Are Titleist irons forged by Endo? If so. . .

[Geohans]

why so little love for the feel?

Couldn't come up with the right combo of words to get the answer. . . . anyone? Thanks.


ETA: I reframed the title, rather than start a new thread.

[Hambone1]

I think Endo used to, not sure about current lines

[jaskanski]

Pretty sure it's the Endo 'Eagle' plant in Thailand. Woods are made at the 'Stork' plant.

[Geohans]

In another thread I asked about JDM, and Endo is apparently very highly regarded in Japan.

If Endo is forging Titleist, why do so many people poo-poo the feel of their irons compared with, say Mizuno?

Are there two "levels" of quality with respect to forgings by Endo? Is there a difference between Epon forgings and Titleist forgings?

Thanks.

[ifixclubs]

more of a plating/finish difference...but the iron heads are done by endo thailand...good stuff...

[avguy]

Never hit the Titleist forged yet, but Mizuno forged (MP-32) is great feeling, and what I am discovering in my short timer life in blades, Durably finished!

Currently, I am shopping to replace my Wilson Staff Blades (they are from Watts, like a FG-59) due to nasty gouges on the 5 & 9 from the frickin parking lot. With my nature, I also want these clubs to hold up to my bag eye some, and my current Mizuno set has done so well in over two years. What I have been looking for is in comparing forged sets just initially, on the looks front - the finish.

I just ruled out Taylormade MB blades as I saw a used set of the same forging (MC) with their finish similar worn thin as my current WS set. Meanwhile, my MP-32 set with more rounds - looks much better. (Not a chrome allergy 4 me!)

Look on ebay, Craigslist, and retail at "used" sets of forged Titleists and see how they hold up on just the looks front. Feel wise, I will let the many experts here pile on.....

[TomWishon]

Seriously, there needs to be a serious fact reality check here about this myth that Japanese made forgings are "better" in any manner than forged iron heads made by a quality factory in another country. This is a perfect example of wild generalized claims taking on a life of their own, fueled by opinions that are not based on fact.

OK, so there are not that many factories making forged carbon steel iron heads. No one is left in the USA - Hoffman and Cornell shut down years ago, and I do not know if Wilson Tullahoma is still operating - last time I worked on a project with them, they should have been shut down for how poor their quality was. Smith/Wesson just did a one time thing for Snake Eyes so they are not a contender at all. So that leaves Japan and one factory in China by the name of Virage Tech.

And I can definitely testify that Virage Tech knows what they are doing and is a VERY high quality forging house with a good number of big names doing their forged heads there or using them as a second source for their forgings.

Impact feel in an iron head is first a matter of the CG position and weight distribution of the DESIGN SHAPE of the head - only secondarily can grain structure or internal porosity come into the equation. And since VT was the first to develop the 5-step and then 6-step forging process when the Japan forging houses were still using the old 4-step process, that means VT would have more of a chance in offering better grain structure and greatly reduced porosity in their forgings.

There is no magic about the carbon steel itself either. The carbon steel alloys used in forging are all processed under the same chemistry and same international standards for composition and mechanical properties. If you buy your alloys from a quality mill and they come with the proper paperwork to verify these standards, it is what it is and it cannot be "better". And again, I can tell you that Virage Tech buys from quality mills and very much spends the time to verify these raw material standards on their carbon steels.

So seriously, this matter of Japanese forgings are better is pure fantasy - makes for a nice story around the 19th hole, but it is a myth.

TOM

[CarloGolfer]

$hit just got real...

Thank you Tom Wishon.

[jldavis73]

Replies from someone with expertise, like Mr. Wishon, blow my hair back (that's a good thing).

[mandudebro]

Great info Tom- thanks for you're perspective (again). I have a question I hope you might address.

In my experience, most Mizuno forged MB/MC irons (of different designs and CG's) tend to have a very similar feel, as do many of Titleist's MB/MC offerings. The two 'feelings' of the Mizuno and Titleist irons also are very distinct from one another (most often described as soft/buttery and crisp/clicky).

To what do you ascribe these distinct/consistent 'feels' amongst these manufacturers iron offerings when the offerings do vary significantly in design/COG? In other words, why do an MP-33 and MP-69 share a similar feeling- one that is very distinct from a 660 or 710MB whose design/COG is equally different?

[LSamAdams08]

What a golf site. That's why I frequent these boards because you can't get info from an expert like Wishon anywhere else.
Thanks for your thoughts
Logan

[Geohans]

[quote name='mandudebro' timestamp='1322779745' post='3877727']
Great info Tom- thanks for you're perspective (again). I have a question I hope you might address.

In my experience, most Mizuno forged MB/MC irons (of different designs and CG's) tend to have a very similar feel, as do many of Titleist's MB/MC offerings. The two 'feelings' of the Mizuno and Titleist irons also are very distinct from one another (most often described as soft/buttery and crisp/clicky).

