PING’s Solheim Proposes Ball Rating System

[mat562]

My thoughts?

It's an imperfect [i]after-the-horse-has-bolted[/i] solution to the problem of the R&A and the USGA missing the boat years ago with regard to increasing driving distances, but it's as good a solution as any that's been mooted recently.

It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense than the groove fiasco the game's been lumbered with.

It'll never happen because of resistance to bifurcation of the rules for amateurs and professionals. People will still want to cling to the idea that the 82 they shot around [Insert Championship Course Here] compares with the 77 that Joe Pro shot there in the Big Sponsor All Star Masters Invitational last year; despite playing off forward tees that knocked 700 yards off the length, the pins being in easy spots, the rough being cut back, the fairways being 20% wider and the greens running three feet slower on the stimp than they did for the tournament.

[Oscar]

Somebody should propose to ban ugly cast clubs with huge offset... let's see what Solheim says then.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

This ball rating system is the most stupid thing I have heard on this distance debate so far. I have 5 points and I am done.

 

1- Distance has not increased for 7-8 years, and have actually come back slightly over the last 3.

2- The players are stronger, bigger, and have better mechanics then players only a decade ago.

3- Ball speeds are already governed and regulated by the USGA.

4- The groove rule has not changed anything as far as scoring and scrambling stats are concerned.

5- No matter what, the longest and strongest players will remain just that.

 

My opinion to those that say that players are getting bigger, stronger, and are hitting the ball farther and the ball isn't becoming more juiced.....is that you're probably right.

 

I'm definitely not saying that the distance gains should be blamed solely on the ball. The issue is that the combined effect of players getting bigger and stronger along w/ equipment and ball technology improving is creating a problem where golf is becoming less a test of ball striking along with driving accuracy and putting and much more a game of bomb it and learn to be a great putter.

 

Long hitters should have an advantage over shorter hitters, but changes need to be made so that courses that are designed with the intention of having to navigate fairway bunkers are now seeing players hit it over the bunkers. Jack N. has already been quoted that even Augusta is having to make changes because the length guys can hit it are taking the obstacles that were designed into the course out of play.

 

There is nothing wrong with limiting the distance of the ball as players get bigger and stronger. They can keep characteristics in the ball that doesn't affect slow speed swings so that it doesn't further affect amateurs, just limit ball speeds on high swing speeds. This is already done with compression rating, so it can be taken a step further.

 

A lot of people refer to Luke Donald as a reason that distance doesn't matter because he is a short hitter, but he averages 285yd from the tee. Not exactly short. This just shows how long a lot of players are becoming. And he can still get it to 300yds when he swings for distance or gets favorable roll. Big difference from the 'short' hitters from 10-15 years ago.

 

Can you provide a link to #1. I thought i just read recently where overall distance has continued to increase over the past several years. The below just shows that more players are getting longer because of whatever reason. The courses either have to compensate by moving tees back, accept the fact that players will outdrive hazards and hit wedges into greens, or they can regulate the ball. Its about the future of golf....what will these numbers be in another 10 years. There are only a handful of courses, Harbor Town, Pebble, etc that are short and require working the ball.

 

 

 

[Vindog]

[quote name='mat562' timestamp='1324484298' post='3970975']
My thoughts?

It's an imperfect [i]after-the-horse-has-bolted[/i] solution to the problem of the R&A and the USGA missing the boat years ago with regard to increasing driving distances, but it's as good a solution as any that's been mooted recently.

It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense than the groove fiasco the game's been lumbered with.

[b]It'll never happen because of resistance to bifurcation of the rules for amateurs and professionals. People will still want to cling to the idea that the 82 they shot around [Insert Championship Course Here] compares with the 77 that Joe Pro shot there in the Big Sponsor All Star Masters Invitational last year; despite playing off forward tees that knocked 700 yards off the length, the pins being in easy spots, the rough being cut back, the fairways being 20% wider and the greens running three feet slower on the stimp than they did for the tournament.[/b]
[/quote]

I was going to mention setup after the "72 at Oakmont, is 72 at Oakmont" thing but I knew it probably would come across wrong. But this is a great point. Yes it's great that we ams can tee it up at the spots the pros do. That's awesome for golfers. But let's not kid ourselves that the setups are even close to comparable. It's not even really the same course anymore.

