MacGregor Clubmaking Equipment

[Old Pro]

I remember a few years back that some wood stamps from MacGregor sold on Ebay. I wonder what happened to all the crown stamps, toe stamps, and neck number embossers. It's not like Golfsmith is going to use them. If you had the neck number embossing equipment, you could refinish your woods and not have to give up the neck numbers. Also crown stamps or toe stamps would also come in handy. I wonder where they went..........

Keith

[teevons]

If I remember right ,those stamps sold on Ebay were won at an auction in Cincinnati. The Ebay seller said they were from a retired Macgregor club-makers estate . I think most of those type items were taken from by the older employees when they got out of making persimmons.
I read that when they made the Centennial set of the M85, 945, LFF and 693 they had a hard time finding the stamps, and color for that matter to make them as the original.

It would be great to hear from any of the older Macgregor clubmakers on this forum, if they were still alive to discuss what they think might have happened with all the old tools and machines from Macgreors plants





[quote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1328504633' post='4222059']
I remember a few years back that some wood stamps from MacGregor sold on Ebay. I wonder what happened to all the crown stamps, toe stamps, and neck number embossers. It's not like Golfsmith is going to use them. If you had the neck number embossing equipment, you could refinish your woods and not have to give up the neck numbers. Also crown stamps or toe stamps would also come in handy. I wonder where they went..........
Keith
[/quote]

[weeicemon]

I know that Green Jacket Auctions recently had a few old Macgregor stamps in their most recent auction

[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1328556779' post='4224073']
If I remember right ,those stamps sold on Ebay were won at an auction in Cincinnati. The Ebay seller said they were from a retired Macgregor club-makers estate . I think most of those type items were taken from by the older employees when they got out of making persimmons.
I read that when they made the Centennial set of the M85, 945, LFF and 693 they had a hard time finding the stamps, and color for that matter to make them as the original.

It would be great to hear from any of the older Macgregor clubmakers on this forum, if they were still alive to discuss what they think might have happened with all the old tools and machines from Macgreors plants





[quote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1328504633' post='4222059']
I remember a few years back that some wood stamps from MacGregor sold on Ebay. I wonder what happened to all the crown stamps, toe stamps, and neck number embossers. It's not like Golfsmith is going to use them. If you had the neck number embossing equipment, you could refinish your woods and not have to give up the neck numbers. Also crown stamps or toe stamps would also come in handy. I wonder where they went..........
Keith
[/quote]
[/quote]

[Old Pro]

Hey Guys,
If we got some of the stamps, embossing press, and some correct color tinted lacquer, we could refinish these wooden gems to factory correct, factory fresh models. No crazy looking stamps, no thick ugly finishes, and no lost neck numbers. Clubs would be restored like vintage cars. I would imagine that that may affect the classic club prices we are always lamenting.
Nothing breaks my heart more than a 693 or M85 or M09LFF that looks like it was refinished by a third grader. Or a nicely restored club in a wrong color finish (ie. a M85 in black).
The stamps don't appear to be all that expensive. If I purchased them, I would share their use.
Keith

[rex235]

Keith-

+1 to your comments.

If you go to the LH MacGregor EOM Persimmon Drivers thread, you'll see a few clubs from my collection. In addition to those MacGregor Tommy Armour LH 653T sets, included were some of the MacGregor "blanks" from a gentleman in Ottawa, ONT Canada over 10 years ago. These included the MacGregor "Eye-o-Matic" and "Super Eye O Matic" stamps.

[attachment=1036911:100_9663.JPG]

Teevons has them.

[bigeasybri]

Not sure if you guys saw this or not, but there's currently an eBay auction going for a vintage "MT" crown stamp: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-MacGregor-Persimmon-Tourney-MT-Persimmon-Crown-Stamp-LFF-M09T-M55-M85-Eye-/120862934784?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item1c23fe0700

Seller also has a "VIP" stamp for sale.

Bidding appears serious.






Standard disclaimer: I am not the seller.

[Maxwell]

[size="3"][color="#006400"]Teevons wrote - "It would be great to hear from any of the older MacGregor clubmakers on this forum, if they were still alive to discuss what they think might have happened with all the old tools and machines from MacGregors plants".

[/color]I also think it would have been interesting to read or listen to "how the older Macs" were manufactured. I little while ago I was contacted by a gentleman who worked for Hillerich Bradsby in the golf club manufacturing branch. He was living outside the state of Kentucky but near by. He had started work at HB in the early 60's. I think he was in his late 70's and had some health problems. We did try to communicate but there were some "other concerns" in his life at that time of writing. "Bella Woods" who is a member at GolfWRX also wrote to the gentleman and they also spoke over the phone.

Reading what Charley Penna writes is always interesting and helpful. Same for Tad Moore. [/size]

[Llortamaisey]

I know Don kept and bought a lot of the stuff he used at MacGregor. He said that when the end came, everyone took what they could. He has a garage full clubs and equipment from his Mac days. The clubs are prototypes that have probably never seen the light of day.

