My TIGER-stepped WEDGE EXPERIMENT!!

[dcr147]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1332534484' post='4564944']
After reading one of Howard's posts suggesting this (some folks call it Tiger-stepping as TW apparently does something similar), I paired some non-flighted Project X (6.5) eight iron shafts with my 53 and 58 degree Scratch 8620 D/D's. Got out today with these for the first time and just wanted to share some initial opinions. To preface, I played 5.5 non-flighted PX shafts all last year and the year before with some Mizuno irons. I didn't hate the feel, and really liked how they performed for me. Pretty much a mid/high and flat flight with all irons and (for me) average spin - enough to stop a ball, but not enough to suck it back 10 feet.

With that said, I went out on the course with these for the first time, and really liked what I saw. I was initially nervous about them being 6.5's. Howard (who can correct me if I am wrong) mentioned that using 8 iron shafts in a full point stronger flex (by which I mean going from something like 5.5's to 6.5's in terms of PX shafts) might CPM somewhat equally, but have different flight characteristics which would be appropriate for wedge shafts. He suggested that they might launch a bit lower and spin well. From what I saw today, I believe he was spot on.

I played in strong winds today on a slightly damp course. Greens were dry since they were elevated and exposed to wind - fairly receptive due to it being early in the season, but not saturated by any means. I was using a Titleist NXT Tour (I normally use a Z-Star, but wind is wind). Overall, what I noticed is a significantly lower flight and great spin - just as Howard indicated. Very tight dispersion and excellent distance control. I was pin high on every wedge shot, and I am not only talking about short pitches. I hit all kinds of shots today because of the wind. Had a range of distances up to 100 yards. Bear in mind also that this is my second round of the season. I consider myself a good wedge player, but these are better results than I am used to this early in the season. I can't comment on sand play yet - I didn't hit into any, and I don't think the D/D grinds on my Scratch wedges set up well for open-faced shots (which I normally consider a strength of my game), so I don't think it would be a proper evaluation.

Spin was very good. Some of this was the head obviously, along with a certain amount of ball striking, but the "Tiger-stepping" seemed to add a bit more than I would have normally expected. By comparison, I used to game Cally X-Forged Vintage, Vokeys, Mizuno Mp-t11's, and still have a pair of old 588's in the closet. With any of these, a normal 50 yard shot pitch (with a urethane ball) would drop and stop, and maybe back up foot or two. I could dig it out harder and get more, but that is usually what I played for. I usually didn't get 2 or 3 piece balls to back up. The interesting thing here is that, even using an NXT Tour, the ball would come off low, do a one hop and grab up (didn't spin back, though). This is new for me with that kind of a ball. Since there was a lot of wind, I tried knocking down a wedge shot with my 53 degree gap wedge from about 75 yards out. I like hitting little "burning" wedge shots that come off low and grab hard. When I hit that shot today, the ball launched about 15 feet off the ground (much lower than what I normally see) and stayed that way to the green. With that low of a flight (with that ball), I didn't think it would sit on the green, though I struck it well. To my surprise, it two hopped and stopped dead. My father thought I had sculled it until he saw what it did on the green. That was really cool to see. [i](I will take these out again for my next round and use a urethane ball and see what happens. Should be fun!) [/i]

The feel wasn't "warm," but it wasn't harsh either. I was lucky enough to strike a number of shots well, and while the feel wasn't sweet like with Dynamic Golds, it was a lot smoother than normal PX. I really liked the weight of this pairing, too. I like a stronger weight in my wedges (really I prefer it in all my clubs) and this felt good to me. The flight was much more consistent with Dynamic Golds than PX. Really, it was a lower flight than DG's - for me. DG s300's have traditionally been my favorite wedge shafts ever. I didn't get on with the TT Spinners (at all), hated everything about Rifle Spinners, could never figure out what PX shaft to use in my wedges, and was indifferent to the Hi-Revs. Great shafts, all of them, just not for me.

I know there are a lot of WRX'ers who already know about this, so I am only mentioning to those who haven't tried it yet, or who may still not be aware of it. Thanks to Howard for making this suggestion. I will update as I get even more experience with these shafts/wedges. Just to be clear, these are only initial impressions, and I will update as I go.

