My TIGER-stepped WEDGE EXPERIMENT!!

[Frank Ricard]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1368869396' post='7058462']
You missed it all :-)
I suggest you read whats in here, instead of trowing out a lot you could read is wrong. Nobody sais Tiger plays S400 #8 irons shafts, so if you cant read and understand that we are talking 2 VERY different thing, and dont even know where to start from, you will never get there. [/quote]

I am going to get this out of the way, so I can get on to responding: Theres absolutely no reason for you to preface your response in this manner. I certainly did not 'miss it all'. I obviously mistakenly transposed 8i for 9i regarding Tigers wedge setup... sue me. However I specifically wrote in my post that 'Tiger stepping' and the 8i spinner shaft setup are different and even posted (from a less technical aspect) why. Didn't you 'read and understand that'?

I read numerous threads on this subject on the forum and I am fairly sure, every post you made on the subject, and still had some questions. Does this really necessitate denigration?

Anyway, I'll quote whats applicable to my post:
[size=4][quote][/size]
Tip trimming a DG Taper tip shaft by 3/8 gives 2-3 CPM stronger flex, so is we use FCM 6.1 as S400 strait in, a "Tiger stepped" S400 #9 iron shaft would play to FCM 6.3- 6.4, While Tigers irons who is X100 tipped, would play to FCM 7.0 - 7.1
This sound like they would be close, but thats not right, because wedges got a different BBGM and a higher SW value than irons, so in play the wedges will be quite a bit softer than this, depending on those 2 factors.
[size=4][/quote][/size]

So, WHY is he playing this setup in his wedges? Is there a logic behind it other than personal preference? The inherent 'advantages' of the 8i spinner wedge setup are discussed ad nauseam, but not Tigers setup, and I'd like to learn about it.


Thanks

[Frank Ricard]

Bump.

[Howard_Jones]

Im not, Tiger Woods, so i cant answer why he does this. I dont know the man, and i never meet him, ive only seen the specs he plays.

[Swoosh-Thud]

I just pulled my DG Spinners from a spare set of 55* & 59* wedges. (My current ones have S 400.)

I agree they (spinners) do spin nicely, but don't go far on full shots, very fickle into the wind.

I had an extra set of X100 shafts I pulled lying around. I did the 8i straight in and then tipped the 7i 1/2" and reamed out the last 1/8-1/4" of the hosel to get er fit in.

I play Monaco S in most of my irons. I also put in a TC S3(W)in another 54* just for kicks and to compare with a Monaco I have in a 52*.

[Howard_Jones]

....and how did that play for you. ?

[Frank Ricard]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1369071381' post='7069888']
Im not, Tiger Woods, so i cant answer why he does this. I dont know the man, and i never meet him, ive only seen the specs he plays.
[/quote]

You obviously have a high level of understanding on the subject, I am sure you can theorize as to the performance of Tigers wedge setup... In comparison to the 8i spinner trick or a standard wedge shaft, for example.

[Howard_Jones]

Here is a set of X100 Ti made 5/8 above standard or with a #5 iron of 38 5/8 if you like
Iron heads is Scratch Blades, and from PW and up there is Scratch 1018

GW/SW is tipped X100 #9 iron shaft
SW/LW is tipped S400 #9

Just look at how CPM drops, even with tipping when we goes into wedges

[attachment=1692434:DGX100c.PNG]

If we use #8 irons, it would be just like going SS1 from this numbers, (minus 3 CPM) and thats in this case adding tip length, while if he was playing S300 as iron shafts, using X100 #8 iron shafts would mean going shorter in tip length, so it depend on where you start from in irons, for what "difference" that means for you.

The set in the link has:
True SW value with a 50 gram grip
Irons to PW/47 is D7
GW/SW 53 is E0
SW/LW 58 is D8.5

Irons BBGM is 1 3/16
Wedges BBGM is 1 12/16

This player plays all but his SW/LW - 58 to full swing, but did not want to go softer in his Lob than a tipped S400
- Its all personal preference and how it all works for the player.

EDIT:
- Also pay attention to what happens with NET shaft weight when we go into wedges.
They drop 4 grams because BBGM is higher, and that we keep cutting of the butt by 2/8 for each club shorter from #9 and down.
Thats another reason to go up in shaft weight when we move in to wedges, because you will lose some weight if you like it or not.

[Howard_Jones]

For those of you who loves to dive into numbers like this, follow me on this one.
- The set above uses a X100 #9 iron shafts in 3 heads, but since both play length and BBGM is different, using the same shaft means using different length of the butt of the shaft.

