Heard an interesting take the other day

[mfm22]

This theory has been in my head for a couple of years.

I do believe that practicing with less GI will help ball striking .

Smaller sweet spot and less offset are main factors[imo]

But I have 2 swings a range swing and a course swing .

On the course I would prefer a GI so I can enjoy scoring
On the range I pull out a more demanding iron once in a while .

This has made me into quite a ho! Pings [not for me],R7 good /easy for course . Mizuno mp52 [more demanding]

And the winner is Mizuno mx 23's good blend for range and play ..love forged feel you know exactly where you hit face and where ball is going

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1310393213' post='3381611']
You can tell when you hit a SGI club poorly, and the fact is, even if you know exactly where you hit the ball (toe, heel etc. ) unless you know how to fix the mishit it is useless information.
[/quote]

I only half agree. I do know when I hit my SGI clubs less-than-perfect, but I have a much harder time discerning what went wrong. With the CB, I know when I mis-hit it, and I also know how I mis-hit it, which helps me make adjustments. When I go in for my weekly lesson, it helps a lot to be able to give the feedback that 'most of my mishits are going off the toe' or whatever my problem du jour happens to be. My instructor can then help me understand why it's happening, and recommend remedies for it.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1310403216' post='3382099']
[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1310393213' post='3381611']
You can tell when you hit a SGI club poorly, and the fact is, even if you know exactly where you hit the ball (toe, heel etc. ) unless you know how to fix the mishit it is useless information.
[/quote]

I only half agree. I do know when I hit my SGI clubs less-than-perfect, but I have a much harder time discerning what went wrong. With the CB, I know when I mis-hit it, and I also know how I mis-hit it, which helps me make adjustments. When I go in for my weekly lesson, it helps a lot to be able to give the feedback that 'most of my mishits are going off the toe' or whatever my problem du jour happens to be. My instructor can then help me understand why it's happening, and recommend remedies for it.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I can tell where I mishit the face even with SGI clubs, but we are all different.

[NormG]

[quote name='npark' timestamp='1310361577' post='3381100']
Interesting, so if this is a valid theory and I used to solidly strike my 962's and more recently my 775's (carrying an 8 HCI) I should possibly be looking at some sort of MB design to continue to "develope to the level of my clubs"? I am seriously contemplating getting the MP-53's in 3-7i and a full set of the MP-68's. I would start out using only the 8-PW from the 68's but then start swapping out the 53's for the 68's (one by one) in the 7-3i as my game 'developes' eventially having a full set of blades...assuming I don't get held up on one of the long irons.
[/quote]


You may end up being amazed how easy the longer irons in the MP-68's are to hit.

[zodiackill]

Really depends on the person. I played Nike slingshots for half a year. wasnt even close to a good ball striker and probably a 30+ handi. I switched to mizunos because I wanted the feedback. Forced me to work crazy hard at the game so I could hit those. 2 years later, still have the same clubs and couldn't be happier. Plus I'm a single digit now, just a plus.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='zodiackill' timestamp='1310403727' post='3382128']
Really depends on the person. I played Nike slingshots for half a year. wasnt even close to a good ball striker and probably a 30+ handi. I switched to mizunos because I wanted the feedback. Forced me to work crazy hard at the game so I could hit those. 2 years later, still have the same clubs and couldn't be happier. Plus I'm a single digit now, just a plus.
[/quote]
But it wasn't the clubs, it was the "work[ing] crazy hard" that improved your game. You could have done that with the GI clubs.

[zodiackill]

I could have, but they wouldn't have given me the motivation. Plus the mizunos were harsh and I could tell when I hit it bad. The nikes were like eh bad shot smad shot.

[Fundadores]

 

Interesting take. However, you are still assuming that forgiveness encourages and promotes sloppiness, which is not true. Some people may accept hitting off the toe all the time as their 'normal' swing, but there is no reason why one cannot learn correct swing mechanics using game improvement clubs. The type of club used is more or less irrelevant.

 

Agreeed. You can improve your swing with a SGI club, the difference is you MUST improve your golf swing with blades

 

BTW I think Misterlau said it the best.

[Interpol]

 

Interesting take. However, you are still assuming that forgiveness encourages and promotes sloppiness, which is not true. Some people may accept hitting off the toe all the time as their 'normal' swing, but there is no reason why one cannot learn correct swing mechanics using game improvement clubs. The type of club used is more or less irrelevant.

 

Agreeed. You can improve your swing with a SGI club, the difference is you MUST improve your golf swing with blades

 

BTW I think Misterlau said it the best.

Either way, does it matter? If I shoot 72 using SGI clubs while you shoot the same score with blades, does that make me less of a golfer?