[Vindog]

[quote name='Oscar' timestamp='1324484953' post='3971031']
Somebody should propose to ban ugly cast clubs with huge offset... let's see what Solheim says then.
[/quote]

[starsail85]

Nothings going further, people are just hitting it harder

although you could argue that bigger headed drivers and low spinning balls have Allowed them to do so at much less risk

for me the problem is course set up, for the last 40 years everything has been overwatered, the game is now played in the air, and shotmaking has lost it's importance somewhat

get the fairways bone hard, brown and fast, and let nature dictate how tee shots should be played

merrion should be interesting

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324485173' post='3971043']
[quote name='mat562' timestamp='1324484298' post='3970975']
My thoughts?

It's an imperfect [i]after-the-horse-has-bolted[/i] solution to the problem of the R&A and the USGA missing the boat years ago with regard to increasing driving distances, but it's as good a solution as any that's been mooted recently.

It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense than the groove fiasco the game's been lumbered with.

[b]It'll never happen because of resistance to bifurcation of the rules for amateurs and professionals. People will still want to cling to the idea that the 82 they shot around [Insert Championship Course Here] compares with the 77 that Joe Pro shot there in the Big Sponsor All Star Masters Invitational last year; despite playing off forward tees that knocked 700 yards off the length, the pins being in easy spots, the rough being cut back, the fairways being 20% wider and the greens running three feet slower on the stimp than they did for the tournament.[/b]
[/quote]

I was going to mention setup after the "72 at oakmont, is 72 at oakmont" thing but I knew it probably would com accross wrong. But this is a great point. Yes it's great that we ams can tee it up at the spots the pros do. That's awesome for golfers. But let's not kid ourselves that the setups are even close to comparable. It's not even really the same course anymore.
[/quote]

yap...exactly right. When I go to bethpage black and shoot 75 it's not like I did it under US Open conditions. In us open conditions it would be more like 105....and that would be only after the front 9.

[TexMex36]

I remember watching an interview on tv (I think that it was with Bubba Watson) talking about the sport moving forward. He didn't want things to change (like longer courses and restrictions on the golf ball) because golf is the only sport that doesn't want to evolve. Guys in the NBA are bigger and faster than guys in the Jordan era but the NBA isnt putting rims up at 15 feet and bringing back the 3 point line another 20 feet. Same thing with the NFL. Quarterbacks with bigger arms arent having to throw lead footballs. Just leave the game alone and let it evolve!!!!

[FairwaysToHeaven]

[quote name='Ping Bling' timestamp='1324495731' post='3971753']
I remember watching an interview on tv (I think that it was with Bubba Watson) talking about the sport moving forward. He didn't want things to change (like longer courses and restrictions on the golf ball) because [b]golf is the only sport that doesn't want to evolve[/b]. Guys in the NBA are bigger and faster than guys in the Jordan era but the NBA isnt putting rims up at 15 feet and bringing back the 3 point line another 20 feet. Same thing with the NFL. Quarterbacks with bigger arms arent having to throw lead footballs. J[b]ust leave the game alone and let it evolve!!![/b]!
[/quote]

So are we saying to let golf evolve or don't want it to evolve? Anyways, basketball still uses the same rim and height and the ball is the same. same goes for football. In golf, the ball has definitely changed to go farther and straighter from 15 years ago while the drivers create more distance than 15 years ago. Guys are getting stronger and bigger, but equipment technology has helped length too.

[geesecougar2]

[quote name='Outlier' timestamp='1324481486' post='3970723'][quote name='eroc' timestamp='1324460715' post='3970031']
What exactly are the physical factors that result in a golf balls going further with each iteration? Do golf balls have higher CORs? Is it that manufacturers have been able to make them react with increasingly lower spin from the driver but maintain high spin on shorter clubs?

I guess my question is, is the golf ball really getting hotter, or is it that 1.) guys just able to dial in launch conditions better as equipment in general improves, and 2.) the pros are becoming better athletes using increasingly improving techniques?

I think another big factor that gets overlooked in the whole distance issue is the loft of wedges. In my opinion, loft should be limited to 56 or 57 degrees. If that happened, pros would be forced to think very hard about what kind of risks they are willing to take in their shot selections, and bomb and gouge would be a much less viable strategy. IIRC, the lob wedge was only adopted on tour in the 80s, with Tom Kite the first player to use it, so it is a relatively recent phenomenon. It gave the players a "get out of jail free card" of sorts, and I believe the governing bodies blew it with that one.
[/quote]

Again what bothers me...is that it was OK, smart, awesome, innovative when Tom Kite used a lob wedge- now it's an abomination? That again strikes me as subjective...it's comes down to the "who" not the "what". My point is that even if we froze equipment in 1997, this anti-Darwinism would still exist.

