About this whole steep vs flat shoulder turn business

[tylerdurden]

Warning: I promise this is actually about Hogan, just contrasting against Tiger for better understanding of release patterns:

 

Here's a pretty solid (IMO) video from Whittaker about Tiger's swing:

 

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVtaP0i86QU&feature=plcp[/media]

 

I didn't think Dan has the best camera angles to analyze what he was saying here (and I was a bit suspicious), so I did my own analysis as follows. Check out this video of Tiger hitting driver from target view. Camera moeves, but compare his left shoulder elevation relative to the white hat just to the right of his left shoulder at setup. Notice that in p6 (delivery, right??), his left shoulder is already much more elevated then it was at setup, and it gets increasingly higher through impact.

 

OK...

 

Now check out this Hogan video - cut specifically to 1:10 and check out the left shoulder relative to hit brims in background. Notice it doesn't elevate higher than where it was at address until during/after impact:

 

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g27cP6p9iF8&feature=plcp[/media]

 

So here's the thing. My concern here is holding leverage (arms down/in and club out is my definition). And obviously this is a function of A LOT of stuff. But, that said, I think it's key the left side doesn't get too elevated/higher than it was at address pre-impact, otherwise I think you will lose leverage (atleast I will) and struggle with the face being too open.

 

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe fat's talked about let side not getting to elevated and it causing problems if it does.

 

Also, I guess the title of this is misleading, because this really doesn;t have much to do with flat vs steep shoulder turn. But I think it's at least worth pointing out that steep shoulder turn combined with too much left side elevation early in the DS can cause issues, as it appears to with Tiger IMO (he can't hold driver leverage by my definition).

 

Anyway, I need to catch a flight to disney world (literally) and I haven't packed yet.

 

I shall return in 7 days.

 

I will be HIGHLY disappointed if there's a bunch of belly aching about hurt feelings, emotions, and other things that should be left to discussion by females (NOT GROWN MEN). So stay on topic and don't act like you need a cranberry juice. Seriously.

[tylerdurden]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM6AeW8ok6E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM6AeW8ok6E[/url]

[station2station]

The shoulder plane has a lot to do with the height of the man and the length of his clubs (preferred).

Hogan was about 5-9" and when he swings a wood his shoulders are naturally a bit more horizontal than 6-1" Tiger and his 8 iron. ( i saw the driver swing too).

I subscribe to more shoulder tilt personally.

[farmer]

Shouldn't the shoulder tilt be a result of posture at address, and not some forced action?

[drewspin]

By the time Hogan starts the downswing, all his head drop has occurred. The head drop happens after his left knee breaks in going back, as he moves the base of his spine slightly toward his left heel.

Tiger, on the other hand, drops his head the most at the start of his downswing and it continues to drop as he starts down. When you drop your head at the start of the downswing and keep dropping, you are going to have to make some compensating moves, including moves with the left shoulder shooting up.

[MizunoJoe]

Much more important than the shoulder line and it's orientation is the position of the right shoulder at the top and it's path to impact and past to the both arms straight position. In the DTL vid from Chris in the open shoulder thread, Hogan's right shoulder drives directly down toward the ball. Any steeper, and he would run into himself. If his shaft were on this shoulder plane, it would be ideal and is called the Turned Shoulder Plane in TGM. But his shaft is flatter and under the path of the right shoulder, which makes the swing more complicated.

[svsvincenzo]

IMO, Tiger is not using his hips at least as much as Hogan. So Tiger uses his shoulders more, so he fires the shoulders and arms earlier than Hogan. Hogan really uses his hips. It's very obvious in the clips. So Hogan's hips fires more, fires first in DS, fires earlier, so the shoulders fire late as they're just followers. Reason also why Tiger's L arm doesn't get as attached to the chest while Hogan's attaches much more.

I think the focus on this L shoulder getting farther at impact is a bit overrated Tyler. I think the focus should be to have a consistent low point, consistent baseline/path DIRECTION, as STRAIGHT as possible baseline/path, and as FLAT/SHALLOW as possible baseline/path. If you attain these, it actually doesn't matter anymore whether your L shoulder is nearer or farther at impact compared to where it is at address. Your shoulders and arms and club will now be just one big wheel. When you rotate that wheel, it doesn't matter where the axle/spokes of the wheel are located. The wheel's tire will hit the ball no matter what as long as you don't move the center of the wheel. Low point is determined by combo of upper and lower centers. Baseline direction is determined by direction of shoulder turn. Baseline curve is determined by combo of shoulder turn inclination/steepness/flatness and L wrist hinge/turn plane. Baseline flatness/shallowness is determined by the L wrist hinge/turn plane also.