The difference in BBGM is 9/16, so that alone means 9/16 shorter butt from this sets #9 iron to his 1018 PW
Then comes another 4/16 butt cutt down to play length, so the total difference to the butt side is 13/16 from #9 to PW
GW/SW got the same BBGM as the PW so no more worries about that, but then we cut another 4/16 of the butt, or do we have to ?
NO - we simply cut that 4/16 from the tip, so we can use equal butt length as the PW got, and still play it 0.25 shorter.
Thats how we can use the "Tiger step" method to keep flex as strong as possible.

Since there in this case was 3 x 9 irons involved, its smart to both scale them and Flo them so you can measure both the strongest and the weakest side. Even DG TI can have minor differences, and you can take advantage of them for flex matching. When we go shorter, we wants to go stronger, and the shafts down in the short dont flex much anyway, so we can go for progression if we like.
Sort the short shafts from softest to strongest, no matter if you use the strong or weak side. They hardly ever vary with more than 1-2 Cpm so there is no asymmetric behavior really who can make a difference to what side you are using target line.
- Just choose the side that fits best to the CPM slope you try to make, and forget the "rule" who say weakest side target line, and strongest side up/town to prevent toe drop. How much toe drop can be prevented by 1 CPM or 2 ?, and isn't lie angle adjustment a separate task ? It should be, so go for the slope you can make from mixing the strong and the weak against target line, and adjust by tip trim if, and when needed. Thats IMO the way to do it, but there is other opinions who say something else.
IMO, a shaft who both have a good FLO and takes its place in the set also on CPM, cant be made any better.

[04chase]

I need to shaft somemiura wedges I just picked up. I play px 6.5 in my 3-pw and 6.0 in my sw and lw. I'm new to club building but would like to attempt this. From my understanding I need a 7.0 px 8 iron shaft slightly tipped and butt trimed to legnth. My question is how much to tio trim and should I go to 7.0 and trim less to get it to the likeness of 6.5 or a bit more to get it to a 6.0?

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='04chase' timestamp='1369148901' post='7076426']
I need to shaft somemiura wedges I just picked up. I play px 6.5 in my 3-pw and 6.0 in my sw and lw. I'm new to club building but would like to attempt this. From my understanding I need a 7.0 px 8 iron shaft slightly tipped and butt trimed to legnth. My question is how much to tio trim and should I go to 7.0 and trim less to get it to the likeness of 6.5 or a bit more to get it to a 6.0?
[/quote]

PX is made down to PW, so using a #8 iron shaft is SS2, so if we just follow rules of thumb, we start by adding 5 CPM going from 6.5 to 7.0, and then we dropp 2x 3-4 or about 6-7 down again, ending op slightly softer, but with more weight. PX is IMO monster stiff, so if we make a Scratch 1018 head with 60 loft to my standard play length of 35.00 with a grip on, we can compare Butt CPM of a PX 6.5 #8 iron to other known shafts to this others like this. Its all measured as "net shafts" to play length with a 2.5 inch clamp and a 285 grams drill chuck

S400 #8 = 362
S400 #9 = 370
X100 #8 = 376
X100 #9 = 382
Tour X7 #8 = 385
PX 6.5 #8 = 388
Tour X7 #9 = 391
Tour X7 SW = 404 (it does not exist any shafts stronger than this as far as i know, so if there is any, PX 7.0 as #9 and PW might be the ones)

I dont have butt CPM on PX 7.0 as #8 or #9, but it cant be that many players who need wedges that stiff.

[bullrambler]

It's a good idea to re-read the posts and get the visual on what is being suggested. It's a new concept to a lot of golfers, and a couple of WRX you-tube posts would make it blatently clear. I get it, but some are just not quite there yet...

[Frank Ricard]

Howard, very informative posts, much appreciate. Does your client prefers this LW setup because hes not hitting any full shots with that club, so the feel provided by the softer flex is more important than any increase in ball flight he might see from the weaker shaft?

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Frank Ricard' timestamp='1369196390' post='7082322']
Howard, very informative posts, much appreciate. Does your client prefers this LW setup because hes not hitting any full shots with that club, so the feel provided by the softer flex is more important than any increase in ball flight he might see from the weaker shaft?
[/quote]

I wrote it in the post with specs on the set of X100:

"[color=#282828]This player plays all but his SW/LW - 58 to full swing, but did not want to go softer in his Lob than a tipped S400[/color]
[color=#282828]- Its all personal preference and how it all works for the player."

