Is EVERY putt makeable?

[pingB]

[quote name='oneunderbogey' timestamp='1318426136' post='3662105']
[quote name='pingB' timestamp='1318425995' post='3662103']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1318404528' post='3661601']
I think we are confusing probability with possibility. All putts are makeable, ide say it's kind of akin to monkeys and typewriters.
[/quote]

this..


every single put is makeable.. you wouldn't be putting if there was a tree in front of you or if you had to bounce it off of 3 things to get in the hole. If you are stepping up to the ball with a putter it is POSSIBLE that the ball will go in. Probability falls off a cliff outside of 15 feet, but that doesn't mean the putt isn't makeable..
[/quote]

This isn't true sorry. 99+% of putts are makeable but physically some cannot be made.
[/quote]

then why on earth would you be putting?

[pingB]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1318428679' post='3662281']
[quote name='PaddyK' timestamp='1318427864' post='3662225']
I would like you to eleborate on this statement. Offer me some evidence.
[/quote]

Somewhere I have seen numbers on how the hole shrinks as ball speed increases. At a certain point (I don't know how fast), the hole has an effective size of zero.

Would you agree that if you stand 5 feet from the hole...flat putt...and hit it HARD straight at the hole, that it cannot go in?

Oh, these putts that can't be made certainly are few and far between. I've got one green in mind that has a huge tier change running across it. If a ball was set on the top of the hill (the top edge of the tier change) and let go, I think it would be moving too fast to drop into a cup placed close to the bottom of that sharp slope. Unfortunately I don't see myself making the trip back to this course to test my theory.
[/quote]

nah this is wrong..

it might be very hard for it to go in.. but it's still possible to hit the lip just right and fall. Unless they slop a green so much that the ball is actually falling and not rolling.. which i've never heard of nor is that even relevant because its not actual golf.. its some sort of whack thing someone created..


I've seen putts go way too fast and hit the back lip and actually bounce up and fall back in.

No matter what if the ball can get to the hole it is POSSIBLE that i can fall... Probably those mysterious numbers you saw but can't offer up said that the hole shrinks to 0.1 or something.. but there is still a chance..

[dlam]

Do you remember that green at the US open bout 10 years ago that was so fast and severe slope that they had to water the green inbetween groups cause it was just so unfair.

If the ball was above the hole it was nearly impossible putt.
The only chance was to stay below the hole and give yourself a uphill putt.

PS just reference it, it was 7th hole Shinnicock 2004 US open.

[lander215]

Of course there are putts that just can't be made!

Otherwise I'd be a complete liar as I walked away from that 3 putt muttering how it just couldn't be made from there.



On the serious side, every putt I attempt I have the mindset of where to hit it to go in, every putt. But on the long ones, while I'm hitting it to where I want it to go in, I'm happy with the lag leaving me the tap in.

[highergr0und]

I've run into some terrible spots on greens where it was impossible to putt to the hole without running it off and back onto the putting surface....... The 18th green at my club course has a few "dead" spots depending on pin location, although you just have to take it into the fringe and hope for a good roll coming back on. I guess it's still technically makeable though however improbable

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='pingB' timestamp='1318431523' post='3662485']
I've seen putts go way too fast and hit the back lip and actually bounce up and fall back in.
[/quote]

Those putts weren't moving too fast then.

Okay, I'll refine my stance on the subject a bit.

IF the only way to get the ball to the hole requires the putt to be moving SO fast that it has to hit the back of the hole dead square, pop up in the air and fall in...then that putt should be CONSIDERED unmakeable. Strategically, it wouldn't make sense to try to make that putt; better to attempt to find a good place to leave the ball for the next putt.