The bigger or much more difficult things are how to do these things. IMO only the above are the only things to aspire for and hence what matters in a swing.

One thing that I find that will achieve consistent low point height (granting your not lowering or lifting your centers) is to have fully unc0cked L wrist already at setup bec at impact it's gonna fully unc0ck as well. So you wouldn't have to estimate/time the differential at impact. You can see Hogan doing these before he forward presses and/or takes it away.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344122930' post='5407470']
Much more important than the shoulder line and it's orientation is the position of the right shoulder at the top and it's path to impact and past to the both arms straight position. In the DTL vid from Chris in the open shoulder thread, Hogan's right shoulder drives directly down toward the ball. Any steeper, and he would run into himself. If his shaft were on this shoulder plane, it would be ideal and is called the Turned Shoulder Plane in TGM. But his shaft is flatter and under the path of the right shoulder, which makes the swing more complicated.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree the shaft being flatter and under the path is more complicated. But don't you think a flatter shaft is better? As I've been saying, IMO this makes the baseline or AoA flatter/shallower. Horizontally stretches the low point. And IMO works very well with the R shoulder driving and going DOWN under TGM swinging protocol. Am I wrong?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344137562' post='5408386']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344122930' post='5407470']
Much more important than the shoulder line and it's orientation is the position of the right shoulder at the top and it's path to impact and past to the both arms straight position. In the DTL vid from Chris in the open shoulder thread, Hogan's right shoulder drives directly down toward the ball. Any steeper, and he would run into himself. If his shaft were on this shoulder plane, it would be ideal and is called the Turned Shoulder Plane in TGM. But his shaft is flatter and under the path of the right shoulder, which makes the swing more complicated.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree the shaft being flatter and under the path is more complicated. But don't you think a flatter shaft is better? As I've been saying, IMO this makes the baseline or AoA flatter/shallower. Horizontally stretches the low point. And IMO works very well with the R shoulder driving and going DOWN under TGM swinging protocol. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

Both can work well, and the choice should be made in light of the golfer's tendencies, not which might be technically superior. I personally prefer the flatter plane of Hogan, but with the inactive left shoulder and arm of TGM - from the top, drive the right shoulder through the ball and the left shoulder just responds accordingly. In TGM, the Swing is a right side action.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344179920' post='5409568']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344137562' post='5408386']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344122930' post='5407470']
Much more important than the shoulder line and it's orientation is the position of the right shoulder at the top and it's path to impact and past to the both arms straight position. In the DTL vid from Chris in the open shoulder thread, Hogan's right shoulder drives directly down toward the ball. Any steeper, and he would run into himself. If his shaft were on this shoulder plane, it would be ideal and is called the Turned Shoulder Plane in TGM. But his shaft is flatter and under the path of the right shoulder, which makes the swing more complicated.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree the shaft being flatter and under the path is more complicated. But don't you think a flatter shaft is better? As I've been saying, IMO this makes the baseline or AoA flatter/shallower. Horizontally stretches the low point. And IMO works very well with the R shoulder driving and going DOWN under TGM swinging protocol. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

Both can work well, and the choice should be made in light of the golfer's tendencies, not which might be technically superior. I personally prefer the flatter plane of Hogan, but with the inactive left shoulder and arm of TGM - from the top, drive the right shoulder through the ball and the left shoulder just responds accordingly. In TGM, the Swing is a right side action.
[/quote]

Clear, understood. What do you think is/are the advantage/s of driving that R shoulder down through the ball with an inert/inactive L arm vis-a-vis the L shoulder turning and pulling up and L arm active pulling and rotating/supinating/externally rotating with the R side just being tagged along? I have tried both for the longest time and I cannot seem to see any advantage on the former (TGM swinging with R shoulder driving), except probably greater distance for lesser turning effort.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344181123' post='5409620']

Clear, understood. What do you think is/are the advantage/s of driving that R shoulder down through the ball with an inert/inactive L arm vis-a-vis the L shoulder turning and pulling up and L arm active pulling and rotating/supinating/externally rotating with the R side just being tagged along? I have tried both for the longest time and I cannot seem to see any advantage on the former (TGM swinging with R shoulder driving), except probably greater distance for lesser turning effort.
[/quote]

Or you can drive the right and pull with the left, which I think Hogan does. Right only is simpler and gives max power, like a fighter throwing a straight right with his right shoulder girdle.