MG
[/quote]I have done this for years with my G, S,L and X wedges with Dynalite Gold S300's or Hogan Apex 4 shafts and used 8 iron shafts in the wedges.
My reason is feel only, the heavier the better for me.

[Golf Ball Wacker Guy]

[color=#282828]Is there a way of doing this with a px 6.5 instead of a 7.0? I have a spare set laying around and I play 6.0's now. Maybe tip trim to stiffin up?[/color]

[518TitleistX]

Try a PX 6.5 9iron shaft maybe? Its still going to be slightly off as far as flexpoint but should be ok for u

[wbond]

OK, looking for help here. I've searched but couldn't find anything for recoils other than the 125 F5.
I currently play Recoil 95 F3 and looking to replace the dg spinners in my 50, 54 and 58 MP T4's. The 50 is 80% full shots, the 54 is 90% partial swings and the 58 is for bunkers and partial swings. I was thinking the Recoil 110 or 125 in the 50 and the Recoil 125 in the 54 and 58. So my question is what is the correct flex to use for the 8 iron shafts to put into these heads, F4 or F5?

[killerbackswing]

Hi Howard,

I play NS Pro 950 in my irons, stiff flex. Now I want to put S400 in my wedges (51, 56, 61)

I full swing mostly on 51 and 56, the question is, how much tipping needed to play properly?

I'm going to install my existing PW S400 to GW (51), #9 S400 to SW (56), and #8 to LW (61)

How much tipping needed? Please help.

Thanks.

[Howard_Jones]

If you play Nippon 950 S in irons i cant understand why you want a wedge shaft for full swings with a weight difference like this?
You dont need any tip trim at all to make them play strong enough compared Nippon 950 since S400 is more than 1 hole flex stronger, even R300 is stronger, but again, your choice in weight is strange. Why dont you just go for a slightly more heavy Nippon in S flex?

[torrejuan]

Howard Sir,

I ordered a 50* SM5, but since my irons will be fitted with the new KBS Tour-V, I didn't know what shaft I should go to so i told them a S400 (I was trying to avoid an upcharge). I will be using it as a full swing club. I will also be getting the 54* & 58*, but I don't think I will be hitting the 58* full. Thanks for the dedication to this thread.

[Maybee86]

Just so I'm perfectly clear, I have 52', 56', 60' wedges my irons are s300 so get 3 x100 8iron shaft and just but cut them to playing lengths?

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Maybee86' timestamp='1395535209' post='8927845']
Just so I'm perfectly clear, I have 52', 56', 60' wedges my irons are s300 so get 3 x100 8iron shaft and just but cut them to playing lengths?
[/quote]

Depending on what you want, thats one way of doing it.
This set up works good for both full swings and partials, so its quite "universal" and no obvious down side, but for a LOB for partials only it might feel stiffer than wanted, but X100 got good feel compared to S300 so it might be quite OK for you.
As a softer option for you lob if its ONLY for partials, go S400 #8 iron

[Maybee86]

Ok thanks for you reply

[Blackthunder 85]

This sounds like something I need to try. I always seem to struggle getting enough spin on my wedge shots. Thanks for the tip!

[tbowers2]

I've read through this topic and I still am not sure about the partial shots versus full shots solution for shafts in my wedges. Sorry if I missed it somewhere.
What I'd like to know is, if I want to keep the same/similar flex in my 50, 54 and 58 wedges as my irons (4-PW [u][b]KBS Tour Stiff flex[/b][/u]), FOR FULL AND PARTIAL SHOTS, without the wedges going super high, what should I use?
Would I want to use [b][u]KBS Tour X flex 8 Iron shafts[/u][/b] in all 3 wedges?

[Saijin]

I grabbed an S+ Ctaper 8i, tipped it 3/4 off the tip to turn it to X-flex, then cut the butt to length of a wedge shaft. Installed it on a 52* gap wedge.
Couldn't find an X-flex, thus I tipped it first.

What do you think?

