Hogan's slap-hinge release

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1287159111' post='2744537']IMO, he did what he had to do to hit his target with his desired shot shape ... educated hands! Notice the "angled hinge" look post impact. Crossover spells possible hook ... "like a rattlesnake in your pocket".

Moe
[/quote]

While I certainly agree to your remarks concerning the crossover release, I cannot fully agree to the "educated hands" comment. If he used "educated hands" he would have tried to hold the wedges over the dead bodies instead letting the kinetic chain release his wrists naturally after impact even if angles post-impact are lost. If we assume your scenario, his slap-hinge release is one of the best proofs he believed in a supremacy of a pivot-guided motion till the end. Hands do nothing conscious in the motion, paraphrasing his words from 5L.

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='willard1523' timestamp='1287159417' post='2744543']
Does it make sense that it's easier to push release irons and slap hinge with woods and driver. That's what I do. Anyway thanks DJ you made me realize that I shouldn't try to keep my shoulders "square" at impact because it doesn't match my release. I've tried that in the past and it was a disaster.
[/quote]

Your welcome, Will. And I think you're not off base with your points. However, the most important in the end (macroscale) is undisturbed flow of kinetic energy to the clubhead without using conscious movements of distal parts of the body.

Cheers

[JD3]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1287157371' post='2744492']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1287155674' post='2744459']
Looks to me like a 74 year old gentleman dealing with the fact that he could not pivot as fast as he did 20, 30 or 40 years earlier. Most logical explanation in my book.

Moe
[/quote]

Very fine, but even if, hypothetically, this was the biggest reason (and not e.g. achieving preferred trajectory in a given moment) he still neither looked for adopting crossover release nor sought for artificial conscious independent of pivot movement of hands/arms to preserve wedges as long as possible. Didn't he ?

Cheers
[/quote]
I agree he wasn't trying to hold the Flying Wedge in his swings, but we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's the look he wanted at impact from the detailed drawing and discussion in 5L's. It was his pivot that preserved them thru impact. In the video you posted where he's getting older he's not extending nearly as much, pivot stalling and hence angles not being preserved quite as long. Not coincidentally, a similar dynamic to those who keep claiming they've mastered his down and thru swing, with an all-encompassing miracle backswing.

[willard1523]

you still have to know where to aim that kinetic chain (educated hands!!!) Although I do agree strongly that the pivot and the club you are using should control the release.

[moehogan]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1287159612' post='2744548']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1287159111' post='2744537']IMO, he did what he had to do to hit his target with his desired shot shape ... educated hands! Notice the "angled hinge" look post impact. Crossover spells possible hook ... "like a rattlesnake in your pocket".

Moe
[/quote]

While I certainly agree to your remarks concerning the crossover release, I cannot fully agree to the "educated hands" comment. If he used "educated hands" he would have tried to hold the wedges over the dead bodies instead letting the kinetic chain release his wrists naturally after impact even if angles post-impact are lost. If we assume your scenario, his slap-hinge release is one of the best proofs he believed in a supremacy of a pivot-guided motion till the end. Hands do nothing conscious in the motion, paraphrasing his words from 5L.

Cheers
[/quote]
My point was that maybe he was able to instinctively (not consciously) react to the slower pivot with a different hand action. If he holds the wedges, isn't it likely that he hits it on the front side of the circle given less/slower rotation? Guess we'll really never know Mr. Hogan's intention ... unless eight can reach him from the grave! LOL.

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1287160638' post='2744578']
I agree he wasn't trying to hold the Flying Wedge in his swings, but we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's the look he wanted at impact from the detailed drawing and discussion in 5L's. It was his pivot that preserved them thru impact. In the video you posted where he's get older he's not extending nearly as much, pivot stalling and hence angles not being preserved quite as long. Not coincidentally, a similar dynamic to those who keep claiming they've mastered his down and thru swing, with an all-encompassing miracle backswing.
[/quote]

Yes, JD, all what you say is true, but ultimately we all will become older and less flexible. What should we do then - to give up pivot-controlled action in fear of crossover release ? I wouldn't think so.

Cheers



[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1287160751' post='2744581']My point was that maybe he was able to instinctively (not consciously) react to the slower pivot with a different hand action. If he holds the wedges, isn't it likely that he hits it on the front side of the circle given less/slower rotation? Guess we'll really never know Mr. Hogan's intention ... unless eight can reach him from the grave! LOL.

Cheers
[/quote]

OK, understood.