His "natural" options was ( TS = Tiger stepped or tipped 3/8)[/color]

S400 #8 ........= 362 CPM - Tip to first step 8.5
S400 #8 T.S = 364 CPM .- Tip to first step 8.5 - minus 3/8 = 8 1/8
[color=#282828]S400 #9 ........= 370 CPM - Tip to first step 8.0[/color]
S400 #9 T.S = 372 [color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 8.0 - minus 3/8 = 7 5/8[/color]
[color=#282828]X100 #8 ....... = 376 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.5[/color]
X100 #8 T.S = 378 [color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.5 - minus 3/8 = 6 1/8[/color]
[color=#282828]X100 #9 ........ = 382 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.0[/color]
[color=#282828]X100 #9 T.S...= 384 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.0 - minus 3/8 = 5 5/8[/color]
[color=#282828]Tour X7 #8.... = 385 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 7.5[/color]

[color=#282828]_ WE ended up using S400 #9, tipped 3/8 who moves 370 up to 372/373, so a X100 #8 would have been stronger if we measure butt CPM only.[/color]

[Frank Ricard]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1369200651' post='7082608']
I wrote it in the post with specs on the set of X100:

[b]"[color=#282828]This player plays all but his SW/LW - 58 to full swing, but did not want to go softer in his Lob than a tipped S400[/color][/b]
[color=#282828][b]- Its all personal preference and how it all works for the player."[/b]

His "natural" options was ( TS = Tiger stepped or tipped 3/8)[/color]

S400 #8 ........= 362 CPM - Tip to first step 8.5
S400 #8 T.S = 364 CPM .- Tip to first step 8.5 - minus 3/8 = 8 1/8
[color=#282828]S400 #9 ........= 370 CPM - Tip to first step 8.0[/color]
S400 #9 T.S = 372 [color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 8.0 - minus 3/8 = 7 5/8[/color]
[color=#282828]X100 #8 ....... = 376 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.5[/color]
X100 #8 T.S = 378 [color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.5 - minus 3/8 = 6 1/8[/color]
[color=#282828]X100 #9 ........ = 382 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.0[/color]
[color=#282828]X100 #9 T.S...= 384 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 6.0 - minus 3/8 = 5 5/8[/color]
[color=#282828]Tour X7 #8.... = 385 [/color][color=#282828]CPM - Tip to first step 7.5[/color]

[color=#282828]_ WE ended up using S400 #9, tipped 3/8 who moves 370 up to 372/373, so a X100 #8 would have been stronger if we measure butt CPM only.[/color]
[/quote]

I read that, and then saw where it would slot in. How does the Butt CPM compare to the 2.5 and 5 CPM in regards to wedges? The cut CPM of the LW in your sheet you provided plays in between a 9 and PW... but the 2.5 and 5" clamps play weaker. What affect does this produce in the shaft compared to a 'normal' setup? This subject is very interesting to me as I have never heard of people playing softer LW's, and why they prefer this setup intrigues me. I am trying to dial in my wedge setup...I probably wont get it right the first time, but I'd like to try.

I am trying to learn as much as I can from you regarding this, as you are the only person on this site (and hence who I can talk to) that discusses it. So I realize some of my questions re-tread on parts of previous information you have posted, and I apologize. But please be aware every time I ask a semi-redundant question, you expound further on the subject.... which I appreciate.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Only hit them on the range as they topped the greens on Monday. FWIW they felt good.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1369081858' post='7071048']
I just pulled my DG Spinners from a spare set of 55* & 59* wedges. (My current ones have S 400.)

I agree they (spinners) do spin nicely, but don't go far on full shots, very fickle into the wind.

I had an extra set of X100 shafts I pulled lying around. I did the 8i straight in and then tipped the 7i 1/2" and reamed out the last 1/8-1/4" of the hosel to get er fit in.

I play Monaco S in most of my irons. I also put in a TC S3(W)in another 54* just for kicks and to compare with a Monaco I have in a 52*.
[/quote]

OK - you did it, tell us more :-)

[Howard_Jones]

Ive tried to explain this several times, but il do it again. Measuring butt CPM is only to get to know a small part of the shaft. I tells almost nothing about how that shaft would play or feel. To get an idea of that, we need zone flex numbers from the hole shaft like Tom Wishons shaft profiling system got, where a IRON shaft is split up in 6 zones from the first zone, the tip 11" inch long, and then points of 5 inch longer for each zone. But still, the players way of swinging the club, and his personal preference for feel always has the last word, no number does. Thats why butt CPM is only useful to compare 2 shafts who say they are equal, or a set of shafts we use to build a set of flex matched irons from the same model and flex.. For all other purposes, sone flex is needed to understand what we are into, and whats going to happen when.....

When i measure DG 100 with a 2.5 inch clamp, slope as a SET is about 4.4 CPM for each 0.5 shorter, or close to Rifle at 4.3 but its steeper on DG.
If i measure the same DG shafts with a 5.0 clamp, a slope of 5.4 is normal, and thats why many who compares a set of DG to a Rifle shaft will think that their irons flex is "all over the place", and compared to Rifle they should be. They start softer in the long, and ends stronger in the short if you look on the FCM chart for a 2.5 clamp, but DG was never made to be judged this way at all, no matter clamp. They are designed in a time where flex board and deflection was the way to measure flex, and the method is still used on many shafts.