Ernie Els was bigger than most and drank beer, John Daly could hit it a mile, and became a slob, Greg Norman had the physical tools but swallowed apples on Sunday. Short knockers like Pavin and Price could still compete. The only one famous for fitness was 5'5" 140lbs. Gary Player.

Today half the tour can look Ernie eye to eye, and has been stretching and lifting weights since 12 years old. Look what Tiger did with an x100 shaft in a 9 degree steel driver, with a wound ball....and yet they immediately went about "Tiger proofing" everything. If no equipment changed, Vegas, Bubba, Dustin, Gary etc. would still crank it too far for Nick Price to compete with (unless he cut back to a pack of cigs a day, and went to the gym).


[/quote]

If you are implying that the people only started complaining about distances and all that because of Tiger, you have a fair point.

But, I certainly do not advocate the loft limit because of him; in fact, I think a loft limit would actually play right into his hands. The more emphasis we put on skill rather than brute power, the more of an advantage he actually has.

[Outlier]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1324495132' post='3Exactly!971703']
Nothings going further, people are just hitting it harder

although you could argue that bigger headed drivers and low spinning balls have Allowed them to do so at much less risk

for me the problem is course set up, for the last 40 years everything has been overwatered, the game is now played in the air, and shotmaking has lost it's importance somewhat

get the fairways bone hard, brown and fast, and let nature dictate how tee shots should be played

merrion should be interesting
[/quote]

[Outlier]

Exactly!

[cxx]

I did think it was interesting how short Royal Melbourne played in the Presidents Cup. Lots of players still tried to drive the greens and were severely penalized for it. No doubt it was challenging enough.

Ever since the intro of the prov1 the driving distances have jumped up. The tour driving distance averages have gone up in response to playing most tournaments on extended long straight tracks. Making the courses longer has favored the long ball player and put the shorter hitters at a Darwinian disadvantage.

It seems simple enough to fix. Play courses with doglegs, narrow fairways and firm fast greens. Firm as in having to play the bounce. If someone can fly it over the trees 30 degrees from the direction of the hole and land in the fairway more power to him.

I don't buy into the "everybody is more fit these days and this makes better golfers" mantra. The equipment improvements have had the most impact on distance. Ask anyone who's been through any of the transitions, steel to graphite, wood to metal, balata to urethane. The big forgiving drivers and balls that don't curve have allowed more aggressive swings. By the way, I have no idea what diversity has to do with any of this.

Oh I'm sure that most players are more fit, DJ supposedly being the poster child of this idea. Who else is in this fitness club? Quiros? Scott? I'm not sure. Look at Bubba, not a muscle on him and he is a distance leader. He has a short game too.

[Vindog]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1324499979' post='3972079']
[quote name='Ping Bling' timestamp='1324495731' post='3971753']
I remember watching an interview on tv (I think that it was with Bubba Watson) talking about the sport moving forward. He didn't want things to change (like longer courses and restrictions on the golf ball) because [b]golf is the only sport that doesn't want to evolve[/b]. Guys in the NBA are bigger and faster than guys in the Jordan era but the NBA isnt putting rims up at 15 feet and bringing back the 3 point line another 20 feet. Same thing with the NFL. Quarterbacks with bigger arms arent having to throw lead footballs. J[b]ust leave the game alone and let it evolve!!![/b]!
[/quote]

So are we saying to let golf evolve or don't want it to evolve? Anyways, basketball still uses the same rim and height and the ball is the same. same goes for football. In golf, the ball has definitely changed to go farther and straighter from 15 years ago while the drivers create more distance than 15 years ago. Guys are getting stronger and bigger, but equipment technology has helped length too.
[/quote]

the NFL changes the football periodically, and there is even a different ball for kicking than there is for regular play.

