What is the best forged irons in golf?

[jmvargas]

....all things being equal there is NO domestic US iron that can compete with the top line of a japanese brand in terms of quality control....

"feel" is a totally different story...

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='Vegaman' timestamp='1322655370' post='3870441']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1322591656' post='3866893']
[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322575492' post='3865819']
Are there two levels of quality for Endo?
[/quote]
Yes they have a forging house in Japan and another in Thailand. My understanding is that the Japan location forges the Epon, early Callaway Proto's and other JDM heads. The Thailand location forges all the American heads (Nike, Callaway, etc...).
[/quote]

They have a plant in Thailand, yes. But they of course dont have lesser standards when it comes to quality and the forging process which of course is the same. Anthing else would be corporate suicide.
Of course people anyway prefer the MIJ label for emotional reasons, just like I would prefer a german made BMW instead of an american made one, if I had a choice. If there is no choice then it would be a non issue.

The important thing is that its a BMW, or in the case of forged irons, Endo forged.
[/quote]


[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1322669261' post='3871127']
[quote name='Ugo DeRosa' timestamp='1322593204' post='3867021']
There is no way that there are 2 different levels of quality at Endo (Japan facility putting out superior product to the Thailand facility). I am sure the Thailand facility produces just as good of quality as the Niigata facililty in Japan.

I can't see Callaway, Cobra, Nike etc. saying "hey Endo, we don't mind you skimping on the manufacturing process with our irons, so go ahead take some shortcuts or use inferior processes materials if you like, we don't really care".
[/quote]

[i]I absolute CAN see Callaway, Cobra, Nike etc. saying "hey Endo, WE WANT IT CHEAPER so we don't mind you skimping on the manufacturing process with our irons, so go ahead take some shortcuts or use inferior processes materials if you like, we don't really care".[/i]
[/quote]
I have zero doubts that Endo uses lesser materials, less quality control and many other varying shortcuts in order to produce a cheaper product that the American companies can sell with the Endo name at the desired price point. There are no other logical reasons of why they would have another plant specifically for American forgings. I understand that it cost much less to operate in Thailand than Japan but that does not justify having two separate operating plants. The only justification is having the Thailand plant essentially be a separate entity that operates on another set of rules.

Nike, Cobra, Callaway do not want to attempt to sell irons in the US for $1,500 just because of the Endo name. Joe Blow has no idea what Endo is and does not care. If they can sell the same irons with the same Endo name for $900 than they can get Joe Blow and the Golf WRX member who does know what Endo is. Think about it,… wishful and naive thinking will be the only justification to thinking the two products are the same.…Always remember the bottom line $$$$.

[78blades]

Its still speculation.

[Vegaman]

What justifies having a plant in Thailand is production cost and the ever stronger japanese Yen. And that's VERY much reason enough to have two plants. Toyota, Honda and many other car brands have factories in Thailand too, you think a Toyota made in Thailand is lesser quality than a Japanese or US made one too? Why do you think car makers and companies in every industry have plants all over the world if not because it is less costly to operate factories in these countries? Im baffled by your statement that cost cant be the only reason, since it's the most important reason of all. A child would understand that.

When a club brand contacts Endo to do their forgings they can of course specify what they want and what they are prepared to pay. But if a maker asks Endo to make a 1020 steel forging i highly doubt Endo have different grades of 1020, since it then would be called something else than 1020. The steel is the same quality, the machines doing the forging is for sure imported to Thailand from Japan and will be the same as Endo Japan. The reason they chose to make in Thailand is probably because the Thai plant higher capacity and because it's outside Japan the price will be cheaper. Plus, if a maker wants thousands and thousands of heads they will of course get a better price than other customers.

If a maker is not prepared to pay for Endo quality forging then they will go to China or Taiwan and have less advanced forging houses do their stuff.

But Endo quality, technical ability, QC and efficiency is legendary and to many makers the slighty higher cost is well worth paying compared to less advanced competitors.