[PreppySlapCut]

I play at one of the better courses in the world. We have very, very sloped greens that were designed when they couldn't get the stimp above 5. Now, when they get rolling 11+, there are several greens which have putts that are 100% unmakeable. There are creative routes which you can take to keep the ball CLOSE to the hole, but there are putts that, in the physical universe we occupy, can not be made.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1318434436' post='3662737']
I play at one of the better courses in the world. We have very, very sloped greens that were designed when they couldn't get the stimp above 5. Now, when they get rolling 11+, there are several greens which have putts that are 100% unmakeable. There are creative routes which you can take to keep the ball CLOSE to the hole, but there are putts that, in the physical universe we occupy, can not be made.
[/quote]

Right! People seem to forget this. The limit of the ball being unstoppable is around a combination of 16 for %slope + stimp. So if that downhill putt is long enough to gather enough speed before it hits the hole, it will skip right over it.

For example if it were a 2 tiered green and you're on the upper tier with the hole 15 feet down the slope of the lower tier, you still have to get the ball rolling with enough speed to make it to the lower tier. Then if it's straight down a 5% grade, stimping a 10 or 11, the ball will have way too much speed to drop in the hole, no matter how centered it hits it. These kind of situations are rare but they do occur on some nicer older courses that were originally designed to roll at a 6 or 7 stimp.

[dlam]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1318435007' post='3662791']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1318434436' post='3662737']
I play at one of the better courses in the world. We have very, very sloped greens that were designed when they couldn't get the stimp above 5. Now, when they get rolling 11+, there are several greens which have putts that are 100% unmakeable. There are creative routes which you can take to keep the ball CLOSE to the hole, but there are putts that, in the physical universe we occupy, can not be made.
[/quote]

Right! People seem to forget this. The limit of the ball being unstoppable is around a combination of 16 for %slope + stimp. So if that downhill putt is long enough to gather enough speed before it hits the hole, it will skip right over it.

For example if it were a 2 tiered green and you're on the upper tier with the hole 15 feet down the slope of the lower tier, you still have to get the ball rolling with enough speed to make it to the lower tier. Then if it's straight down a 5% grade, stimping a 10 or 11, the ball will have way too much speed to drop in the hole, no matter how centered it hits it. These kind of situations are rare but they do occur on some nicer older courses that were originally designed to roll at a 6 or 7 stimp.
[/quote]

This is a good thread!
When Tiger won at the Masters 97 by 12 strokes, he said he felt the secret to putting there was to try to have the ball below the hole for putting.

[mikpga]

The moment DOUBT enters, the putts becomes much less makeable...

[tElihu]

If "unmake-able" means that it's literally impossible to make a given putt, then no putt is unmake-able, as you have to also consider not only the terrain itself, but outside agencies. (Not to mention to think more creatively.)

A spikemark, ballmark, wind, rain, a falling leaf, bug or grain of sand could all render a given putt make-able at any instant. Likewise, if I stand over that putt that some might consider unmake-able, and blast the ball with my putter, air-mailing the hole and smacking the tree in the rough some xx yards away, which ricochets the ball back onto the green and into the hole, then I've made that putt, thus proving it's make-able.

I'm not sure what the OPs original point or purpose was, but this has kind of turned into a silly exercise.

[pingB]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1318433977' post='3662711']
[quote name='pingB' timestamp='1318431523' post='3662485']
I've seen putts go way too fast and hit the back lip and actually bounce up and fall back in.
[/quote]

Those putts weren't moving too fast then.

Okay, I'll refine my stance on the subject a bit.

IF the only way to get the ball to the hole requires the putt to be moving SO fast that it has to hit the back of the hole dead square, pop up in the air and fall in...then that putt should be CONSIDERED unmakeable. Strategically, it wouldn't make sense to try to make that putt; better to attempt to find a good place to leave the ball for the next putt.
[/quote]



i mean it's all semantics.. I guess makeable and possible to make could be considered 2 different things..

if the ball can roll to the hole its possible that by some chance something could cause it to go in.. hits a ball mark to slow it down or whatever.

but a .01% chance in hell is not necessarily makeable. It just a possibility..

Same with the lotto.. It's possible to win it.. but will i ever? doubt it..



The context of the OP wasn't necessarily explained.. I say approach every putt like it can be made. The reality is you have very little chance of hitting from outside of 20 feet. But it's still possible so line up and let it go. If you hit the line correctly probably your speed was just wrong and you'll end up a little short or in the case of the down hill problem you'll be potentially way long..