To what do you ascribe these distinct/consistent 'feels' amongst these manufacturers iron offerings when the offerings do vary significantly in design/COG? In other words, why do an MP-33 and MP-69 share a similar feeling- one that is very distinct from a 660 or 710MB whose design/COG is equally different?
[/quote]


This is a great question. Worthy of a five minute bump. . . . ..

[stg113]

[quote name='mandudebro' timestamp='1322779745' post='3877727']
Great info Tom- thanks for you're perspective (again). I have a question I hope you might address.

In my experience, most Mizuno forged MB/MC irons (of different designs and CG's) tend to have a very similar feel, as do many of Titleist's MB/MC offerings. The two 'feelings' of the Mizuno and Titleist irons also are very distinct from one another (most often described as soft/buttery and crisp/clicky).

To what do you ascribe these distinct/consistent 'feels' amongst these manufacturers iron offerings when the offerings do vary significantly in design/COG? In other words, why do an MP-33 and MP-69 share a similar feeling- one that is very distinct from a 660 or 710MB whose design/COG is equally different?
[/quote]

I'm sure I'm going to get hammered for this comment, but so much of it is in your head. If we tell ourselves that they are similar, then they are.

[Big Ben]

I think Titty forgings are WAY underrated for feel regardless of who is producing them, I'm a fan...BB

[jdhallissey]

No a lot goes into feel. Not just in the heads but shafts and grips. one wrap to 3 wraps. Everything will have a different reaction. I know of one guy in Cali who could tell you the difference between clubs where the only thing was different was the epoxies. Same thing in feeling the difference in the firmness of a golf ball. I can tell you that the MP-69's are much softer then the 712mb's. Titleist of the last 10 years has had there irons making a firmer more click sound. The 712's are not really noticeable but the older ap2's were death. Much like the new scotty putters, they make a harsh click sound when a ball leaves the face. I don't like that, when a ball leaves the face of a club and struck pure it should make no sound at all but you hitting the grass.

[FATC1TY]

I always laughed at people putting a whole hell of a lot of stock into these japanese forging houses like it made a difference. If the quality was there, they aren't sprinkling magic in the there with it to make them superior to others.

It's like getting into a debate on which place stamped out the sheet metal for the doors on a Ford, and are they just as good as the ones for the Nissan...

[moonshine]

[quote name='ifixclubs' timestamp='1322580539' post='3866115']
more of a plating/finish difference...but the iron heads are done by endo thailand...good stuff...
[/quote]
Exactly...chrome process.

[mandudebro]

So some potential explanations for the similarities in 'feel' amongst differently designed iron heads made by the same manufacturer include:

1. It's all in your head- I personally don't think so as I can, and have, picked out the Mizuno vs the Titleist after hitting them without seeing which was which
2. Chrome/plating process- maybe something here...?
3. Myriad other variable including epoxy, ferrule, grip, tape...- Hard to imagine any OEM is so consistent with these variable that their clubs tend to have very similar feel properties.

Others that crossed my mind included:

1. Feel is mostly sound, so an OEM can go after a certain, consistent sound and most people will perceive the feel as consistent amongst different model heads
2. The design/CG/weighting characteristics that affect 'feel' are not as disparate amongst a given OEM's different heads as would appear (ie. MP-33 more similar to MP-69 than it looks?)
3. Different carbon steel from OEM to OEM does make for different and unique 'feel'
4. The 'feel' of a Mizuno, or Titleist, or Hogan, Nike...is the "fingerprint" of that particular OEM's iron designers and something that they consciously and carefully pursue in new designs..?
5. Vibration dampening plays a key role and is emphasized more in with some OEM's than others?
6. It's magic

Still would love to hear from Mr. Wishon on my original query.

[Dizz]

I've been in the same boat too with equipment. I mean if you just spent $2,000 on a custom set of Miura irons and then hit them, how you justify the price if you didn't tell everyone how good they felt? To this day, forged or cast I have never hit an iron that didn't feel great when hit flush. I think a handful of posters on here have always wanted to rip their hair out when they read about how the Mizuno feels so much softer than the Titleist and how Miura is just head and shoulders better than either.

[jdhallissey]

To me personally the tourney blades from Miura are junk. The Baby blades are like butter. Then a close second is Mizuno if there blades were smaller and square toed I would play them over miura's. I am a titleist junkie ever since I had my tour blades, they were the best feeling blade ever.

[big TONYG]

I was supprised on how good the srixon irons felt. Very nice! Picked up a set for a steal and researched their forging process, pretty quality with srixon![quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1322799661' post='3879127']
To me personally the tourney blades from Miura are junk. The Baby blades are like butter. Then a close second is Mizuno if there blades were smaller and square toed I would play them over miura's. I am a titleist junkie ever since I had my tour blades, they were the best feeling blade ever.
[/quote]

[tembolo1284]

Tom, sir...if I may say, you rock.

Thank you very much for coming on here and sharing your insight with us.

[mandudebro]

...and that, folks, is what I call insight. Thanks for posting Tom.