 

Ultimately all that matters is the score. If i can become a scratch golfer with poor swing mechanics, why should I care? Until the rules of golf are changed to take aesthetic technique into consideration when determining a winner, I'm perfectly happy using equipment that helps me to shoot a lower score.

[alexgmbh]

You can tell a pure vs mis-hit with any kind of iron. It's how bad the ball flight is on that mis-hit that changes the most.

[Shambles]

The type of club used is more or less irrelevant.




This is a posting I agree with, with reservations.

The design of the club is important when you have some quirk in your swing that need a subtle equipment fix. Other areas wherein club design is important are mental errors that require equipment help such as a club with a sharp leading edge to give you confidence in being able to slip the leading edge under the ball, or a club with a thicker and well rounded leading edge for someone with a steeper downswing who needs a bit of a slide to get the club face to the ball. The offset helps reduce the tendency to leave the club open at impact though it cannot be a guarantee. I doubt there are any features in club design that can guarantee a result, but there are many features that help a little bit and can be very valuable if you are already that close to a solution. That little bit can push you over into excessive belief in how good you truly are as a golfer.

I don't believe a student needs to be flogged into learning. On the other hand, anything to make learning easier is much recommended.

I don't believe there is any such animal as a game improvement club. However there are features in a club's design that help and they are not restricted to cavities or offsets or large flanges. It's really a matter of matching the club to the player and, if the cost bother's you, matching the player to the club. In short, either do an equipment fix or do a swing fix. Both work, but learning is more reliable long term.

Bottom line is still learning how to Golf. It's not a matter of hitting alone. You also need to know how to hit the right part of the target, how to hit the ball high or low as need dictates and how to correctly assess the effect of your lie on your next stroke and what adjustments you need to make to your swing to be able to hit your target.

A raw beginner does not have equipment choice problems. They are all wrong unless they have the magic aspect of belonging to him. In such a case, the clubs you own are the best in the world until you have learned enough to be able to personally choose a set that has the added features you feel you need.


Shambles

[Justin_Ellis]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1310393213' post='3381611']
Practicing a correct swing (one that works) is ALL that will make you better. You can practice 'till the cows come home with blades and if you don't have a workable swing, you will just hit them poorly.

You can tell when you hit a SGI club poorly, and the fact is, even if you know exactly where you hit the ball (toe, heel etc. ) unless you know how to fix the mishit it is useless information.

You should get the clubs that allow you to enjoy the game the most. Practice with what you plan to play. Get a few lessons if that is what you need.
[/quote]
I could not agree with you more. The clubs don't make the player. Your club selection should be based around two things in my opinion first and foremost.
1)The trajectory assistance you require
2)What clubs inspire the most confidence for you to make good swings
Players CB's and Blades by design have a flatter trajectory that most GI and super GI irons. There are tons of great players with slower swing speeds that can't and should not play a straight blade due to this fact.

Ultimately play what works and what makes you happiest and you will enjoy the game more. I have been playing J33 Combos since their inception and would play them till I wore a hole through them if the stupid rules did not require a change for me to play in high level events.

[HackerD]

[quote name='Carson33' timestamp='1310392803' post='3381599']
I understand the thought behind it. However, there is a cheaper solution. Many years ago as I was becoming a better golfer. I got my hands on a Mizuno MP-29 5-iron. I was playing Tommy Armour 845's at the time. I would go to the range, warm up with my 845's, and then I would take that blade and hit shot after shot making sure I made solid contact. I got so good with shaping shots...hitting them high, low, draw, fade..straight. Then I would pull any 845 and I could do anything with it. It gave me so much confidence that when I went to the course, my scores dropped drastically.

Go order a 5 or 6 iron in a "player's iron"...incorporate it into your practice...you will then become a better ball striker.
[/quote]

Interesting idea. Anyone else do something like it?

[Vindog]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1310403845' post='3382137']
But it wasn't the clubs, it was the "work[ing] crazy hard" that improved your game. You could have done that with the GI clubs.
[/quote]

ding ding ding. We have a winner!

I can tell when I hit a bad shot and even though I play with Ping g5, I strive to hit the ball in the center. Doesn't always work out, but that's what I go for. Once I think that I've worn out the center of the face [i]then[/i] I'll "move up". Or maybe I won't "move up" at all...

