What makes a classic wedge 'classic'?

[stixman]

It's still frozen here in North West England so I dropped in to our Pro for a chat and showed him a couple of vintage MacGregor wedges. A young guy, he was appalled and said 'you can't use those, they've got no bounce'

I'm not the world's greatest wedge player, I freely admit but I've been happily playing bounce-free wedges all my adult life and I'm probably in good company. The only wedge with bounce I owned was a Hogan equalizer and we didn't get along. Did the Pro's eg. Lee Trevino grind a bit of bounce into their wedges, how did that work? Is it about the course you play on...bounce -free on hard pan and links, bounce on pasture?

So, what constitutes a 'classic'/ vintage wedge and what features do you look for?

[super20dan]

i like vintage wedges with no bounce also. i am very skilled with a wedge and bounce just gets in the way. i recently picked up a hogan power thrust sand iron 45. while sand play isnt its strong suite -finnese shots are a joy with it. another gem is the wilson staff double duty wedge. way better than the famous staff sand wedge. there is also a triple duty wilson staff wedge-also great. mcgreagor murfield 20th is another bounceless gem

[kaboboom]

For this forum, a classic wedge either has to go all the way to 11, or have the name Penna on it. I suspect the "bounce" thing is a product of traps getting "fluffier" in the past few decades. I can't detect much bounce on either of these two wedges, but I just snagged a Hogan Sure Out, and it looks like it is nothing but bounce.

[Staffer]

When the ground is frozen I recommend no bounce - unless there is snow, in which case you need a wedge with plenty of bounce.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='kaboboom' timestamp='1328790401' post='4243871']
For this forum, a classic wedge either has to go all the way to 11, or have the name Penna on it. I suspect the "bounce" thing is a product of traps getting "fluffier" in the past few decades. I can't detect much bounce on either of these two wedges, but I just snagged a Hogan Sure Out, and it looks like it is nothing but bounce.
[/quote]


Thanks for the compliment. I am away from home at the moment but I will show. U wedges which u describe later in the month

CHARLEY PENNA

[bl8d]

[quote name='kaboboom' timestamp='1328790401' post='4243871']
For this forum, a classic wedge either has to go all the way to 11, or have the name Penna on it. I suspect the "bounce" thing is a product of traps getting "fluffier" in the past few decades. I can't detect much bounce on either of these two wedges, but I just snagged a Hogan Sure Out, and it looks like it is nothing but bounce.
[/quote]

I really like your Penna wedge.

Bounce on the flat wedges from that period was manufactured by opening the blade by as much as you needed it. It would then rise up on the sharp trailing edge which would act out as bounce. Given its limitations and its width dependency it worked quite well. Keep in mind that nothing was as lush as today and that the ground game was played a little different from what it is today.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

So riddle me this. If you guys went out for a round today with vintage/classic/old clubs from the 30's or 40's what club and what shot would you play from a typical fluffy, modern country-club bunker?

You know, the kind of bunker where a butterfly would sink in up to his ankles if he landed on freshly power-raked sand?

If you take a <50 degree flat-flanged 9-iron or 10-iron and opened it up would it bounce OK? Or maybe better to just pick it clean.

[Ol_Pardner]

In answer to the original question, "What makes a classic wedge 'classic'?", I would say that it is a combination of design and 'feel.' As with automobiles, a wedge can have MOMA quality design, but feel like a 'rug-beater' when you swing it. Wilson was long regarded as the most innovative and reliable manufacturer fo wedges for years, but even they had a couple of duds.
By the same token, MacGregor was 'generally' reverred for their Drivers and Fwys, while a lot of people doubted their wedges. Some of the other posts are right, about them, though, you should take the opportunity look at and waggle and swing vintage MacGregors (Pennas, Tourneys). When I pick one up, my first thought is this feels good, then I think, I could hit this, followed by, and the ball would go where I hit it. Bottom line: If they weren't good wedges, would Nicklaus, Weiskoph, and in an earlier era Penna, Nelson, and even Hogan before he started his own company have compiled the records they did?
I recently picked up a couple of the "last MT wedges Don White made" for MacGregor, before he moved over to Scratch Golf. If not for the fact that I have been playing a Hogan Equalizer for 32-yrs, one or both of those wedges would be in my bag now.
As to bounce, while it is a quantifiable specification, it could also be considered a relative term in the since that, the degree of bounce that any golfer truly wants or needs is a combination of factors including course and weather conditions, and their swing and personal preferences, i.e. 'feel.' Personally, I have tried 60* and 62* degree wedges with their wider soles and respective 'bounce(s).' Don't like them. Needing higher trajectory is not my problem--tends to be just the opposite--so a 56* BH Hogan Apex PC-SW has more than enough bounce and loft for me.
BOTTOM LINE: Golf clubs are like false teeth, you can't order them through the mail and expect them to 'fit!' Nor can you rely only computer fitting and manufacturer's specs., you've still got to hit the clubs and be satisfied that they work for you!