[highhook]

An interesting topic to say the least.I have heard from more 300 yard drivers than I have witnessed in 52 years of play. No offence intended to those of you who are legitiment.The main problem is the same as it was all those years ago when I began. 95% play tees to far back. I can still break 80 once in a while playing the correct set of tees. It,s a lot more fun than 95 from the tips, Try it.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1324504694' post='3972409']
Making the courses longer has favored the long ball player and put the shorter hitters at a Darwinian disadvantage. [/quote]

Luke Donald @ #1? His driving average is 284.1yds which is T153.

Westwood @ #2 is T17 @ 301.8yds.

McIlroy @ #3 is 7 @ 307.2yds

Kaymer @ #4 is 82 @ 291.7yds.

Scott @ #5 is 24 @ 299.7yds

Stricker @ #6 is 113 @ 288.8yds.

DJ @ #7 is 3 @ 314.2yds.

Day @ #8 is 14 @ 302.6yds.

Schwartzel @ #9 is 43 @ 297.0yds

Simpson @ #10 is 51 @ 296.2yds.

Average driving distance position of the top 10 World Golf ranked players = 50th

Average driving distance of the top 10 World Golf ranked players = 298.3yds

[Vindog]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1324504694' post='3972409']Oh I'm sure that most players are more fit, DJ supposedly being the poster child of this idea. Who else is in this fitness club? Quiros? Scott? I'm not sure. Look at Bubba, not a muscle on him and he is a distance leader. He has a short game too.
[/quote]

Most everybody younger than 40 not named Couch, Lyle, or Stadler.

You don't have to be mucular to be fit. Bubba is tall and lanky and fit (flexible). He get a lot of rotational speed through a huge turn and huge arc. due to that flexibility.

Lots of guys are fit, and are longer than they should be really, such as Paul Casey. He's not very tall and has a compact swing, but puts a good pop on it.

[cxx]

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324507826' post='3972575']
[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1324504694' post='3972409']Oh I'm sure that most players are more fit, DJ supposedly being the poster child of this idea. Who else is in this fitness club? Quiros? Scott? I'm not sure. Look at Bubba, not a muscle on him and he is a distance leader. He has a short game too.
[/quote]

Most everybody younger than 40 not named Couch, Lyle, or Stadler.

You don't have to be mucular to be fit. Bubba is tall and lanky and fit (flexible). He get a lot of rotational speed through a huge turn and huge arc. due to that flexibility.

Lots of guys are fit, and are longer than they should be really, such as Paul Casey. He's not very tall and has a compact swing, but puts a good pop on it.
[/quote]

There are lots of small guys hitting it a long way mostly due to good technique and inherent talent. Bubba did a "Playing Lessons with the Pros" with Johnny Damon who, according to Bubba, was much stronger and quicker. It didn't really help him hit it long though. Actually, he was kind of a short hitter.

I just think that the equipment has made the most difference. The tour talent remains about the same.

Rolling the ball back wouldn't be bad. Tough to do though. The multiple ball idea is not good. The bad thing about the increase in distance is that courses are not being played as they were intended. Even when lengthened or par shortened, the architectural features don't match up. Kind of like playing baseball on a softball field.

I really don't like the fact that I have to wait for the Open or something like Royal Melbourne to see the most interesting tournaments.

[Vindog]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1324511874' post='3973039']
[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324507826' post='3972575']
[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1324504694' post='3972409']Oh I'm sure that most players are more fit, DJ supposedly being the poster child of this idea. Who else is in this fitness club? Quiros? Scott? I'm not sure. Look at Bubba, not a muscle on him and he is a distance leader. He has a short game too.
[/quote]

Most everybody younger than 40 not named Couch, Lyle, or Stadler.

You don't have to be mucular to be fit. Bubba is tall and lanky and fit (flexible). He get a lot of rotational speed through a huge turn and huge arc. due to that flexibility.

Lots of guys are fit, and are longer than they should be really, such as Paul Casey. He's not very tall and has a compact swing, but puts a good pop on it.
[/quote]

There are lots of small guys hitting it a long way mostly due to good technique and inherent talent. Bubba did a "Playing Lessons with the Pros" with Johnny Damon who, according to Bubba, was much stronger and quicker. It didn't really help him hit it long though. Actually, he was kind of a short hitter.

I just think that the equipment has made the most difference. The tour talent remains about the same.

Rolling the ball back wouldn't be bad. Tough to do though. The multiple ball idea is not good. The bad thing about the increase in distance is that courses are not being played as they were intended. Even when lengthened or par shortened, the architectural features don't match up. Kind of like playing baseball on a softball field.