There is also a lof of factor to be aware of when comparing and exchanging specs like this.
- There is tolerances in production of the shaft
- Clamping pressure must be correct
- Beam length must be equal
- Head weight and COG must be equal (Swing weight)
- Shaft orientation must be right - Weak or strong side ?
- Most CPM readers dont use decimals, so 299.4 = 299, and 299.6 = 300

That means as a sum, that even 2 shafts thats "equal by label" would never be digitally equal in the reader, only as average.
Thats why its normal to see a flex slope whos not equal from shaft to shaft, especially on shaft who was not designed to be judged this way like DG.
-
Thats why i wish i could offer you deflection numbers on all this different wedge options of DG alone, butt i only have those numbers from Dave Summitt and his Shaft addendum, so there is only #5 irons shafts, no #8, but some #9, but none of them is tip trimmed tapers.

[url="http://blog.hirekogolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013SFAchapter4.pdf"]http://blog.hirekogo...SFAchapter4.pdf[/url]

Page 153 for DG 37" iron shafts, and page 152 for 39" long #5 iron shafts

But also look on step pattern, length of butt and tip section on the play ready club by using this chart, and compare that to using your own #9 iron shaft for wedges to, and you will have a good idea of what direction you go.

[url="http://www.truetemper.com/golf/shadow/DYNAMIC%20GOLD%20FOR%20WEB%20PAGE.PDF"]http://www.truetempe...OR WEB PAGE.PDF[/url]

The 36.50 long PW shaft in that chart is very hard to find, but Joe Kwok seems to be able to get them.

[Howard_Jones]

If you want to know more about Head specs and its influence on flex, see this link, and especially post #9
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/840298-fcm-rifle-65-how-to-tell-if-flighted-version-or-not-tip-trim-instructions/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...m-instructions/[/url]

Here i explain how to calck flex on Rifle shafts, and the hosel specs influence on play flex, and the same thing happen with us here, on DG with tapers when we go from irons to wedges. A higher BBGM changes flex, and if you wants to learn more about what goes down, and how to do the math, that link will be use full. With Rifles you dont need a CPM reader to make them correct to flex, and thats quite funny since they started it all.

Good reading, and keep asking questions, thats how you get answers :-)

[Howard_Jones]

@Frank Richard

Your question
"[color=#282828] The cut CPM of the LW in your sheet you provided plays in between a 9 and PW."
Rememer that the spec sheet and the collons to the right is play ready clubs, with different length and SW value

#9 = 36 5/8 - D7 - 324/354
PW = 36 3/8 - D7 - 323/351
GW = 36 1/8 E0 - 322/350
LW = 35 7/8 D 8.5 - 316/336

1 SW point extra, give a reading who is 1 lower, so we must add 3 CPM to the GWs numbers and then they are 325/353 at SW D7
and the LW would gain 1.5 CPM so lets use 2 and they will be 318/338

But that was only equalizing for SW difference, now we must adjust for club length difference
If we use 4.4 as natural slop on DG with a 2.5 clamp for each 0.5 shorter, then we should expect 2.2 or 2.0 when we use 0.25 shorter like here. If we judge it by a 5.0 inch clamp, normal slope is 5.4 at 0.5 or 2.75 = 3 on this set.

Then we start with the #9 iron and count us up, to see a full flex slope progression, so we can judge if we go softer or stronger[/color]
[color=#282828]#9 = 36 5/8 - D7 - 324/354[/color]
[color=#282828]PW at D7 should be 326/357
GW at D7 should be 328/360
LW at D7 should be 330/363

Where did we end up, compared to that on the set i made ?[/color]
[color=#282828]#9 = 36 5/8 - D7 - 324/354[/color]
[color=#282828]PW = 36 3/8 - D7 - 323/351 Full flex slope 326/357 = -3/-6 (equals to SS1)[/color]
[color=#282828]GW = 36 1/8 E0 - 322/350 adjusted for SW = 325/353 - Full flex slope = [/color][color=#282828]328/360 = -3/-7 [/color][color=#282828] (equals to SS1)[/color]
[color=#282828]LW = 35 7/8 D 8.5 - 316/336 adjusted for SW = 318/338 - Full flex slope = 330/363 = -12/-25 [/color][color=#282828] (equals to SS4)[/color]

[color=#282828]We DID go softer, a lot into wedges, so tipping the GW 3/8 saved it form being -5/-9 (SS2) compared to the 9 irons flex, and the LW could have been -14/-28 (SS5) without tip trim of 3/8[/color]

[bullrambler]

Thanks for posting the chart Howard there is a lot of useful information there. I can there that there are some consistencies and some inconsistenties. The Consistencies are the Brand of shaft, the weight, the initial length / the play length, butt trim and designated flex. There are variables among the CPM numbers between the shafts and they can be seen as minor inconsistences.