[okesa]

[size="3"]Henry Cotton in his book 'This Game of Golf' says that "Walter Hagen was about as fine a bunker player as any I have ever seen,even with a narrow-soled niblick."

On the same page there is a picture of Walter Hagen flicking the ball cleanly off the top of the sand in the 1931 Ryder Cup at Columbus.[/size]

[teevons]

+1 To Old pard

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1330104782' post='4367207']
So riddle me this. If you guys went out for a round today with vintage/classic/old clubs from the 30's or 40's what club and what shot would you play from a typical fluffy, modern country-club bunker?

You know, the kind of bunker where a butterfly would sink in up to his ankles if he landed on freshly power-raked sand?

If you take a <50 degree flat-flanged 9-iron or 10-iron and opened it up would it bounce OK? Or maybe better to just pick it clean.
[/quote]


When you speak of MacGregor wedges designed by Toney Penna, I think I know a little about the design theory. Remember, Toney was a player BEFORE his friendGene Sarazen( my grandfather and Sarazen's father were finishing carpenters, came over on the same boat from Sicily, and settled in Harrison, New York) invented the sand wedge. Any player worth his salt used a sand wedge ONLY in sand. The player nhad the skill to use a niblick or w nine iron to play any repeat any shot from grass. Also, the skilled player NEVER hit a wedge more than 70-80%.
I am prejudiced, but I think the Penna is the easiest playing SAND
club ever made

CHARLEY PENNA

[weeicemon]

Everyone has their own opinion but for me, the Wilson Staff sand wedges from 1956-1961 were the best ever. These are the ones with the black "plug" on the sole. Versions from 1962 and up had a red "plug". There were so many tour players using these vintage wedges that their popularity (and prices) grew and grew. Tom Watson holed out on the 17th at Pebble with a vintage Wilson Staff SW. To me, it has always been easy to see which clubs were truly the best - look into a tour player's bag. Back in the late 50s, the 60s, & even the 70s, tour players played to put a roof over their family's head and food on the table. They weren't going to use equipment that was sub-standard. I would bet that there were more W/S sand wedges in play of the tour than any other wedge during this time. During the heyday of classic club collecting, the prices escalated with their popularity. I had a Japanese connection back in the 80s and remember selling a mint 1956-57 model for around $700.

[teevons]

For you Penna wedge fans I dug out a few I have. The Expediters are heavy.They are Pieces of art if you ask me.
Sorry Rex, no lefties
I really like the Penna VIP 11 with the older version of his signature on muscle pad. I think it has been rechromed in a satin finish

There are 2 Penna Wedges TP1 & TPA
TP VIP 65
EX 985
EX DX
EX LDX
VIP 11










[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1330186802' post='4373813']
[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1330104782' post='4367207']
So riddle me this. If you guys went out for a round today with vintage/classic/old clubs from the 30's or 40's what club and what shot would you play from a typical fluffy, modern country-club bunker?

You know, the kind of bunker where a butterfly would sink in up to his ankles if he landed on freshly power-raked sand?

If you take a <50 degree flat-flanged 9-iron or 10-iron and opened it up would it bounce OK? Or maybe better to just pick it clean.
[/quote]


When you speak of MacGregor wedges designed by Toney Penna, I think I know a little about the design theory. Remember, Toney was a player BEFORE his friendGene Sarazen( my grandfather and Sarazen's father were finishing carpenters, came over on the same boat from Sicily, and settled in Harrison, New York) invented the sand wedge. Any player worth his salt used a sand wedge ONLY in sand. The player nhad the skill to use a niblick or w nine iron to play any repeat any shot from grass. Also, the skilled player NEVER hit a wedge more than 70-80%.
I am prejudiced, but I think the Penna is the easiest playing SAND
club ever made

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

[okesa]

[size="3"]Teevons,those are magnificent!A poor offering of my own but will hopefully help Rex not feel 'left' out!

'Tourney Custom' 'the 985' shaft band 'Tourney St....'[/size]

[teevons]

Okesa, I have some lefty macs, just no Penna LH macs. That Custom LH 985 is a rare one!!