I really don't like the fact that I have to wait for the Open or something like Royal Melbourne to see the most interesting tournaments.
[/quote]

Yep. I saw that episode. Good stuff. The thing he pointed out was that Damon, while quicker and stronger, couldn't generate the same speeds because Bubba is taller, more flexible, and has a wider arc (longer swing). Plus Bubba is more efficient and can probably hit the center of the face on a regular basis.

[IdahoAussie]

So why not a different ball JUST for elite tournament play? I mean, the courses are set up completely differently at that level, so it's not as though we see the same courses as the elites do anyway. The tournament ball would not need to make it to retail (although the label will inevitably be the same as the retail version, just as we see Chevy Impalas doing the rounds at Talladega), so nothing would change for the 99.99% of us who don't play the PGA Tour.

No-one is saying it's a perfect solution, but IMHO the worst solution is to do nothing and see the madness continue.

[TrufflePig]

I agree with Solheim that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. The combination of technology increases and player conditioning is making some of the classic courses obsolete and requiring new courses to use more land to meet the 7000+ yard limit to be considered "championship" quality. So what are the options?

1. Do nothing
2. Different ball for professionals (bifurcation)
3. Solheim idea of ball ratings
4. Roll back current ball limits
5. Roll back current driver limits
6. Other?

I can't say I'm a huge fan of any of those but if I had to choose I'd probably do a combination of 4 & 5. With technology today, perhaps the limits could be written to set restrictions based on the top 1% of swing speeds. Essentially a rule like - the clubhead, traveling at 120mph should propel a ball at no more than X mph resulting in a carry of no more than Y yards in controlled conditions. Manufactures could then design equipment that maximizes the 100 mph swing while remaining compliant for the 120mph swing. Essentially, minimizing the gap (however slightly) between fast swingers and slow swingers.

[LSamAdams08]

This is a pretty wild idea, not surprising in the least coming from Solheim, but I am not dismissing it immediately because I believe it may have some merit and could possibly have a positive impact on the game. Personally I would continue playing a tour ball or whatever is current at the time. I think a "longer" ball would benefit the higher handicap
Golfer or any amatuer that wants to hit it farther, and also add to their enjoyment of the game. I don't see much realistic broad spectrum use for a ball that is shorter. Each golf course is different and when I travel to play at different tracks than my home course, I want to experience that course and whether ever makes it what it is. I do think Ping has a good thought here, but applicating it is another question.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='TrufflePig' timestamp='1324522908' post='3973797']
I agree with Solheim that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. The combination of technology increases and player conditioning is making some of the classic courses obsolete and requiring new courses to use more land to meet the 7000+ yard limit to be considered "championship" quality. So what are the options?

1. Do nothing
2. Different ball for professionals (bifurcation)
3. Solheim idea of ball ratings
4. Roll back current ball limits
5. Roll back current driver limits
6. Other?


I can't say I'm a huge fan of any of those but if I had to choose I'd probably do a combination of 4 & 5. With technology today, perhaps the limits could be written to set restrictions based on the top 1% of swing speeds. Essentially a rule like - the clubhead, traveling at 120mph should propel a ball at no more than X mph resulting in a carry of no more than Y yards in controlled conditions. Manufactures could then design equipment that maximizes the 100 mph swing while remaining compliant for the 120mph swing. Essentially, minimizing the gap (however slightly) between fast swingers and slow swingers.
[/quote]

That amounts to equipment OEM's basically being forced to admit that their driver is pretty much the same as the next guys. Thats somewhat the case today, but marketing geniuses are able to come up with "15 yards longer!" every year because the restrictions that are in place now are a mind screw to most every average chop who is chipping the paint on 3 or 4 driver crowns a weekend at Golf galaxy. And maximizing a driver head for 100MPH swings and yet merely sustaining technology for the 120 guy? wont [s]we[/s] they buy 100 driver heads, and throw 120 shafts in them? Where does the rollback stop? Everybody plays The Killer Whale or The Blue rage, choose wisely!

Seperating the balls for Am's and Tour pros is just an awful idea. And frankly,the only one worse is this idea about letting some tour stops make them play a ball that doesn't travel as far? That is just absurd, And doing that retroactively is just asking for guys with full status to sit there with their wives just after the new year, hammering out their schedules for the season, "scratch this one off, Yep, we can go to your moms this weekend in June Honey. It's just one of those "funny ball tournaments" It's the FREAKING PGA tour! Not Wally's Mini golf and fun parlor! Alright im done. I need beer now.