When I think of a custom set of clubs - especially the irons, One has to consider the weight of each head and how it may effect the club after it's built. I figured we were at a place and time in our engineering where everything could be maticulously matched up. I guess we can see a closely matched set, but it seems that it can't be refined down to a completely - evenly match set in all factors.

However I expect that there are a lot of OEM sets on the shelves that may not be as close as we would hope they would be.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Hit them again at the range- didn't make it out on the course- again the greens were topped on Monday so no point in trying to judge spin.

The TC S3 54* Miura Black was just awful- absolutely terrible. No distance, never got it to fly, just an absolute dog.

The 52* Monaco Fourteen is solid. Perfect progression from my PW.

The Tiger wedge Miura C 55* & 59* feel great. No loss of distance, easy to load on 1/2-3/4 shots, flight down nicely- a good set up.

I can't really properly comment on flight as I flight all my irons, especially my 1/2 & 3/4 wedges, but I did hit some high for completeness. I'd like to say they did not fly as high as DG spinners. DG spinners did feel softer but coming from Monacos and Steelfibers the Tiger wedge loaded/unloaded nicely and much closer in feel to the irons than the spinners.

I also hit my 57* Vega Raw with a KBS wedge shaft. Very high flight, the 59* went farther though.

I can't comment on spin as the greens were way too sandy to even attempt a peek, but I spin my wedges too much (thank God we don't play balata any more) anyway so I'm not concerned- why I tried this out.

Looks like I need to buy 5 more 8i shafts.......

Howard, out of curiosity what would you think would happen if you Tiger wedged a Monaco 8i? Would it need a parachute to stop it- low descent angle/low spin?!?!?!?

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='bullrambler' timestamp='1369273443' post='7089266']
Thanks for posting the chart Howard there is a lot of useful information there. I can there that there are some consistencies and some inconsistenties. The Consistencies are the Brand of shaft, the weight, the initial length / the play length, butt trim and designated flex. There are variables among the CPM numbers between the shafts and they can be seen as minor inconsistencies.

When I think of a custom set of clubs - especially the irons, One has to consider the weight of each head and how it may effect the club after it's built. I figured we were at a place and time in our engineering where everything could be maticulously matched up. I guess we can see a closely matched set, but it seems that it can't be refined down to a completely - evenly match set in all factors.

However I expect that there are a lot of OEM sets on the shelves that may not be as close as we would hope they would be.
[/quote]

Like i wrote above, there is many parameters or tolerances on the shaft, and even more from the club makers hand, and his job when he measure shafts. The numbers i gave you above, was just random shafts, 1 of each i marked for cut down to play as a 35 long Lob wedge in a Scratch 1018.
No shaft was flowed or aligned just clamped and measured to give you a idea of where they are. I would need to do it all over, with 3 shafts of each, floed to both weakest and strongest side to give numbers of better quality, so they are only for the example, so they are strongly influenced on all this parameters who makes an inconstant reading. Butt i will do so, since this post is keep a live and got a lot of readers.

But be aware of one important thing. Bottom of bore, changes all on 2 clubs at the same play length, so if you go from one brand to another, where BBGM is different, dont expect your favorite wedge shaft to feel as you are used to. The difference in butt length on the play ready club matters here, and thats why it also influence on feel when we use the #8 iron trick, and jump 1 flex class up. Butt and tip length will be different from your irons, and that influence on the feel of the shafts, even if they are "the same family". A good example again is Rifle. They can be made to different flight patterns, but equal flex, but out of those 3 options, some can both play and love them all, while others is only comfortable whit one of them. Its the same with shafts for wedges. Tech specs like weight and Butt CPM might be as equal as can be, but if tip, but and step pattern is not equal, they will not feel equal either, and we can see that on Tom Wishons Shaft profile Software, when all 6 zones is involved.

We can only use this specs as guidelines, but real life testing is always needed to get it right.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1369273850' post='7089310']
Hit them again at the range- didn't make it out on the course- again the greens were topped on Monday so no point in trying to judge spin.

The TC S3 54* Miura Black was just awful- absolutely terrible. No distance, never got it to fly, just an absolute dog.

The 52* Monaco Fourteen is solid. Perfect progression from my PW.

The Tiger wedge Miura C 55* & 59* feel great. No loss of distance, easy to load on 1/2-3/4 shots, flight down nicely- a good set up.

I can't really properly comment on flight as I flight all my irons, especially my 1/2 & 3/4 wedges, but I did hit some high for completeness. I'd like to say they did not fly as high as DG spinners. DG spinners did feel softer but coming from Monacos and Steelfibers the Tiger wedge loaded/unloaded nicely and much closer in feel to the irons than the spinners.