DW also said that everything that was left was sold off and Golfsmith didn't get any physical equipment, fixtures, or property.

[xgolfx]

I disagree about using stamps in refinish. In order to do so, you would need to sand off too much wood thereby destroying the crown and possibly ruining the face progression, appearance. I do have a CHARLEY PENNA stamp.. The operation was usually performed by a woman before the club was lacquered. If the stamp bounced or was not properly centered,a cheap shaft and grip was installed, the club was rest amped and it was a store club

CHARLEY PENNA

[Old Pro]

Mr. Penna,
I agree with you in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen too many rare drivers and woods that looked like a three year old picked out the stamps. They end up making a nice wood either worthless or in need of a new refinish. I've also seen a really nice set of M43s that were refinished and the sanded off most of the crown stamp. In these cases the material has already been removed so restamping would somewhat restore them. Especially on rare woods.
Keith

[Bella Woods]

[quote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1329949579' post='4352995']
Mr. Penna,
I agree with you in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen too many rare drivers and woods that looked like a three year old picked out the stamps. They end up making a nice wood either worthless or in need of a new refinish. I've also seen a really nice set of M43s that were refinished and the sanded off most of the crown stamp. In these cases the material has already been removed so restamping would somewhat restore them. Especially on rare woods.
Keith
[/quote]

Old Pro:

One other option is a decal on a poorly etched stamping (say a Winged MT). When properly done, a decal over a faint or poorly etched
stamping can look pretty decent, and the sanding etc that Charley is referring to is not necessary.

Personally, I have always been what I would refer to as a "minimalist" when it comes to refinishing persimmon woods golf clubs - for
the exact reasons that Charley mentions. The older the club - the more so. Not just crown/progression issues, but many times someone
will refinish a persimmon wood and have no idea what the beginning or ending, bulge/roll/loft etc was, or even is [u]after[/u] the refinish. Kind
of renders the club not even "hittable" in many respects - or at least not what it was meant to be.

You can't beat the original state of the club, or as close as you can come to it "naturally" in my opinion. More often than not,
this means leaving small dents/imperfections on the club during a refinish, or just "moving around" the original stain still existing
on the club. I know everybody has their own opinion on this subject, and on many clubs this is not even possible.

Not to be to harsh, but anybody can sand the piss out of a persimmon wood, make it pretty, make it shine, and apply polyurethane.
Really, not that much skill involved if you are just blindly refinishing the club with no care as to the clubs original (or desired) specs etc.
If you are using anything more than light contour hand sanding, the club probably won't be anything near what it used to be anyway.

My biggest pet peeve - I can't tell you how many refinished classic persimmon woods I have seen that have a 6 or 7 degree loft and a
nice polyurethane finish (on a club that is supposed to be 10 plus degrees loft and was made 10 years before polyurethane existed).

I'm getting off on a tangent...........

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1329962895' post='4354737']
[quote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1329949579' post='4352995']
Mr. Penna,
I agree with you in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen too many rare drivers and woods that looked like a three year old picked out the stamps. They end up making a nice wood either worthless or in need of a new refinish. I've also seen a really nice set of M43s that were refinished and the sanded off most of the crown stamp. In these cases the material has already been removed so restamping would somewhat restore them. Especially on rare woods.
Keith
[/quote]

Old Pro:

One other option is a decal on a poorly etched stamping (say a Winged MT). When properly done, a decal over a faint or poorly etched
stamping can look pretty decent, and the sanding etc that Charley is referring to is not necessary.

Personally, I have always been what I would refer to as a "minimalist" when it comes to refinishing persimmon woods golf clubs - for
the exact reasons that Charley mentions. The older the club - the more so. Not just crown/progression issues, but many times someone
will refinish a persimmon wood and have no idea what the beginning or ending, bulge/roll/loft etc was, or even is [u]after[/u] the refinish. Kind
of renders the club not even "hittable" in many respects - or at least not what it was meant to be.

You can't beat the original state of the club, or as close as you can come to it "naturally" in my opinion. More often than not,
this means leaving small dents/imperfections on the club during a refinish, or just "moving around" the original stain still existing
on the club. I know everybody has their own opinion on this subject, and on many clubs this is not even possible.

Not to be to harsh, but anybody can sand the piss out of a persimmon wood, make it pretty, make it shine, and apply polyurethane.
Really, not that much skill involved if you are just blindly refinishing the club with no care as to the clubs original (or desired) specs etc.
If you are using anything more than light contour hand sanding, the club probably won't be anything near what it used to be anyway.

My biggest pet peeve - I can't tell you how many refinished classic persimmon woods I have seen that have a 6 or 7 degree loft and a
nice polyurethane finish (on a club that is supposed to be 10 plus degrees loft and was made 10 years before polyurethane existed).