[maverick]

I am not going to get into what or why distances are longer but I didn't like the proposed rule change. It is because when the average Joe golfer cannot play the same equipment as the pros he will not buy. It may not make sense but it is human nature. The perfect example is that if it has 'Tour' stamped on it somewhere is more expensive. Equipment is better but hasn't that been the progression of golf since inception?

[nightwalker]

This ball rating system is the most stupid thing I have heard on this distance debate so far. I have 5 points and I am done.

 

1- Distance has not increased for 7-8 years, and have actually come back slightly over the last 3.

2- The players are stronger, bigger, and have better mechanics then players only a decade ago.

3- Ball speeds are already governed and regulated by the USGA.

4- The groove rule has not changed anything as far as scoring and scrambling stats are concerned.

5- No matter what, the longest and strongest players will remain just that.

 

 

Can you provide a link to #1. I thought i just read recently where overall distance has continued to increase over the past several years. The below just shows that more players are getting longer because of whatever reason. The courses either have to compensate by moving tees back, accept the fact that players will outdrive hazards and hit wedges into greens, or they can regulate the ball. Its about the future of golf....what will these numbers be in another 10 years. There are only a handful of courses, Harbor Town, Pebble, etc that are short and require working the ball.

 

 

This is data from the PGA Tour driving distance of the top 5 and the average distance:

 

2011-

 

1-318.4

2-314.9

3-314.2

4-313.4

5-310.5

AVG-290.9

 

2010-

 

1-315.5

2-309.8

3-308.5

4-307.3

5-307.2

AVG-288.9

 

2009-

 

1-312.3

2-311.3

3-308.3

4-307.4

5-307.3

AVG-289.2

 

2007-

 

1-315.2

2-312.9

3-312.6

4-310.5

5-306.1

AVG-290.4

 

2005-

 

1-318.9

2-316.1

3-311.7

4-310.5

5-310.1

AVG-290.1

 

Even if I include 2001 (the beginning of the "PRO V1 era"), we have only seen 10 yards gained in the last decade and that 1 yard per year, is divided between high COR heads, shaft technology, ball technology, athleticism, turf grass improvements, bigger/fitter players, and improved fitting and instruction.

 

2001-

 

1-306.7

2-298.5

3-297.6

4-297.6

5-296.1

AVG-280.5

 

Looking at the data, I just don't understand why the ruling bodies, golfers, and club companies think that an apocalypse is on the doorstep now when the data doesn't support their position.

[mat562]

I agree. Distances have pretty much peaked. I read an interview recently with a USGA bigwig who said exactly that.

The apocalypse (if that's what you want to call it) has already happened. Distances [i]have [/i]spiralled out of control. The USGA and the R&A missed the boat years ago.

It's not players gaining a couple of yards every other season that's causing the problem. To use that table above, it's the fact that the players who were in the top 3% of driving distance in 1980 are now in the bottom 10% thirty years later. If you drive the ball like Greg Norman did in the late 1980s, you're now in the bottom 10% on tour in terms of driving distance. That's a big change. Everybody on tour hits the ball at least 25 yards longer than they would have done twenty years ago. The big hitters get even more out of their equipment; so much, in fact, that it's totally altered the nature of the game. Lengthening courses was the knee-jerk reaction to it, and had the effect of stacking the deck in favour of the long hitters even more than it was already. It's always been an advantage to hit the ball a long way, but now the tournaments are giving the big hitters an extra leg-up, too and if you're a short hitter (which is probably an oxymoron in pro golf now) you've got an ever diminishing chance to be able to compete on a frequent basis..

The distance problem isn't imagined. It's very real. And it's high time to do something about it - and not with that shambolic groove fiasco that's achieved virtually nothing. The ball is the obvious target for change, just as it was 20 years ago when people like Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson were predicting the future at which we've now arrived.

[Vindog]

[quote name='mat562' timestamp='1324649598' post='3979487']
I agree. Distances have pretty much peaked. I read an interview recently with a USGA bigwig who said exactly that.

The apocalypse (if that's what you want to call it) has already happened. Distances [i]have [/i]spiralled out of control. The USGA and the R&A missed the boat years ago.