I also hit my 57* Vega Raw with a KBS wedge shaft. Very high flight, the 59* went farther though.

I can't comment on spin as the greens were way too sandy to even attempt a peek, but I spin my wedges too much (thank God we don't play balata any more) anyway so I'm not concerned- why I tried this out.

Looks like I need to buy 5 more 8i shafts.......

Howard, out of curiosity what would you think would happen if you Tiger wedged a Monaco 8i? Would it need a parachute to stop it- low descent angle/low spin?!?!?!?
[/quote]

Monaco was made as S - X and TX flex, and Tiger plays X in irons and S i wedges

Monaco S flex is only 122 grams, so it out of the question, no matter shaft
Monaco X flex is made down to 36.50, and since Monaco got a "kinda of Flighted" shaft slope, this 36.50 shaft would be a good option for his PW. His wedges as far as i know is S400 tipped 3/8, and Monaco is "equal to DG and DG Tour X7", just re-use this numbers.

[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]S400 #9 T.S = 372 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]CPM - Tip to first step 8.0 - minus 3/8 = 7 5/8[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]X100 #8 ....... = 376 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]CPM - Tip to first step 6.5 (this would be Monaco X #8)[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]X100 #8 T.S = 378 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]CPM - Tip to first step 6.5 - minus 3/8 = 6 1/8[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]X100 #9 ........ = 382 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]CPM - Tip to first step 6.0 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)](this would be Monaco X #9)[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]X100 #9 T.S...= 384 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]CPM - Tip to first step 6.0 - minus 3/8 = 5 5/8[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Tour X7 #8.... = 385 [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]CPM - Tip to first step 7.5 (This would be Monaco TX #8)[/background][/size][/color]

Using Monaco X #8 irons will make them a bit firmer, but not much, but maybe more than he would like, how would i know ?
I know he is picky about his gear, but also that he is able to play a "strange" shaft like PXi 6.5 in his driving iron. My way is to take each club as fitting object of its own, and then make it so it fits into a set or a hole set up.

Look at the step pattern, butt and tip on the play ready shafts, when moving between flexes. I dont have that specs on Monaco at hand, but i will have them later on, where you can have butt CPM of 3 shafts as 8,9,PW in Monacos to, from all 3 flexes. I still have them all at hand from 2-PW

S flex starts with a butt section 2 inches shorter than X flex, so the play ready club will always be 2 inch difference
Tour X7 is not equal to the other DG shafts, not even un-cut shaft length, they are longer than DGs, so i will make a chart for you with all specs where also butt length, tip length and step pattern is included. I miss a chart like that myself, so i can share it.

[Howard_Jones]

A thing about the way it feels when butt got a different length.

- Look at your own wedges, and count the steps who is visible, and you will most likely find that the grip is over a step or 3.
That influence on both the diameter for your right hand if its into the steps, but also on shaft behavior, since a step is a "flex point", and you right hand will now be over one of them.

Thats one reason to use X when going short in wedges. More butt left for the grip and your lowest hand.
- This is the "small stuff" that makes the difference as a hole, so be aware of where your lowest hand ends up, and what influence that have for grip size at that spot, and your feel of the club.

[Howard_Jones]

OK here is the first shaft model done, with all the numbers you can possibly ask for.
- Pay attention to 1 VERY IMPOTANT thing. DG as R or S flex CANT be judged by using a 5.0 clamp
Butt side when used in wedges become shorter than the clamp, so we are actually changing clamp length, not beam length when we measure R or S flex DG shorter than a standard 8 iron. All others will have a butt section shorter than 5 inch, so the only way to compare them by using Butt CPM is with a 2.5 clamp, and thats why all 5.0 clamp numbers are RED, they cant be used for anything, because all reading would be wrong, and influenced of a different clamping length, instead of beam length.

- If you follow the numbers for a 5 inch clamp, we should expect CPM to drop by average 5.4 for each inch shorter, but they looks like we go stronger. The reason is clamping length. When we start with a 33 long Net shaft lenght as in this chart, and go 1 inch longer, we should see a CPM drop of 5.4 with a 5.0 Clamp but the numbers say 389 down to 386 or only 3 CPM
The reason is that the shortest shaft at 33, only got a "effective clamp" of 3 3/4 cause thats all the butt thats left, while the one who is 1 inch longer, also has 1 inch longer clamp, since butt now is 4 3/4, butt still to short to use a 5.0 clamp
- SO Forget all numbers with RED by using a 5.0 Clamp, i took them in here, to show how wrong it can be judged, NOT for anyone to use them to navigate, they are NOT to be uses at all.

All testing is done. by using NET shaft length at 33.00 in steps of 0.25 up to 34.00
- That mean you can compare standard to over length, or GW to LW by moving right or left.