I normally play a PXi 6.0 on my irons

[torrejuan]

My bad Howard. You have no knowledge of KBS. Disregard my question.

[CircleC29]

I have been wanting to read this thread for awhile now and finally got the time to.....on Saturday night...(sigh) I know....I'm cool [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]Thank you Howard for everything you contribute to WRX. Thanks MG and everyone else who contributed to this thread! Much appreciated. [/size]

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Saijin' timestamp='1395895257' post='8959971']
I grabbed an S+ Ctaper 8i, tipped it 3/4 off the tip to turn it to X-flex, then cut the butt to length of a wedge shaft. Installed it on a 52* gap wedge.
Couldn't find an X-flex, thus I tipped it first.

What do you think?

I normally play a PXi 6.0 on my irons
[/quote]

Thats way to strong if those PXi 6.0 fits you.
As a compare, KBS Tour R flex, plays in the middle of PXi 5.5 and PXi 6.0, and your iron shafts started from 112 grams, so if that turns out all wrong witch i think it will for GW, compared to your PW, look at KBS Tour S flex next time (120 grams), and use the #8 iron strait in.

Look at this numbers from Tom Wishon
Never mind BUTT & 36. Its the same spot, FULL length, only with different tip weights, but we cut most of that part of,especially on wedges, so compare them as if 31" was BUTT frequency, and at this spot 7 CPM is equal to 10 CPM or 1 flex at BUTT (full length)

As you can see, KBS Tour S will fit in as a stronger option to PXi 6.0, but you also have the option to use PXi 6.5 #9 for GW, who will be 117 grams, and a tad softer than KBS Tour (at the same shaft #
.)

[attachment=2147741:PXi to KBS Tour.PNG]

[Saijin]

Thank you for your advice, Howard.

1. I'm going to put the pxi 6.5 9i straight into the gw and just cut the butt to length.
Should I do the same for SW and lob wedge too?

2. I use c-taper s-flex on my other irons and it felt softer than my pxi6.0?

3. How can I tell the difference using the spinner vs tiger stepped shafts?

[lowfi]

Hi Howard,

First off, thank you so much for all of your information sharing, graphs and insight. What a help to the GolfWRX community and the golf community as a whole. It's truly impressive.

I am new to club building but would love to give the "8i trick" a shot in my new wedges. I dont like the flight in my current wedge shaft setup and I hate the feel of the s300's. The ball flight is too high and the clubs feel too light.

This is what I am thinking about doing.

I am currently playing the KBS C Taper Stiffs in my Mizuno MP 33's and I will be playing that shaft through PW(9i shaft). My GW and SW will be used for full shots, LW is max 3/4 swing. After comparing the "new and improved shaft chart", the DG shaft most closely related to the KBS CTs is the DGS400 at 6.1FCM's, the CTs is 6.2FCM's. I am going to keep the same shaft that will be installed in the SW in the LW as well. For the wedge shaft fitting, can we assume that I play the DGS400 line?

The pitching wedge will be the KBS CTs 9i shaft.
The GW will bump up to the DG X200 8i shaft.
The SW/LW will be ????

I'm still unsure of how to bump up to the next two shafts for SW/LW. I'm not sure what the 10 cpm jump would be TTDG line wise.

Would it be beneficial to stay in the KBS line by using the CTx flex shafts for a consistency in feel? I know that you do not know about KBS shafts but when looking at the "New shaft chart" the next highest flex to move from the x200 would be the CTx. I am OK switching from KBS to TTDG in the wedges as I have always played TTDG in my wedge sets.

I apologize if this is all wrong, I am new to this. Thanks for your help and patience! I'll give you feedback on flight and feel after installation.

Cheers,

Sean

[lowfi]

FORE!

[lowfi]

Hi Howard,

Just bumping so you could see this post.

Thank you,

Sean

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='lowfi' timestamp='1396211022' post='8981745']
Hi Howard,

First off, thank you so much for all of your information sharing, graphs and insight. What a help to the GolfWRX community and the golf community as a whole. It's truly impressive.

I am new to club building but would love to give the "8i trick" a shot in my new wedges. I dont like the flight in my current wedge shaft setup and I hate the feel of the s300's. The ball flight is too high and the clubs feel too light.