It's not players gaining a couple of yards every other season that's causing the problem. To use that table above, it's the fact that the players who were in the top 3% of driving distance in 1980 are now in the bottom 10% thirty years later. If you drive the ball like Greg Norman did in the late 1980s, you're now in the bottom 10% on tour in terms of driving distance. That's a big change. Everybody on tour hits the ball at least 25 yards longer than they would have done twenty years ago. The big hitters get even more out of their equipment; so much, in fact, that it's totally altered the nature of the game. Lengthening courses was the knee-jerk reaction to it, and had the effect of stacking the deck in favour of the long hitters even more than it was already. It's always been an advantage to hit the ball a long way, but now the tournaments are giving the big hitters an extra leg-up, too and if you're a short hitter (which is probably an oxymoron in pro golf now) you've got an ever diminishing chance to be able to compete on a frequent basis..

The distance problem isn't imagined. It's very real. And it's high time to do something about it - and not with that shambolic groove fiasco that's achieved virtually nothing. The ball is the obvious target for change, [b]just as it was 20 years ago when people like Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson were predicting the future at which we've now arrived.[/b]
[/quote]
And more than likely dismissed as grumpy old men at the time as well...

[maverick]

Can any one correlate lower scores with longer drives? Better putting is the answer.Drive for show, putt for dough still is one of the best saying in golf.



[url="http://espn.go.com/golf/blog/_/name/golf/id/6964954"]Putting Stats[/url]

[Outlier]

Yeah, and on my high-school team Lebron James would have been the Center, not the swingman. In the 1980's Warren Moon was not allowed to play quaterback in the NFL.

Glad you recognize the rule on wedges and grooves is moronic. What do you say to a rule against grooves in putters? The companies sell me that they make imparting a smooth role less about skill and more about their technology. I cannot understand why NOBODY talks about this??
[quote name='mat562' timestamp='1324649598' post='3979487']
I agree. Distances have pretty much peaked. I read an interview recently with a USGA bigwig who said exactly that.

The apocalypse (if that's what you want to call it) has already happened. Distances [i]have [/i]spiralled out of control. The USGA and the R&A missed the boat years ago.

It's not players gaining a couple of yards every other season that's causing the problem. To use that table above, it's the fact that the players who were in the top 3% of driving distance in 1980 are now in the bottom 10% thirty years later. If you drive the ball like Greg Norman did in the late 1980s, you're now in the bottom 10% on tour in terms of driving distance. That's a big change. Everybody on tour hits the ball at least 25 yards longer than they would have done twenty years ago. The big hitters get even more out of their equipment; so much, in fact, that it's totally altered the nature of the game. Lengthening courses was the knee-jerk reaction to it, and had the effect of stacking the deck in favour of the long hitters even more than it was already. It's always been an advantage to hit the ball a long way, but now the tournaments are giving the big hitters an extra leg-up, too and if you're a short hitter (which is probably an oxymoron in pro golf now) you've got an ever diminishing chance to be able to compete on a frequent basis..

The distance problem isn't imagined. It's very real. And it's high time to do something about it - and not with that shambolic groove fiasco that's achieved virtually nothing. The ball is the obvious target for change, just as it was 20 years ago when people like Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson were predicting the future at which we've now arrived.
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[TexMex36]

[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1324499979' post='3972079']
[quote name='Ping Bling' timestamp='1324495731' post='3971753']
I remember watching an interview on tv (I think that it was with Bubba Watson) talking about the sport moving forward. He didn't want things to change (like longer courses and restrictions on the golf ball) because [b]golf is the only sport that doesn't want to evolve[/b]. Guys in the NBA are bigger and faster than guys in the Jordan era but the NBA isnt putting rims up at 15 feet and bringing back the 3 point line another 20 feet. Same thing with the NFL. Quarterbacks with bigger arms arent having to throw lead footballs. J[b]ust leave the game alone and let it evolve!!![/b]!
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So are we saying to let golf evolve or don't want it to evolve? Anyways, basketball still uses the same rim and height and the ball is the same. same goes for football. In golf, the ball has definitely changed to go farther and straighter from 15 years ago while the drivers create more distance than 15 years ago. Guys are getting stronger and bigger, but equipment technology has helped length too.
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Oh sorry if I didn't make it clear the first time, but yes let golf evolve.