But you had a shot at it one way or the other..

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='pingB' timestamp='1318440292' post='3663225']
The context of the OP wasn't necessarily explained...I say approach every putt like it can be made. The reality is you have very little chance of hitting from outside of 20 feet. But it's still possible so line up and let it go.
[/quote]

I don't know what the OP had in mind, either.

The following hypothetical is not that crazy (and let's assume the putt could be made, not an extreme situation).

30 foot putt. The ball and the hole are on the lower tier. The shelf between the tiers is curved, so that it lies between you and the ball. It is a more than a subtle change between the tiers. You can try to make the putt...go up the tier and back down to the lower level, with some risk on the speed AND reading the breaks. You hit it short, and you are on the top tier with a difficult putt down the tier change (4 putt is in play now). Get the speed just right, it will roll several feet past the hole, unless you make it.

Or you can take a direct path, with almost no break, to 3 feet from the hole.

Do you try to make it?

I'd rather be confident, aim for a good leave, REMOVE the DOUBT Mike referred to, and make a 2 putt.

[golfsavvy]

[quote name='OpusX20' timestamp='1318381896' post='3660209']
I don't think every putt is makeable. With a multi-tiered green and you are above the hole, it's pretty easy to get a putt that even hit at the minimum speed will pick up so much velocity by the time it reaches the hole there is no way it could go in. I am sure there are some putts on Old MacDonald (Bandon) that could absolutely not be made.
[/quote]

+1 Agree. Tetherow in Bend is the same. Sometimes, the closest you can get without making it is 5 - 6 feet if you bite off less break, or sometimes have to go sideways to catch a different part of the tier. Bottom line: the problem is the shot that got you there. I've had the problem on Tetherow #7 front right and 9 with a front left pin, being on the back tier. I know there are pin placements of a similar nature at Augusta. Come to think of it, there's probably one on at least 1/2 of the greens at Tetherow.

[JMazz]

Everyone is still confusing "Would you go for it?" with "Is it makeable?"

We can all agree that a good golfer would not "go for" every putt. That is just silly. Maybe some guys do, but either way, the point is moot.

What we are discussing here is whether or not every single putt (100% of any putt, on any green, with any legal hole location) is physically possible to make. This needs to be looked at logically. We cannot prove that every putt is makeable as the only way to do that is to make every possible putt. So, the burden is on us to prove that every putt is not makeable.

Let us assume that every putt is makeable. If we can find one counter example to this assumption, we have proven that every putt is not makeable. We can throw out outside agents like spike marks and such because the inclusion of those agents would simply add to the number of potential putts. That is, a putt from A to B and a putt from A to B with a dead goat in the way are two different putts even if points A and B are exactly the same from putt to putt.

It is fact that at some terminal ball speed, α, the ball's horizontal velocity is so great that the time in which it is suspended over the hole is too small for it to fall far enough due to gravity for it to fall into the hole (think Mario running fast enough not to fall into small holes). The question here is, what is α and is there a large and steep enough slope on any course on the entire planet at which the ball can reach α.

I do not have the proper equipment or time to further test and expound on this theory but I will contend that somewhere on Earth, there is a slope on a green where if a ball resting above said slope gets the least amount of force applied to it needed to get it started down the slope, it will reach α at some point. Hence, not every putt is makeable.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='JMazz' timestamp='1318540577' post='3669195']
Everyone is still confusing "Would you go for it?" with "Is it makeable?"
[/quote]

I am certain that "everyone" is not confused by that distinction. Several of us have talked about putts that cannot be made, because the ball will be rolling too fast to fall in the hole.

[harbourtowncaddy]

Check out pics of #9 green at harbour town. Extreme kidney shape, big pot bunkers in the middle back of green. Sundays pin placement used to always be way back left, this year it was way up front. Anyway, if any amateur plays our course and is on the wrong side of the kidney, we are instructed to have our player make one put to the center of the kidney, then hope and try to get a good read to make the second put... of course during the tourney, pros do what they want.