Cheers

[Matt1960]

I take a rather simplistic approach to the release. And I feel all release types are largely reactive to the pivot.

With a push release, the pivot is fast and right through impact. This does not give the arms time to slow down so that the club will overtake the hands, till well into the followthrough.
With a slap-hinge, the pivot is slightly slower, and the arms become slightly more active. There becomes a mixture of pivot controlled release and arm release. The club will want to overtake the hands soon after impact, hence the hinge.
With a crossover release, the arms become far more active, and the pivot stalls at impact. The momentum of the club will want to continue past the arms, and the only way to stop a complete breakdown of the wrists is by rotating the club through impact.

To me, Hogan in his later years, say from his 40's did not have as fast a pivot as his earlier years. He will be far more likely to slap-hinge. And this is the scenario I see in the videos.
I dont like to think of too much manipulation of the release, and I think Hogans release is passive to his pivot.

[JD3]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1287161561' post='2744597']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1287160638' post='2744578']
I agree he wasn't trying to hold the Flying Wedge in his swings, but we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's the look he wanted at impact from the detailed drawing and discussion in 5L's. It was his pivot that preserved them thru impact. In the video you posted where he's get older he's not extending nearly as much, pivot stalling and hence angles not being preserved quite as long. Not coincidentally, a similar dynamic to those who keep claiming they've mastered his down and thru swing, with an all-encompassing miracle backswing.
[/quote]

Yes, JD, all what you say is true, but ultimately we all will become older and less flexible. What should we do then - to give up pivot-controlled action in fear of crossover release ? I wouldn't think so.

Cheers

[/quote]
Fair enough, but your OP implied an intent on BH's part to use his hands more. And also that this release may have been a staple throughout his career. I don't know how one could conclude that.

As for adjustments that seniors might make when they start losing flexibility and strength, it'd be good if some teachers chime in.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1287154918' post='2744440']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1287152185' post='2744392']
don't know how you can you say this when most of us don't know/use cottons terms,

..anyway, i'm not sure how cottons terms (which book did he define them?) as you've presented are that relevant, seen as he is flailing the left arm off the back foot from an open stance, and still shotmaking.
[/quote]

It's not about Cotton terms and how many people know them. They are useful, but noone needs to remember their names. What's important is the relationship between clubface motion in relation to ball. People (me included) use to portrait Hogan in memory with a bowed lead wrist (palmar flexion) at impact that lead to hold wedges long after impact. Although I observed and pointed out that it changed post-secret a bit but never saw that it could change to that big degree in a single vid until I found this one.
[b]Do you happen to remember Hogan's wrists lose their angles so early, Joe ? [/b]Be frank and tell me, please.

Cheers
[/quote]
do you have any more slow swing speed open stance ball back swings ? bearing in mind in his prime, post secret pre accident, the harder he swing the straighter he hit it. i just don't see how his swing wouldn't approach this as he took the left leg out of the swing.

i think cotton is making some assumptions/generalizations about what must follow a particular clubface action through impact with the body. which book was it? i have one of them, unread, lol.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1287154918' post='2744440']
Athletic talent ? Every golf swing must contain, among others, these three elements you mentioned because a. the club must be taken up and back; b. the rear elbow joint's RoM is limited. [b]It is simple not possible to avoid shoulder outward/inward rotation as well as pronation/supination of forearms. The main goal is to rotate distal parts perpendicularily to the core and not to time these elements. That's why it is a microscale issue to me.
[/b]And be my guest, dismantle what you want but better do it with arguments, not empty words, told you already. As usually, you stir the [b]thread to disappear later when it appears you have no argumentative answer - which is very weird[/b], since I know for a fact (from our previous discussions) that your an intelligent and very knowledgeable golf swing expert.

Cheers[/quote]


Not possible, well how is it that you / most others don't have the correct sequence/time and amounts of these factors in your swing and thus look unathletic and out of balance when you swing. Its not a critique , its just what it is, you either accept truth or live in a fantasy land.
You talk about arms and hands being distal parts and being suddued to the body.................. the body aint gonna swing the arms...... you would look like a complete moron who had never swung a golf club before

No arguement? Maybe I choose not to give you something , as you claim you never understand due to poor english or its not a macroscale issue........... Its weird alright , I'm on the internet talking golfswing with a bloke in poland... rofl