[quote name='okesa' timestamp='1330200916' post='4375119']
[size="3"]Teevons,those are magnificent!A poor offering of my own but will hopefully help Rex not feel 'left' out!

'Tourney Custom' 'the 985' shaft band 'Tourney St....'[/size]
[/quote]

[rex235]

Teevons-

Thanks for thinking about me. Have more than 30 different SWs...

All the different W/S Dynapowers from 1957-75, including one of the first LH W/S Dynapower SWs.

Charley-

Like the LH MacGregor SWs, but never found any Penna SWs....that's why this MT "TP" SW is special.
[attachment=1042345:100_9375.JPG]

Okesa-

Yes, that's a rare LH MacGregor Tourney Custom 985 SW, but trust me....

[okesa]

[size="3"]Thank you teevons,I meant to add how much I admire your photography,so often it's difficult to see exactly what you want to see (like with mine!) but you manage to get great clarity and composition,my compliments sir!
Just love that wedge with the gold 'fangs' ferrule,you know it's one of those clubs that you would just have in the bag for its presence,testament again to the design skills of Toney Penna,I have just managed to source a copy of his book which I am eagerly awaiting.[/size]

[rex235]

....Have got enough SWs.....

[attachment=1042341:wedges.jpg]

[attachment=1042327:100_9271.JPG]

and am a big Wilson fan....

[attachment=1042335:100_9289.JPG]

[teevons]

Thank you, it must be the camera!


I agree on the ferrules,just another Penna touch

You must have got his book off Ebay, I saw that for sale but already have it, I thought of bidding just because they are very hard to come by, enjoy the book, some of his stores about him and the rat pack are hilarious





[quote name='okesa' timestamp='1330209828' post='4375977']
[size="3"]Thank you teevons,I meant to add how much I admire your photography,so often it's difficult to see exactly what you want to see (like with mine!) but you manage to get great clarity and composition,my compliments sir!
Just love that wedge with the gold 'fangs' ferrule,you know it's one of those clubs that you would just have in the bag for its presence,testament again to the design skills of Toney Penna,I have just managed to source a copy of his book which I am eagerly awaiting.[/size]
[/quote]

[okesa]

[size="3"]Found one in the UK,I did see the copy on Ebay ut by the time I've bid,paid shipping and then been mugged by HM Revenue and Customs it would have worked out the same especially as Customs now charge duty on the value of the item and ALSO the cost of shipping!Legalised robbery.[/size]

[teevons]

Love that Dynapower custom grind with the numbers on the back and no plug, very cool, you were not LEFT OUT on that one





[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1330210060' post='4375999']
....Have got enough SWs.....

[attachment=1042341:wedges.jpg]

[attachment=1042327:100_9271.JPG]

and am a big Wilson fan....

[attachment=1042335:100_9289.JPG]
[/quote]

[stixman]

Thanks to all for their contributions on this topic. The photos and the associated glitz were inspirational. I had half expected something more on the development and design elements but I guess these are lost in the mazey history of the game.
Someone, a designer or player must have spearheaded the development of the broad soled niblick for work around the green, but who. McClain, Hagen and Sarazen created the principles for reliable sand play we know, but the wedge, who knows?

[R_Series]

Pretty rare to find any old wedge or new one for that matter, that does not have some bounce. Narrower soles usually have more pronounced bounce and the wider soles need to be laid open more to achieve the bounce, At least this is true for the 56 degree models. If your wedge truly has no bounce you may want to check the loft as it may be playing strong.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='R_Series' timestamp='1331271640' post='4467739']
Pretty rare to find any old wedge or new one for that matter, that does not have some bounce. Narrower soles usually have more pronounced bounce and the wider soles need to be laid open more to achieve the bounce, At least this is true for the 56 degree models. If your wedge truly has no bounce you may want to check the loft as it may be playing strong.
[/quote]


penna wedge had loft 54 degrees , lie 64


CHARLEY PENNA

[winwin]

I like Kaboboom's definition, too.

Question: During the 'classic' wedge years, was 'bounce' even around? For exiting traps at that time, wasn't a wedge's depth-of-sole (from leading edge to back) what mattered - along with the shot-style of the day: open stance; open face; outside-in swing path - to blast and not dig-in.

I think the first I even heard the term 'bounce' was in the late '70s. And during a lesson in the '90s, my instructor remarked on my '82 irons' 'bounce'. [I didn't order them 'with bounce', but that may have been 'standard' then].

Now it's 'lofts' options as-well

A 'classic' '11' and a 'TP1' sure works just fine for me - KISS principle..