But in response to the OP, I think that's a sound theory in situations where a player wants to take his/her game to the next level. For the weekend warrior or the casual player, I don't think it would be advisable, but that's just me

[setter02]

[quote name='Fundadores' timestamp='1310370367' post='3381230']
The flaw in your reasoning is that it´s not possible that it takes 2-3 times longer to learn how to hit the sweet spot with blades vs SGI clubs. It takes the same time. It´s just that an SGI club is more forgiving for poor shots, so the learning curve will be, or at least feel, smoother. [b]In 3 years time most players will probably have learnt to have a consistent swing and learn how to hit the sweet spot[/b], both on a blade and an SGI club. But I think, and that just by observation, that some players, due to the forgiving nature of SGI clubs, for example continiously keep hitting the toe of the club, just because they can. They have not yet been punished for that mistake. If or when they buy a harder club, the will be forced then to correct that flaw, or they will go back to more forgiving clubs. You will painstakingly learn with blades that a toe hit is a big no no. Hence you have to be thorough setting up your stance and keeping the correct distance to the ball.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I think you can as a beginner, intermediate or advanced player choose a hard club. It might take longer time to master, but IMHO it will force you to be more thorough.
[/quote]

Please reread this and possible change your statement. I know people who have played blades there entire life and have not approached any consistent swing let alone change in scoring. But they can't let go because that "one pure ball" is good enough. Everyone plays for their own reasons, but that is just plain stupid.

I'm not in the camp that buying equipment that you "hope" you can one day actually play well is a good idea. I'm for buying what ever you want if you don't care about playing well.

As for having a "solid looking swing" and a consistent result producing swing, those two things can be amazing far a part.

[Jaggie99]

[quote name='Carson33' timestamp='1310392803' post='3381599']
I understand the thought behind it. However, there is a cheaper solution. Many years ago as I was becoming a better golfer. I got my hands on a Mizuno MP-29 5-iron. I was playing Tommy Armour 845's at the time. I would go to the range, warm up with my 845's, and then I would take that blade and hit shot after shot making sure I made solid contact. I got so good with shaping shots...hitting them high, low, draw, fade..straight. Then I would pull any 845 and I could do anything with it. It gave me so much confidence that when I went to the course, my scores dropped drastically.

Go order a 5 or 6 iron in a "player's iron"...incorporate it into your practice...you will then become a better ball striker.
[/quote]


Tour Striker Pro 7 iron. If you can hit this puppy consistently on the range(eliminate worm burners), you can hit players irons despite mid-high handicap. Caveat is you cant shape shots with it but it teaches critical fundamental of lag and striking down on the ball.

[jpat59]

I tried this, hearing this logic and thinking well...I really like these clubs but I knew in the back of my mind they were a little bit too advanced for me. It turned out that having that know in the back of my mind caused a lot of frustration over bad shots, because I thought that it could be easily fixed with a more forgiving iron. I recently changed to a more forgiving set, I had taylormade rac tp mbs and now mx 300's and I have to say I could not be happier.

[OK_Golf]

I love this idea ... but I'm wrong.

Last weekend played with two very good (very different) players. #1 upper 50's, Ping Zing2 Irons went 72-72 through two rounds (standard scoring); #2 30's, Cally X-20 irons (not X-20 tours) went 66-73 through two rounds. Both great ball strikers and usually score from 70 to 75), #2 missed at least two 3' putts in the second round. They don't "need" blades or "players clubs" and the regular GI irons they play save a stroke or two a round by helping their few off-center hits. Also, If you have a consistent swing you can "work" almost any regular GI iron, because a small adjustment in set-up and/or release can make it happen.

Just my $0.02 ... this won't stop me from re-gripping an older set of Wilson FG-51 tour blades I have, for the occasional range session or practice round.

I guess my advice is, if you are "improving" then get a regular GI set and you'll be just fine. Fitting shaft weight/flex to swing speed/tempo and attack angle are probably the most important things to get right, not the size of the club head.

[leftypga]

[quote name='Jaggie99' timestamp='1310566485' post='3387899']
Tour Striker Pro 7 iron. If you can hit this puppy consistently on the range(eliminate worm burners), you can hit players irons despite mid-high handicap. Caveat is you [b]cant shape shots with it [/b]but it teaches critical fundamental of lag and striking down on the ball.
[/quote]

I"m not sure about the 7 iron, but i spent about an hour with the Tour Stirker Pro 5 iron. Just work with it a bit, you will find that you will eventually be able to work the ball. I've never had a problem striking down on the ball. I just wanted to try it. I could work the ball both ways, as well as control shot trajectory very well with this club. Funny thing was that I actually hit it better than my own irons.

[Interpol]

[quote name='setter02' timestamp='1310563133' post='3387758']
I'm not in the camp that buying equipment that you "hope" you can one day actually play well is a good idea.[/quote]
Agree. By his reasoning, everyone should be playing X and XX-flex shafts to improve swing speed.

[quote]I'm for buying what ever you want if you don't care about playing well.

As for having a "solid looking swing" and a consistent result producing swing, those two things can be amazing far a part.
[/quote]
What do you mean by "playing well"? Shooting a low score or looking good swinging a club?