[PaddyK]

[quote name='JMazz' timestamp='1318540577' post='3669195']
Everyone is still confusing "Would you go for it?" with "Is it makeable?"

We can all agree that a good golfer would not "go for" every putt. That is just silly. Maybe some guys do, but either way, the point is moot.

What we are discussing here is whether or not every single putt (100% of any putt, on any green, with any legal hole location) is physically possible to make. This needs to be looked at logically. We cannot prove that every putt is makeable as the only way to do that is to make every possible putt. So, the burden is on us to prove that every putt is not makeable.

Let us assume that every putt is makeable. If we can find one counter example to this assumption, we have proven that every putt is not makeable. We can throw out outside agents like spike marks and such because the inclusion of those agents would simply add to the number of potential putts. That is, a putt from A to B and a putt from A to B with a dead goat in the way are two different putts even if points A and B are exactly the same from putt to putt.

It is fact that at some terminal ball speed, α, the ball's horizontal velocity is so great that the time in which it is suspended over the hole is too small for it to fall far enough due to gravity for it to fall into the hole (think Mario running fast enough not to fall into small holes). The question here is, what is α and is there a large and steep enough slope on any course on the entire planet at which the ball can reach α.

I do not have the proper equipment or time to further test and expound on this theory but I will contend that somewhere on Earth, there is a slope on a green where if a ball resting above said slope gets the least amount of force applied to it needed to get it started down the slope, it will reach α at some point. Hence, not every putt is makeable.
[/quote]

At which point the caddyshack gopher pops up, the ball hits it and drops in the hole. Ergo all putts are makeable.

[dlam]

This thread is getting tool silly.
I try to make all my putts, weather or not they go in is another matter.
There might be a hole where I have the correct line and correct delivery speed.
Say I just noded a the ball to get the ball rolling on a fast downhill putt and it goes on the correct line and starts off as slow as I can get the ball rolling then the ball picks up speed and goes toward the middle of the hole and across to the other side.
There's nothing ICAN do about it.

I got the ball on the correct line, hit it slow enough .

[tembolo1284]

I would say ALL putts are makeable. If you sat there for the rest of your life and putted the putt...eventually you'd make it.

Just like the math theorem that put into plain english says something like, "If you put monkeys in a room with a typewriter eventually they'd type out a scene from shakespeare."

It's possible...but is it likely? Clearly, some putts SEEM like they are impossible to make.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

Obviously some of you have never seen a green with a sand trap in the middle. Lets see you putt through it.

[AcesAZ]

Im trying to make every shot I look at. Your much more apt to get closer if your target is smaller.

[rhyno18]

Every putt is makeable, however I personally don't try to make every putt. I probably have at least 2 or 3 putts per round where my goal is just to get it to tap-in or "gimmie" range, and if it happens to go in then I'll jump up and down like a fool celebrating my good fortune(even if it was a putt for a 6).

[RJC59]

i've seen many putts through my days which are unmakeable. even from 10 feet... the only way you could make it is to grab a lob wedge and fly it in the hole.

for example... in our scramble game a few days ago, 4 playing professionals to a team.. we had an 10-15 footer where if you played the putt straight it would break hard left.. but the higher you played the putt the more it would break the OPPOSITE way... basically a putt that has two funnels away from the hole.. Similar to Bryce Molders putt on the 17th hole last week.

We all missed it and then proceeded to keep trying it for about 10 minutes and it was deemed impossible..

[isaacbm]

every single ball that sits on a green is makeable. You might have to hit a wedge and one hop it in the hole but it certainly is POSSIBLE. Probable?? Hardly. There's no one that can use the laws of physics and argue that you can't make a ball lying on the green. You just might not be able to make it with a putter.....

[I_HATE_SNOW]

The question was about putts.

[PaddyK]

[quote name='dirtyboy' timestamp='1318819634' post='3681477']
The question was about putts.
[/quote]

As BM rightly points out, you don't have to putt with a putter.

[nitram]

In Theory, Yes.

In Reality, No.