Do you think HK understood flying wedges , relative to grip, release , shaft lean etc? Whats holding wedges? Is this some wackos interpretation of HK book ?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1287175733' post='2744918']do you have any more slow swing speed open stance ball back swings ? bearing in mind in his prime, post secret pre accident, the harder he swing the straighter he hit it. i just don't see how his swing wouldn't approach this as he took the left leg out of the swing.

i think cotton is making some assumptions/generalizations about what must follow a particular clubface action through impact with the body. which book was it? i have one of them, unread, lol.
[/quote]

Nope, I wish I had. The only one documented post-secret pre-accident is his 1949 driver swing.
As far as I remember from previous fora (mainly one plane golf swing fora) I was active those times it's Cotton's book titled "Golf".
The types are generalizations, of course. But they define very well the relation between clubface and the ball in 3-D. There is no other options than these 3 - either clubhead is stable, or move in horizontal plane or move in vertical plane in relation to a stable ball.


[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1287177948' post='2744973']Not possible, well how is it that you / most others don't have the correct sequence/time and amounts of these factors in your swing and thus look unathletic and out of balance when you swing. Its not a critique , its just what it is, you either accept truth or live in a fantasy land.
You talk about arms and hands being distal parts and being suddued to the body.................. the body aint gonna swing the arms...... you would look like a complete moron who had never swung a golf club before

No arguement? Maybe I choose not to give you something , as you claim you never understand due to poor english or its not a macroscale issue........... Its weird alright , I'm on the internet talking golfswing with a bloke in poland... rofl

Do you think HK understood flying wedges , relative to grip, release , shaft lean etc? Whats holding wedges? Is this some wackos interpretation of HK book ?
[/quote]

At least I am not ashamed of my swing and show it publicly opposite to some certain big-headed guys whose main activity on fora is to criticize others LOL.
BTW, I never considered my swing as biokinetically best which would be ridiculous. However, it is close to be where I want taking into account circumstances I am in and response to my studies.

Next issue - subduing distal parts to pivot does not mean that they are lifeless blobs. They simply do not lead the swing but they are able to react since arms do have hard structure that bears torques.

Show me a thread when I concealed my supposed lack of arguments with bad English and ended my participation in such a discussion on that. Show me. While it's true that I make mistakes in both formulating and comprehending I always do my best to end the exchange of arguments no matter whose arguments are weaker. And last but not least, when saying something is a microscale thing I always explain why I classify it this way and what is much more important in a big picture where a given issue(s) belong. Your words are not only untrue but also insulting. Put it up or shut up.

Yes, I think Kelley did a good job in this area, however, either he purposedly omitted some important issues or was unable to think in macroscale.

Cheers

[eightiron]

whats 45 deg

[eightiron]

don't see it

[Dariusz J.]

Nice you somehow omitted to comments other issues I pointed out...oh well, typical.

45 degrees is the macroscale model angle used to describe roughly the backswing relation of the hips & shoulders to the ground. I use this concept to show that biokinetically correct backswing action is a correct rear body side action up and back both in pelvis area as well as shoulder girdle one. It helps to visualize the need to perform perpendicularity to the core since, at least to myself, the ground is more appealing reference than spine.

[attachment=670756:Hogan45degrees.JPG]

The notion could also be used relative to other sections (downswing, follow through) but that's not so important as its primary usage.

[attachment=670755:Hogan45degrees2.JPG]

Cheers

P.S. As I suggested, it would be better if you start new thread with your questions so that this one remains not threadjacked. Just as Bucket did on TGM where I was expecting you to go on, especially after your first post, but you choose apparently to back off.

[Asleep]

Please keep your posts pointed at the topic and [i][b]not at each other[/b][/i], thanks.

Carry on.

[eightiron]

How is that a measure of 45 deg hip/ shoulders on backswing? one can clearly see his right shoulder is flatish and left side bend is increasing towards the ball and his hip tilt is a result of that motion..................... This all correlates with what I posted about his shoulder motion/ pitch elbow / athletic motion

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1287183341' post='2745085']
How is that a measure of 45 deg hip/ shoulders on backswing? one can clearly see his right shoulder is flatish and left side bend is increasing towards the ball and his hip tilt is a result of that motion..................... This all correlates with what I posted about his shoulder motion/ pitch elbow / athletic motion
[/quote]

First, I said it's rough 45 degrees up and back. I use this because 45* is half a square angle and easy to comprehend.
Indeed, Hogan's shoulders were too flat (I agree to your comment on it - prolly the angle is closer to 40*) but even Hogan does not match the model always. I said 45* in a theoretical macroscale model. That's all.