I'm getting off on a tangent...........
[/quote]

U pretty much expressed my feelings

CHARLEY PENNA

[teevons]

Regarding stamps I have has some experiences using them and as Charlie alludes to with the women doing the work in the factory it is an art. One that takes a lot of experiences and skill. Just having a stamp is just the start. You need the right weight hammer, you need a very good type of device to secure the wood to keep it from bouncing, these are all things that a factory had, that the average repairmen does not.
Back in the day if you wanted your Macgregor/Hogan/Spalding redone you could send it to the shop and the artists at the factory would do that for you. It was not till the late 60's seventies when Golf smith/Carl Paul and Golfworks/Roger Maltby, Kenneth Smith did the repairman have any access to the tools or equipment to repair the clubs.

Another issue that has happened is a lot of the clubs available for sale these days have probably been refinished a half a dozen times, at least. It was standard practice to have your woods refinished in the off season at your club by the pros in the club. That is what supplemented their income when the weather kept the golfers out off the course. So if a person refinishes a club now, the stampings most likely are hardly readable, which makes them very difficult to engrave out. Decals are great if you can find them. I know Bella and I have some but very few people do.

I also need to bring up the cost to refinish a club and value. Like Bellas recommends , minimal is best, especially when you are going to play it to keep it as original as possible for its playability. . Even though I can refinish, I love playing old beaters that have never been touched. They are the way they were designed to be played.

What Old Pro is asking is to have them be as original as possible which is great but to ask some one to do the work to make it that way is going to cost 50-100.00 a club depending on who you have do it at today's prices. So lets say you find a nice set of M43s and pay 150 for them. You are going to put at least another 300.00 in them which makes them 450.00 and they still are not original. Most people do not want to pay that for a wall hanger ,so getting a nice set of M43s on Ebay with the crown not real deep for say 125, refinished and playable is a great value.

But there are the purists and there are people who just want a good looking persimmon that they can look at and appreciate it for its beauty.








tquote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1329949579' post='4352995']
Mr. Penna,
I agree with you in theory. Unfortunately, I've seen too many rare drivers and woods that looked like a three year old picked out the stamps. They end up making a nice wood either worthless or in need of a new refinish. I've also seen a really nice set of M43s that were refinished and the sanded off most of the crown stamp. In these cases the material has already been removed so restamping would somewhat restore them. Especially on rare woods.
Keith
[/quote]

[Old Pro]

Guys,
I am in complete agreement with you about maintaining the bulge, roll, loft, face progression, and overall appearance of the club. I'm not even a fan of refinished clubs. My Macgregor collection was around 200 complete sets (1-2-3-4) in near mint original condition with neck numbers. They were as close to the day they left the factory as possible. My point was to the guy who wants to own a M85 or a 693 or a M09LFF, but can't find or afford an original one. If your intent is to refinish it and hang it on the wall, then a deep stamp will look a lot better. I'm more or less playing Devil's advocate. If you can only afford a refinished club for display, this may help it look better.
That being said, I would be patient and find an original. There are a few good ones left (unless Teevons has gotten to them!)
Keith

[teevons]

OMG 200 sets

[Old Pro]

Teevons,
Yep 200. And they are all gone. I sold them in 2002. All I have left is a M85 driver, the Cleveland Dunaway driver, and a custom made persimmon driver.
Keith

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1330009279' post='4357893']
Teevons,
Yep 200. And they are all gone. I sold them in 2002. All I have left is a M85 driver, the Cleveland Dunaway driver, and a custom made persimmon driver.
Keith
[/quote]


200 is the number of club boxes in my attic. I'm in the process of photographing each box . I will be either going to an auction process or a sale when I finish

CHARLEY PENNA

[gatorbob]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1330015511' post='4358577']
[quote name='Old Pro' timestamp='1330009279' post='4357893']
Teevons,
Yep 200. And they are all gone. I sold them in 2002. All I have left is a M85 driver, the Cleveland Dunaway driver, and a custom made persimmon driver.
Keith
[/quote]


200 is the number of club boxes in my attic. I'm in the process of photographing each box . I will be either going to an auction process or a sale when I finish

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

[teevons]

200 boxes of clubs from Charley Penna. I cant imagine the treasures that you must have. That is a once in a lifetime for club collectors!!
Another question I have is , did Toney Penna have children that also have clubs stored away??





200 is the number of club boxes in my attic. I'm in the process of photographing each box . I will be either going to an auction process or a sale when I finish

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

[gatorbob]

Charley.....simply put.....keep all the members here UPDATED and/or INFORMED as to you dispersal plans!! Thank you. By the way, bought a nice set of HWS 4393 in untouched condition recently, going into my collection. Adding pics seems to be more than my computer challenged literacy allows...Have a great day and thank you for all you add to this site, a real treasure!

[rex235]

Charley-

Although I doubt it, please let us know if there are any LH sets among the 200.....

just sayin....

[xgolfx]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1330021207' post='4359337']
Charley-

Although I doubt it, please let us know if there are any LH sets among the 200.....

just sayin....
[/quote]


Sorry, I don't recall any lh clubs

CHARLEY PENNA

[rex235]

Charley-

It's OK.

rex235

[drewspin]

I bought an IRON BYRON metal stamp from one of the eBay auctions. It was given as a gift to a friend.