This is what I am thinking about doing.

I am currently playing the KBS C Taper Stiffs in my Mizuno MP 33's and I will be playing that shaft through PW(9i shaft). My GW and SW will be used for full shots, LW is max 3/4 swing. After comparing the "new and improved shaft chart", the DG shaft most closely related to the KBS CTs is the DGS400 at 6.1FCM's, the CTs is 6.2FCM's. I am going to keep the same shaft that will be installed in the SW in the LW as well. For the wedge shaft fitting, can we assume that I play the DGS400 line?

The pitching wedge will be the KBS CTs 9i shaft.
The GW will bump up to the DG X200 8i shaft.
The SW/LW will be ????

I'm still unsure of how to bump up to the next two shafts for SW/LW. I'm not sure what the 10 cpm jump would be TTDG line wise.

Would it be beneficial to stay in the KBS line by using the CTx flex shafts for a consistency in feel? I know that you do not know about KBS shafts but when looking at the "New shaft chart" the next highest flex to move from the x200 would be the CTx. I am OK switching from KBS to TTDG in the wedges as I have always played TTDG in my wedge sets.

I apologize if this is all wrong, I am new to this. Thanks for your help and patience! I'll give you feedback on flight and feel after installation.

Cheers,

Sean
[/quote]

If you dont like the feel of DG, stay KBS if thats your preference
Even if it looks like we can change a lot by shafts in wedges, we cant, since a wedge shaft is short and stiff no matter what, so it does not bend much, but too soft or too strong is no good.

Whats most important is Weight and Feel, and the general rule by using the same shaft as in irons for wedges played to full swing is still valid and good and works for most of us.

Its when we want to keep flex progression instead of going softer like normal that all those other options comes up.
If PW is on the edge of going to high, we dont want to go even higher in GW but try to keep it "below the moon", and then Tiger stepping is a option where we can make the GW slightly stiffer by a tip trim of 3/8 to get the shaft TT dont make.

The #8 iron spinner trick is another option, but then we go up one hole flex (10 cpm), and use the #8 iron instead of the #9 iron
This would give us a shaft close in flex and with flex progression from PW, but with a shorter tip section to make sure we keep it low.

Never mind butt CPM when we compare DIFFERENT shaft models, its not a good way to do its, since the hole shaft influence on what feel it gives, not only butt CPM, so take a look at weight and flex options from KBS, and you get the feel you are familiar with if you dont like DG.

If your lob is for partials only, go softer and dont use a stronger shaft than your PW then

[lowfi]

Thanks for the great reply. All if that makes sense.

So here is my plan using KBS, let me know if this sounds right...

4-pw: c taper stiff
GW: 8i c taper x flex
SW: 9i c taper x flex
LW: 9i c taper stiff

All trimmed to the appropriate lengths.

Is this the right logic?

Thanks again!

[Howard_Jones]

If you play your SW to full swing, and hardly no partial shots, then yes, but if its used for both, the #8 iron will do, and then you improve feel for those partials with your SW. Out on the tour its quite normal to play X100 in irons and S400 in lob, so they drop about 8 CPM as "raw shafts" but it falls even further since we cut of more butt from a wedge than our PW, so we talk 1 hole flex down, but a #9 iron from your irons is a "safe choice", but for partials only you might want to go softer.
Check if there is any difference in BBGM form irons to wedges. It might be up to 0.5 higher in your wedges, and that will make them to play softer. (more butt trim at the same play length makes them softer)

[Saijin]

Hi Howard,

I play full shots with all my clubs including my lob wedge. So for a PXi 6.0 player,

you think PXi 6.5 9i straight into all my GW, SW and LW is good?

[Howard_Jones]

[quote name='Saijin' timestamp='1396499330' post='9008875']
Hi Howard,

I play full shots with all my clubs including my lob wedge. So for a PXi 6.0 player,

you think PXi 6.5 9i straight into all my GW, SW and LW is good?
[/quote]

YES, 6.5 is only those few extra CPM we want so flex dont turn to soft into wedges played to full swings, and weight match will be good too, so they are a good choice in your case.