Win

[ChristianMc]

I play a TP Expeditor wedge from 1965 as part of my regular set. Great club with FC face. I noticed in the Kaplan entries that in 1964 the Expeditor wedges are listed, then no wedge listing for '65 and then in the '66 entry the model was obviously not continued. But in the '66 listing they divide the wedge category into sand wedge then pitching wedge. Before this it only seems to be 'wedges' listed in Kaplan except for the odd novelty sand wedge. Would there be a differnece in loft between the expeditors style models before '66 versus let say the RMT or DX sand model of '66?? Both are very similar model designs. Charley Penna stated that the Penna Expeditor was 54 deg. Were the similar sand models higher in loft? Obscure question I know but thought I would put it out there.
Part of my reasoning for this question is whether I should get a sand model to complement my current expeditor, but I won't if the lofts are the same.
Thanks,
Christian.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='ChristianMc' timestamp='1334510858' post='4726030']
I play a TP Expeditor wedge from 1965 as part of my regular set. Great club with FC face. I noticed in the Kaplan entries that in 1964 the Expeditor wedges are listed, then no wedge listing for '65 and then in the '66 entry the model was obviously not continued. But in the '66 listing they divide the wedge category into sand wedge then pitching wedge. Before this it only seems to be 'wedges' listed in Kaplan except for the odd novelty sand wedge. Would there be a differnece in loft between the expeditors style models before '66 versus let say the RMT or DX sand model of '66?? Both are very similar model designs. Charley Penna stated that the Penna Expeditor was 54 deg. Were the similar sand models higher in loft? Obscure question I know but thought I would put it out there.
Part of my reasoning for this question is whether I should get a sand model to complement my current expeditor, but I won't if the lofts are the same.
Thanks,
Christian.
[/quote]
In the spec book, the 1961 Penna wedge has loft 53 1/2, lie 64 degrees. All the other wedges have only general orders for specs
MY Guess would be that great latitude was given to the grinder who did the operation.

CHARLEY PENNA

[rex235]

[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1330215613' post='4376401']
Love that Dynapower custom grind with the numbers on the back and no plug, very cool, you were not LEFT OUT on that one





[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1330210060' post='4375999']
....Have got enough SWs.....

[attachment=1042341:wedges.jpg]

[attachment=1042327:100_9271.JPG]

and am a big Wilson fan....

[attachment=1042335:100_9289.JPG]
[/quote]



[/quote]

Teevons-

The auction ended yesterday on Ebay for that 1960-61 Wilson Staff Dynapower Sand Wedge....

[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wilson-Staff-Model-DYNA-POWERED-1960-1961-Sand-Wedge-/330713678835?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D230648126542%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7561499589043992598"]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wilson-Staff-Model-DYNA-POWERED-1960-1961-Sand-Wedge-/330713678835?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D230648126542%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7561499589043992598[/url]

Although it's not in as good condition as any of your MacGregors, it's far more than likely to be from the same custom family as the W/S Dynapower SW Tom Watson used to chip in on 17 at Pebble Beach on the 71st hole of the 1982 US Open.

And is the best answer to the question posed at the top of this thread..

just sayin...

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1330210060' post='4375999']
....Have got enough SWs.....

[attachment=1042341:wedges.jpg]

[attachment=1042327:100_9271.JPG]

and am a big Wilson fan....

[attachment=1042335:100_9289.JPG]
[/quote]
Rex, you gotta quit taking those pictures of your clubs in the mirror. I don't know how the clubs appear in mirror image;but the stampings are normal.
Great pics of great clubs, Burton.
Bob

[rex235]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1334626488' post='4734796']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1330210060' post='4375999']
....Have got enough SWs.....

[attachment=1042341:wedges.jpg]

[attachment=1042327:100_9271.JPG]

and am a big Wilson fan....

[attachment=1042335:100_9289.JPG]
[/quote]
Rex, you gotta quit taking those pictures of your clubs in the mirror. I don't know how the clubs appear in mirror image;but the stampings are normal.
Great pics of great clubs, Burton.
Bob
[/quote]

Bob-
Thanks.
A good design is timeless, from either side of the ball, and a good LH club from this period sticks out like a shark among minnows. The '59-60 Wilson Staff Dynapower Wedge looks good from either side of the ball

In your collection is the one of the very few LH IronMaster putters.
I'm still awestruck that MacGregor actually made one.

Would you rather I showed you this RH MacGregor wedge?
[attachment=1123402:100_8222.JPG]