[zodiackill]

See I agree with you guys actually. My mp62's helped ME. I'm not saying anybody needs to try that strategy, but I have found for me that is just what helps me learn the best. And while I love my mizuno clubs, I will probably switch to the ping s series once these clubs become worn out. I have heard they are slightly more forgiving as long as you have a decently consistent swing, while retaining players qualities. Not saying GI are any lesser, PERSONALLY I prefer a gamers iron. Just the way it looks appeals to me and inspires confidence at address.

[npark]

All great feedback, I appreciate it guys. I think overall this helped me affirm my desicion to buy a complete set of MP-68's and then 3-7 of the 53's and work in the 68 mid and long irons as I gain confidence...like I mentioned I am a pretty solid ball striker and I have a higher than average ball flight. Now it is on to fine tuning the shaft choice, GS here I come to make the selection between the PX 6.0 and a softstepped X100

[Love2Slice]

I play blades, but I'm not cocky about it, I'm a super high handicapper, and I don't like the way SGI irons feel, look, and sound, I like the snap of blades, and the pure feel when I do make solid contact.

[hef63303]

I still think this is like buying pants that are too small, expecting to lose weight to fit in to them.

[npark]

[quote name='hef63303' timestamp='1310610539' post='3389751']
I still think this is like buying pants that are too small, expecting to lose weight to fit in to them.
[/quote]


hahaha, that is a funny analogy...glad I got my fat guy clothes on right now or I might be offended :-p.

While I can't speak for others, I carry around an 8HCI and am already used to playing a CB with my last sets being 962's and 775's...so this will just be the next almost natural progression for me. Plus I will also have the 'tweeners' with the MP-53 mid/long irons in case I lose confidence or coming back from the winter slump. Maybe that's like having the fat and the skinny pants in the closet depending if it's lake/beach season or Thanksgiving/Christmas eating season, lol.

[moonshine]

[quote name='zodiackill' timestamp='1310404565' post='3382164']
I could have, but they wouldn't have given me the motivation. Plus the mizunos were harsh and I could tell when I hit it bad. The nikes were like eh bad shot smad shot.
[/quote]
I bet you learned a bit about getting up and down in that process as well....all of us are naturally better at some things than others. Practicing the bad stuff is what makes the scores go down, not clubs.

[gmetcalf18]

It all depends, its true for me but not for many friends who try to play blades or small CBs with little to no luck. I have a set of j33 blades, j33cbs, r7tps, and used to have X20s which is GI to SGI IMO, when the blades come out, every single shot is lined up more accurately, every single set up is spot on, every single back swing is controlled, etc. with the r7 tps, I can get a little lazy and still have decent results but nothing near the workability of the blades. If I see a smaller club head I know it has to be dead nuts on and every swing is as good of a swing as I can put on it. I just got a set of TEE CNC "blades" they're small CBs but I can't wait to get those shafted up I'm already confident thats going to be a happy medium for me

[schoech99]

I bought a mp-67 demo 6 iron from edwin watts for ten bucks and was one of my better purchases to help my golf game. I use it to practice with as a miss hit is so harsh you can really feel and see it. My gamer irons are 701's and a miss hit is definitely not as harsh and a little thin, a little fat, or a little on the toe doesn't really matter as far as flight and distance. Guess it's just psychological as the results of a bad swing is so evident with the 67 it helps me focus on really making a good downward stike with tempo. I don't think I would game a whole set though in an effort to improve my scores.

[RyanNoodles]

I did this by accident. I used to play Callaway game improvers and then I naively bought the x-forged (CBs) when they came out in 2007 because I liked the look of them. It actually turned out to be great for my game. It made me slow my swing down and be a more consistent ball-striker. I used to be the 'bad ball-striker' guy and now my playing partners know me as the 'good ball-striker' guy. I think you can get a false sense of security with GIs. A slight mis-hit with those is quite far from the centre, whereas a slight mis-hit with CBs or MBs is still going to be a fairly consistent swing. IMHO it developed my swing into something much more consistent as I learnt to hit the ball better. It also taught me how to work the ball better.

I have ordered Callaway x-musclebacks and am looking to make the next step in the same way as before.

The harder to hit clubs really made me rise to the challenge. I agree that people shouldn't go straight to blades. They would just be disheartened and more likely to give up. I think the key is to make the jumps manageable; so GI-CB-MB.

I also have heard a lot said for practicing with blades and playing competitions with GIs. Altghough, this strategy would be expensive, having two sets of clubs. It would probably also create inconsistencies in you gam, which wouldn't help.

If you're thinking about it then I would say it's a great idea, but don't make the jump too difficult. Also, I think you need to play fairly regularly to see any benefit. No point in jumping for CBs to Blades and then playing only once a month; you'll never get used to them.

Ryan

[tpred]

I totally buy into the theory. Players irons have made me a better ball striker. I've tried GI since the switch and I find my swing gets sloppy since these clubs are so forgiving. Also, feedback to me is important and you definitely get more of that out of a players irons.