Example. "My standard" give a LW at 35.00 play ready with grips on, but you play it at 35.25
Then read the list of numbers for 33.25 net shaft, and stay in that row to find your LW shaft.
For the others, move up .25 or 0.5 to get the net shaft length for that other club, and STAY on the lenght when you compare numbers.

WE CANT move right left / up down in shaft length/butt length without re-calc of the number for difference in Swing weight. If the shaft has 0.5 length difference CPM would be influenced from a difference of 3 SW points who equals to 3 CPM. A 0.5 longer shaft is "equal" if CPM drops by 3. If it drops more than 3, we go softer, and if is drops less than 3, we go stronger going longer.

There is 2 CPM values on all rows. They represent the lowest and the highest CPM on a 2 different shafts, floed to weakest and strongest side, so they DONT represent tolerances on the same shaft, but the lowest and highest value you would normally find when Floing this model of DG. They are marked W for Weak and S for Strong. The Weak to the left, the strong to the right.

Since there is only a minor difference, there is not really any asymmetric behavior in that shaft, so it does not matter if we use the strong or the weak side, when matching flex. Use the side who fits your slope for flex, thats what im doing, so a set of irons matched to flex might have some aligned with the weak side at target line, other the strong side. If they both FLO good, and take their place in the slope for flex, you cant make this any better.

Here is S400 as 7, 8. and 9 irons with both CPM and deflection.. The other models will follow, but il post it all in the pinned topic so they are easy to find. The other shafts i will give you all this specs on is X100, Monaco S,X,TX and DG Tour X7. NO OTHERS, DONT EVEN ASK FOR THEM, unless they are a True Temper product. I DONT have anything thats not made by TT, so please no more question to me about specs on KBS or Nippon, i dont have them, so i cant measure them like this.
On this models others will have to reply (if anyone bothers, but it does not seems like that, but i cant help here)

[attachment=1699244:S400 Wedge options.PNG]

TS is short for Tiger Stepped, just look at the difference in Shaft tip by 3/8
- All this numbers is "estimated" going 2 CPM stronger when tipping 3/8 (2.5 clamp)

To use the chart to judge influence on CPM when soft stepping
- S400 #9 iron Weak side as 33" is 369, the #8 iron is 365 = 4 CPM drop when going SS1
- S400 #9 iron Weak side as 33" is 369, the #7 iron is 358 = 9 CPM when going SS2

Since we can use both the weak or the strong side as we like, we could do it this way
- S400 #9 iron Weak side as 33" is 369, the #8 iron strong side is 366 = 3 CPM drop when going SS1
- S400 #9 iron Weak side as 33" is 369, the #7 iron strong side is 361 = 8 CPM when going SS2

EDIT_ chart is changed, ive forgot to give you butt length when using the 8 & 7, so all butt lenght numbers was for the #9 only. Now they are all in place for S400 7,8,9 shafts. Ive also added the number of steps who will be covered by the grip, and the diameter of the smallest step the grip is covering, so you can better judge its influence to grip size on the right/lower hand.

EDiT 2.
- on this photo i show a S400 #8 iron cut to 33 Net shaft length.
- Its only 3 fingers of my upper hand on the very butt end at 33, while at 34 Net, or plus 1 / #9, all 4 fingers is on the butt, but the lower hand will still be on step 2 and 3, with a regular grip. (lowest hand pointing finger is close to G in Golf Pride.

The first step after butt (equal on 9,8,7) is 0.585 (1 layer BU), the 2. step is 0.565 (about 2 layers BU). 3. step is .545 or almost 4 layers of Build up, 4. step is 0.530, or almost 5 layers of BU, each layer is 0.015, The 4. step is only "in play" when gripping down.

[attachment=1699300:S400 #8 iron butt at 33 net.jpg]

EDIT 3
- DG Step Pattern

[attachment=1699356:DG step pattern.PNG]

[MadGolfer76]

Mods, please feel free to edit my original post out and feature what Howard is sharing with us.

[Zanama]

Alright, I've tried to read and understand everything. I play X100s in everything through PW and desperately need to get away from the stock wedge flex shafts I have in my Vokeys. Not sure which way to go to try this though. I've read x7s mentioned but that's a bit extreme. Would an X300 #8 shaft be correct for my wedges? I also read about tipping an S400 but that seems to be more for keeping feel on half shots and such. Can anyone enlighten me?

As I said, I tried to read and understand everything but if I've missed where someone has addressed this already, I apologize.

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Zanama' timestamp='1369585333' post='7110020']
Alright, I've tried to read and understand everything. I play X100s in everything through PW and desperately need to get away from the stock wedge flex shafts I have in my Vokeys. Not sure which way to go to try this though. I've read x7s mentioned but that's a bit extreme. Would an X300 #8 shaft be correct for my wedges? I also read about tipping an S400 but that seems to be more for keeping feel on half shots and such. Can anyone enlighten me?