[Geohans]

So is titleist actually forged at Endo Thailand?

[78blades]

Thank you vegaman for your post. Very informative.

[Ugo DeRosa]

[quote name='Vegaman' timestamp='1322827316' post='3879863']
What justifies having a plant in Thailand is production cost and the ever stronger japanese Yen. And that's VERY much reason enough to have two plants. Toyota, Honda and many other car brands have factories in Thailand too, you think a Toyota made in Thailand is lesser quality than a Japanese or US made one too? Why do you think car makers and companies in every industry have plants all over the world if not because it is less costly to operate factories in these countries? Im baffled by your statement that cost cant be the only reason, since it's the most important reason of all. A child would understand that.

When a club brand contacts Endo to do their forgings they can of course specify what they want and what they are prepared to pay. But if a maker asks Endo to make a 1020 steel forging i highly doubt Endo have different grades of 1020, since it then would be called something else than 1020. The steel is the same quality, the machines doing the forging is for sure imported to Thailand from Japan and will be the same as Endo Japan. The reason they chose to make in Thailand is probably because the Thai plant higher capacity and because it's outside Japan the price will be cheaper. Plus, if a maker wants thousands and thousands of heads they will of course get a better price than other customers.

If a maker is not prepared to pay for Endo quality forging then they will go to China or Taiwan and have less advanced forging houses do their stuff.

But Endo quality, technical ability, QC and efficiency is legendary and to many makers the slighty higher cost is well worth paying compared to less advanced competitors.
[/quote]

+1 My sentiments exactly.

Also, one other comment in response to Scratchswinger's post- none of the OEM's using Endo's services markets the fact that Endo does the forging, so I would disagree with Scratchswinger's comment about Callaway and others using Endo just to be able to use that name, then deliver supposedly second-rate Endo quality (and Endo does not have two different levels of quality). As Scratchswinger points out, Joe Blow doesn't even have a clue who Endo is, so it would not make sense for them to try to market the fact that Endo produces the clubs.

Having owned some Endo Thailand irons (X-Forged, X-Protos), and having a set of Epon wedges- admittedly a small sample size, there is nothing superior about the finish, or the feel of the Niigata-produced clubs. I guess Scratchswinger and I will just have to agree to disagree.

[mrmgolf]

I don't normally post but I have to add the RC Forged by Royal Collection. Look beautiful at address and are ridiculously good.

[North Shore Golfer21]

One of my all time favorites is Nike's SQ MachSpeed forged. Great forgiveness and feel.

[CUTigers2011]

....again

[dunn]

since golf originated in scotland, ireland or whatever.............you would think some of the best manufacturers would be over there.........why is japan the leader in equipment? there stuff is beautiful, just the lines on almost every forged club out of japan is incredible.....you can really tell a difference, thats why i buy mizuno here in the US, just holding a mp59 up to a TM, ap2, cleveland or whatever you can tell the difference

[dunn]

[quote name='Stretch' timestamp='1321167793' post='3794549']
[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1321148826' post='3793549']
Would love to see a few more angles. especially one from address

If these are as good as the wedges they are going to be as good as it gets.

Nice pick up.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.chikaradesigns.com/products/mb1_images.html"]http://www.chikarade...mb1_images.html[/url]
[/quote]


i may have to check out chikara.......i loved just about everything they had........that putter has the most beautiful look at address, their irons are incredible looking.....whats the prices irons, wedge and putter and whats the feel like?

[dunn]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1322669261' post='3871127']
[quote name='Ugo DeRosa' timestamp='1322593204' post='3867021']
There is no way that there are 2 different levels of quality at Endo (Japan facility putting out superior product to the Thailand facility). I am sure the Thailand facility produces just as good of quality as the Niigata facililty in Japan.