[Saijin]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1396504975' post='9009121']
[quote name='Saijin' timestamp='1396499330' post='9008875']
Hi Howard,

I play full shots with all my clubs including my lob wedge. So for a PXi 6.0 player,

you think PXi 6.5 9i straight into all my GW, SW and LW is good?
[/quote]

YES, 6.5 is only those few extra CPM we want so flex dont turn to soft into wedges played to full swings, and weight match will be good too, so they are a good choice in your case.
[/quote]

Thank you very much for your time.

So doing tiger stepped shafts actually promote : Better dispersion, better control, more spin than the spinner shaft and lower flight?

[Howard_Jones]

The way i use the term Tiger stepping, its TIP TRIMMING a taper tip shaft to make it close to/equal to a hard stepped shaft without the need to move shaft, or to make a shaft stronger than you can buy.

Example
The player wants a set of S300 hard stepped once, but hard stepping DG means the same shaft from #8 and up so we have problems in the short end. Instead of hard stepping, all shafts can be tip trimmed 3/8 and then installed as they normally should, and then we got a flex close to hard stepping and can keep DG as they normally is, stronger up to #9.

The other example is the one who plays them strait in as normal, but wants flex progression to continue beyond the #9 iron
Since he has NOT tip trimmed any shafts yet, he can tip trim both PW and GW to make them stronger.
Tiger stepping is simply to make a shaft to play stronger or to make that shaft we cant buy (PW,GW)

Your line of arguments is all "relative" to where we came from, but it does NOT make more spin than a "Spinner shaft"

I dont have the time to explain this to each and every one who ask in this same tread, so i wich you was better readers than you are, but here it goes one more time.

Loft at impact is what gives launch and spin, and if 1 shaft delivers more loft to the club head than the other, launch and spin will be higher. However, this is only valid up to loft 56, then we dont get more spin, only launch, while spin goes down. The reason is that the grooves we play cant keep the ball on the face and compress it fully, so it starts to roll up.

A "Spinner shaft" like True Temper spinner, or a player who plays S300 and chooses a X100#8 iron as wedge shaft, will NOT se improved spin for GW, since those shafts is the choice when we want to PREVENT added dynamic loft on a 56 or higher.
If you do that for GW, loft at impact will be lower, and spin goes down, so if its LOWER flight you want from your GW, then the #8 iron trick will do for GW, and when we use the same shaft for LW, it has the potential to ADD spin since the shaft keeps loft as low as possible on those high lofted 56 and higher.

Tiger stepping will like regular hard stepping give a shorter tip section, and a lower flight, so they will reduce dynamic loft, and for clubs lower than 56 that means less launch and spin, but for clubs higher than 56, it adds spin, and keep launch lower.

Now the classic question. What has the lowest launch of a S300 #9 Tiger stepped/Tip trimmed 3/8 and a X-100 #8 iron shaft? The answer is in the chart for tip length = shortest tip is lowest = X100 #8

[lowfi]

Beautiful stuff Howard.

Here's what I ordered:

PW: kbs c taper s 9i
GW: c taper x 8i
SW: c taper x 8i
LW: c taper s 8i to keep it on the softer side for mid swing shots.

Thanks for all of the help. If the LW needs to go stiffer ill just trim 3/8 from the tip.

Cheers!

[Saijin]

Howard...

after waiting for those PXi to come... 1 month later... they sent me a 6.0 instead of a 6.5 .
would the 6.o still do the trick though?

[pkuhr9]

Hey Howard or anyone else,

I just ordered some new wedges, and I'm toying with the idea of doing the tiger stepping or 8-iron butt trim.

I play the KBS C-taper S+ soft stepped once in my irons 4-PW, and wanted to put the KBS tour black Ni TT shafts in the wedges 50* 54* 58*.

I'm debating on ordering 3 8-iron shafts in X flex 130g,

is this the right process? what are your thoughts on 8-iron stepping vs wedge shaft for the 50*

would I have to do any tip trimming?

also note I take full swings with all my wedges.

any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
Paul