As I said, I tried to read and understand everything but if I've missed where someone has addressed this already, I apologize.
[/quote]


S200 or Wedge flex is the same shaft, a skinny brother of S300 and the fatboy S400
- If you got a S300 or Wedge flex #9 iron shaft longer than needed for your LW,
tip trim it 3/8 and you are as close as can be to a S400 tipped 3/8 if you want to try that.

Depending on BBGM, if you play them to full swing only or what, you might use X100 all the way, or Tip trim them up to 3/8 if you want them a bit stronger. X200 or X300 could be used to, and they are a good option where BBMG is higher than irons, since that means loosing shaft weight from a shorter butt.

A chart like the S400 chart for both X100 and Tour X7 s coming up later.

[Zanama]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1369587781' post='7110142']
[quote name='Zanama' timestamp='1369585333' post='7110020']
Alright, I've tried to read and understand everything. I play X100s in everything through PW and desperately need to get away from the stock wedge flex shafts I have in my Vokeys. Not sure which way to go to try this though. I've read x7s mentioned but that's a bit extreme. Would an X300 #8 shaft be correct for my wedges? I also read about tipping an S400 but that seems to be more for keeping feel on half shots and such. Can anyone enlighten me?

As I said, I tried to read and understand everything but if I've missed where someone has addressed this already, I apologize.
[/quote]


S200 or Wedge flex is the same shaft, a skinny brother of S300 and the fatboy S400
- If you got a S300 or Wedge flex #9 iron shaft longer than needed for your LW,
tip trim it 3/8 and you are as close as can be to a S400 tipped 3/8 if you want to try that.

Depending on BBGM, if you play them to full swing only or what, you might use X100 all the way, or Tip trim them up to 3/8 if you want them a bit stronger. X200 or X300 could be used to, and they are a good option where BBMG is higher than irons, since that means loosing shaft weight from a shorter butt.

A chart like the S400 chart for both X100 and Tour X7 s coming up later.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info Howard. Really appreciate all the insight you've given on this matter.

I play 690.MBs and have SM4 wedges so I think BBGM is around the same if not larger in the irons. If I want them to play to as close to true X100 flex as possible, what would you think would be the best route?


Thanks again for the help

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Zanama' timestamp='1369595082' post='7110650']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1369587781' post='7110142']
[quote name='Zanama' timestamp='1369585333' post='7110020']
Alright, I've tried to read and understand everything. I play X100s in everything through PW and desperately need to get away from the stock wedge flex shafts I have in my Vokeys. Not sure which way to go to try this though. I've read x7s mentioned but that's a bit extreme. Would an X300 #8 shaft be correct for my wedges? I also read about tipping an S400 but that seems to be more for keeping feel on half shots and such. Can anyone enlighten me?

As I said, I tried to read and understand everything but if I've missed where someone has addressed this already, I apologize.
[/quote]


S200 or Wedge flex is the same shaft, a skinny brother of S300 and the fatboy S400
- If you got a S300 or Wedge flex #9 iron shaft longer than needed for your LW,
tip trim it 3/8 and you are as close as can be to a S400 tipped 3/8 if you want to try that.

Depending on BBGM, if you play them to full swing only or what, you might use X100 all the way, or Tip trim them up to 3/8 if you want them a bit stronger. X200 or X300 could be used to, and they are a good option where BBMG is higher than irons, since that means loosing shaft weight from a shorter butt.

A chart like the S400 chart for both X100 and Tour X7 s coming up later.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info Howard. Really appreciate all the insight you've given on this matter.

I play 690.MBs and have SM4 wedges so I think BBGM is around the same if not larger in the irons. If I want them to play to as close to true X100 flex as possible, what would you think would be the best route?


Thanks again for the help
[/quote]

You cant make Wedge flex to play close to X100 in irons, and Wedges most often got at higher BBGM than irons, making them to play softer no matter what you do. The closest shaft to X100, will always be X100 :-), but weight drops if BBGM is higher, and we go shorter than the #9 iron, combined with a wish for a stronger shaft, then both X200 or X300, even tipped 3/8, or soft stepped is options if thats better.....what ever works is the best guideline there is.

Im making this charts to spread more knowledge about shafts for wedges since they are special when we use DG. #9 is the shortest, but even if we might think that we are using "the same shaft", a different BBGM and shorter play length in wedges, gives us a different shaft, since we loose a lot of butt when going into wedges. X100 got 2 inch more butt to start from, who makes it possible to use a 5 inch clamp when we measure. Its only X100 #7 shaft down at 33 who is to short butt side for the clamp with a butt at at 4 7/8 but we are as close to full Butt to Clamp length as can be, and all others is longer.