Cheers

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1287180527' post='2745030']
As far as I remember from previous fora (mainly one plane golf swing fora) I was active those times it's Cotton's book titled "Golf".
[/quote]

i have a different book, so is it hardy or cotton or both? seems more prescriptive then descriptive.

[Matt1960]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1287177948' post='2744973']

You talk about arms and hands being distal parts and being suddued to the body.................. the body aint gonna swing the arms...... you would look like a complete moron who had never swung a golf club before

[/quote]

But, I think the body largely does swing the arms. At least the majority of the lateral motion of the swing. With Hogan, his arms only move about 6" laterally in the backswing and then dont move laterally back in the downswing I do however think there is a little independant vertical motion of the arms, but the vast majority of side to side motion is done by the rotation.
If I stand in my address position and not move my arms at all and just turn, then the arms move with the turn. They move a large distance with just the turn.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1287187174' post='2745151']i have a different book, so is it hardy or cotton or both? seems more prescriptive then descriptive.
[/quote]

I cannot answer this but as far as I know Cotton wrote 10 books, therefore, chances that the book you possess are 10%
I really do not want to idolize Cotton's terms but, as said, they define very well the relation between clubface and the ball in 3-D in the impact zone.


[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1287217105' post='2745611']But, I think the body largely does swing the arms. At least the majority of the lateral motion of the swing. With Hogan, his arms only move about 6" laterally in the backswing and then dont move laterally back in the downswing I do however think there is a little independant vertical motion of the arms, but the vast majority of side to side motion is done by the rotation.
If I stand in my address position and not move my arms at all and just turn, then the arms move with the turn. They move a large distance with just the turn.
[/quote]

Yes, thanks to inertia. Good posts, Matt. Golfers who played in hickory era knew very well this phenomenon, called nowadays a lagging clubhead takeaway. Hogan knew it as well since he started playing golf with hickory shafts. The LCT merges very well with trigger compression phase, BTW.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1287187174' post='2745151']i have a different book, so is it hardy or cotton or both? seems more prescriptive then descriptive.
[/quote]

I cannot answer this but as far as I know Cotton wrote 10 books, therefore, chances that the book you possess are 10%
I really do not want to idolize Cotton's terms but, as said, they define very well the relation between clubface and the ball in 3-D in the impact zone.


[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1287217105' post='2745611']But, I think the body largely does swing the arms. At least the majority of the lateral motion of the swing. With Hogan, his arms only move about 6" laterally in the backswing and then dont move laterally back in the downswing I do however think there is a little independant vertical motion of the arms, but the vast majority of side to side motion is done by the rotation.
If I stand in my address position and not move my arms at all and just turn, then the arms move with the turn. They move a large distance with just the turn.
[/quote]

Yes, thanks to inertia. Good posts, Matt. Golfers who played in hickory era knew very well this phenomenon, called nowadays a lagging clubhead takeaway. Hogan knew it as well since he started playing golf with hickory shafts. The LCT merges very well with trigger compression phase, BTW.

[Garyhard]

D, this thread reminds me more of how the [u]dog wag's its tail[/u] that is if the hands are weilded to the club than is the releases in a kinetic chain through the wrists. The body would then be the kinetic equation, would it ?
So, would the physics from the wieght of the golf club be the tail, so to speak, and the body the kinetic dynamics controlable through conditioning.
If BH hans do nothing conscious in the motion, is wrist control conscious element ?

Tnk again!!!

[michaelgb888]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1287183341' post='2745085']
How is that a measure of 45 deg hip/ shoulders on backswing? one can clearly see his right shoulder is flatish and left side bend is increasing towards the ball and his hip tilt is a result of that motion..................... This all correlates with what I posted about his shoulder motion/ pitch elbow / athletic motion
[/quote]


What are you trying to say here mr eightiron? That right shoulder remains flattish because the right arm/forearm is being kept as low as possible thus sort of pulling down the right shoulder making it flattish?

Do you keep the right forearm/elbow/arm as low/shallow as possible right from the start and bs all the way to top, or do you just make it low/shallow only upon reaching the top and into transition? And how's the latter done, by reattaching the right armpit? By how? Pivot of course is involved, but what conscious move is done in right arm/hand/elbow, if any?

[michaelgb888]

Or, mr eight, are you saying what you're saying bec of tilt of torso/spine away from target at setup?

[tembolo1284]

holy cow...great thread.