I can't see Callaway, Cobra, Nike etc. saying "hey Endo, we don't mind you skimping on the manufacturing process with our irons, so go ahead take some shortcuts or use inferior processes materials if you like, we don't really care".
[/quote]

[i]I absolute CAN see Callaway, Cobra, Nike etc. saying "hey Endo, WE WANT IT CHEAPER so we don't mind you skimping on the manufacturing process with our irons, so go ahead take some shortcuts or use inferior processes materials if you like, we don't really care".[/i]
[/quote]
x2.....actually form the big co i would expect it, no doubt about it.......profits is their no 1 goal period

[Outlier]

Please to speak clearly....Leith and Vargas....I don't get your point(s)?


[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1315450821' post='3549897']
[quote name='Leith' timestamp='1315449182' post='3549813']
"What is the best?" That begs the question, "For whom?"

In the USA, the "market" is convinced that forged blades are for good players. Consequently, every forged iron offered to the American market is essentially the same thing. I'm thinking size, sole grind, offset, shaft. They're all made to get the Club Champion to switch to (BRAND X) next year.

Not so in Japan. When you look at Japanese domestic market iron designs, you find a lot of very good models that are very large in size. In Japan, high handicap players want forged irons. Is that just because they have "traditional values?"

I think that the undiscovered sweet spot in the Japanese forged iron market is the "game improvement" category. In the USA, no single digit handicapper worth his spikes would even demo a "game improvement" model. That's a mistake that reveals a lot about American golfer tunnel vision.

Mark my words, good players will soon discover "forgiving forgings". If forgings were really easy to hit, the "posers" wouldn't have to go straight to their cars. They could join us for drinks and laughs.

Add one more fact.

In Japan, the highest honor goes to the lightest shaft. Who is thinking about playing their Miura irons weighted eight grams heavy, mounted on Aerotech 70 gram shafts, internally counterbalanced.

You don't have to wonder if it works. You can "see" the results in radar tracings from the Flightscope or Trackman.

I'm looking for a little flame back for this recommendation. I'm saying plus 9 gram heads, 70 gram graphite, counterweights - for a "good player".

Or, as the Gypsy used to say "whatever works".

Regards, Leith Anderson, Golf Lab, San Carlos, CA
[/quote]





+1....i have been following this thinking as i got older..

i was fortunate to get a mint set of all original tourstage V7000s 2 years ago with tour design TDi-60H R flex graphite shafts weighing 64 grams..

the clubs performed superbly--for me--and when i got a set Adams CB2s recently i had them reshafted with Adams grafalloy prolaunch-hl blue R flex graphite shafts weighing 72 grams..

both sets had the exact same mass weight per club all throughtout the 5-GW and i can now interchange them anytime without any problem as the feel of both sets is identical...

i also have (3) sub-300gram drivers which i can interchange without any problem....

i am 65 and my driver ss is 95mph and am a believer in ultralite drivers and lightweight iron shafts..

i can still get 240-250 yds with my drivers and my normal 150 yd club is a 6-iron--swinging easily..
[/quote]

[Journey 2 Scratch]

NIKE PROCOMBOS!!!!

 

So I was told that the same Forging that Nike uses is the same Forging as Mizuno , identical is that true?

[dunn]

NIKE PROCOMBOS!!!!

 

So I was told that the same Forging that Nike uses is the same Forging as Mizuno , identical is that true?

no its not.........grain flow on the mizuno

[Geohans]

I think Mizuno has exclusive use of a forging house in Hiroshima.

[littlebigtrain]

Miura gets my vote - hands of god

[littlebigtrain]

You guys are nuts. Whether it is forged or cast is irrelevant. A good cast club can feel just has good has a forged, It is in your mind people.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='littlebigtrain' timestamp='1324271042' post='3959081']
You guys are nuts. Whether it is forged or cast is irrelevant. A good cast club can feel just has good has a forged, It is in your mind people.
[/quote]
A good cast club can feel good on solid strikes, but they feel essentially the same on misses. This is where forged shines, being able to feel your misses and learning to "coach" yourself is one the benefits of forged vs cast.

[Vegaman]

Miura gets my vote - hands of god

 

Just to clear things up, the "hands of god" moniker came from his ability as a club grinder and have nothing to do with the forging clubs.

[tbowles411]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1324276061' post='3959233']
[quote name='littlebigtrain' timestamp='1324271042' post='3959081']
You guys are nuts. Whether it is forged or cast is irrelevant. A good cast club can feel just has good has a forged, It is in your mind people.
[/quote]
A good cast club can feel good on solid strikes, but they feel essentially the same on misses. This is where forged shines, being able to feel your misses and learning to "coach" yourself is one the benefits of forged vs cast.
[/quote]
+1

Countless times when I used cast clubs, when I mishit a club, I would say, "Why is that going right? It felt great?" They felt the same all the way across the face. Now, I say to myself, "Missed it left, need to get lucky" the moment it strikes the face. The ability to self-diagnose is very welcome.

[TWshoot67]

[quote name='JuanSeries' timestamp='1315309430' post='3544950']
Anything forged by Endo
[/quote]

I wouldn't say anything by Endo as there are some not so great designs out there done by endo. But yes ENDO is one of the best along with Chuo(mizuno's forging house) and Miura along with Hoffman when USA use to manufacture! It's all subjective so no one can really say one is better then the other.

[TWshoot67]

NIKE PROCOMBOS!!!!

 

So I was told that the same Forging that Nike uses is the same Forging as Mizuno , identical is that true?

 

I believe they were Endo of Japan. Just like the blades that were done in limited quantities when Nike First got in the iron business. Rumors of the first 2,500 sets. Who really knows as it always seems to be top secret. Heck they could be getting them done in China like TM does.

[ricknickers]

I can't say which are the best but I can say that some players are swayed buy price. I just put McGregor VIP's in my bag. Classic looking, buttery soft, comes stock with KBS. The best part is the price appx 1/2 what Mizzies run not to mention some of the special order imports.

[williamevanl]

alright, I need someone to lend me a Miura blade so I can try one of these out...

[Staffer]

[quote name='tbowles411' timestamp='1324323796' post='3961297']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1324276061' post='3959233']
[quote name='littlebigtrain' timestamp='1324271042' post='3959081']
You guys are nuts. Whether it is forged or cast is irrelevant. A good cast club can feel just has good has a forged, It is in your mind people.
[/quote]
A good cast club can feel good on solid strikes, but they feel essentially the same on misses. This is where forged shines, being able to feel your misses and learning to "coach" yourself is one the benefits of forged vs cast.
[/quote]
+1

Countless times when I used cast clubs, when I mishit a club, I would say, "Why is that going right? It felt great?" They felt the same all the way across the face. Now, I say to myself, "Missed it left, need to get lucky" the moment it strikes the face. The ability to self-diagnose is very welcome.
[/quote]

Hmmm...no...feedback is about weight distribution. A blade gives better feedback than a perimeter weighted head.

That said, I havent played a cast iron since the Ping Eye 2:s, and that was a while ago.

[ltglf]

Epon

[freehb]

[quote name='potuna' timestamp='1315437542' post='3549266']
IMHO Onoff 247 CBs. Miura forged and similar to 202s but for me much easier to hit especially the long irons. I carry the 3 iron and have no problem hitting it. Very hard to find though.
[/quote]

I would have to vote for the 247s. I miss mine, should never have sold them. Playing yonex nanov tour forged CBS now, they are getting reshafted as even though they are forged from s25 Steele, they felt harsher then my on offs. The nanovs are quite beautiful in my opinion but not as good a fit for me. Have gamed the Mira mc102s. Liked them third best.

[penleyeta]

681, 680, tour issue cg1, slazenger crown ltd., tourney custom 985s, 29s, 14s, 695mb, jimmy demaret 69s,1025 don white vip, mizuno JM rust, hogan PC, gf51,tour model custom grind 85-85,
basic order- all excellent- own and have played all