[svsvincenzo]

I like the drive right AND pull with left. Do you mean drive right in transition, then AFTERWARDS pull with L side? Or are you saying AT THE SAME TIME?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344211021' post='5412094']
I like the drive right AND pull with left. Do you mean drive right in transition, then AFTERWARDS pull with L side? Or are you saying AT THE SAME TIME?
[/quote]

As soon as the right drives down and out, the left pulls up and back - like spinning a flywheel symmetrically at two points diametrically opposed, instead of at only one point.

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344274396' post='5417010']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344211021' post='5412094']
I like the drive right AND pull with left. Do you mean drive right in transition, then AFTERWARDS pull with L side? Or are you saying AT THE SAME TIME?
[/quote]

As soon as the right drives down and out, the left pulls up and back - like spinning a flywheel symmetrically at two points diametrically opposed, instead of at only one point.
[/quote]

How does one achieve this? setup, intentions, pressures, etc.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1344276148' post='5417246']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344274396' post='5417010']

As soon as the right drives down and out, the left pulls up and back - like spinning a flywheel symmetrically at two points diametrically opposed, instead of at only one point.
[/quote]

How does one achieve this? setup, intentions, pressures, etc.
[/quote]

Effort - torque up on the BS, on the DS, turn the hips, and spin the shoulders using the lats.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344274396' post='5417010']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344211021' post='5412094']
I like the drive right AND pull with left. Do you mean drive right in transition, then AFTERWARDS pull with L side? Or are you saying AT THE SAME TIME?
[/quote]

As soon as the right drives down and out, the left pulls up and back - like spinning a flywheel symmetrically at two points diametrically opposed, instead of at only one point.
[/quote]

Thanks MJ!

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344289592' post='5418648']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1344276148' post='5417246']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1344274396' post='5417010']
As soon as the right drives down and out, the left pulls up and back - like spinning a flywheel symmetrically at two points diametrically opposed, instead of at only one point.
[/quote]

How does one achieve this? setup, intentions, pressures, etc.
[/quote]

Effort - torque up on the BS, on the DS, turn the hips, and spin the shoulders using the lats.
[/quote]

hmmm but I wonder if its a vapor trail or result of other swing components well executed which result in an apparent push pull of the right and left shoulder or can this move can be worked on in isolation by intentionally engaging lats. Seems very odd to intentionally push and pull at the same time by intentionally engaging lats.

For example is it the result of 1) not running out of right arm through impact causing the right shoulder to keep pushing, and 2) if left upper arm is firmly connected to upper left chest/arm pit causing left arm and shoulder to be pulled???

[bhughesgolf]

TylerD
I wanted to post these pics to show you what I see the difference between steep shoulders & level turning shoulders.
It is relative to the spine...not to the ground.
The top row of players have a more level rotation post impact as the criss/cross match up quite evenly on either side.
The lower row of players have a steeper turning shoulder level where the lower right cross is bunched and the left cross is spread out.. so the criss cross don't match up.

[attachment=1293542:flatlevelsteepup.JPG]

You can get a decent view of it also in this sequence...the shoulders turn level in relationship to the spine...the left shoulder can look higher and right shoulder lower in relation to the ground but they are turning level in relation to the spine angle

[attachment=1293544:hogantossswing.JPG]

[svsvincenzo]

Hate to dig this up again Brad, but my question is, what would a level shoulder turn do for (advantages) in a swing? Reason I asked is I don't see any. Looking forward to a more lively but respectful discussion. Its nice to always disagree while agreeing to disagree.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1344305905' post='5420404']
TylerD
I wanted to post these pics to show you what I see the difference between steep shoulders & level turning shoulders.
It is relative to the spine...not to the ground.
The top row of players have a more level rotation post impact as the criss/cross match up quite evenly on either side.
The lower row of players have a steeper turning shoulder level where the lower right cross is bunched and the left cross is spread out.. so the criss cross don't match up.

[attachment=1293542:flatlevelsteepup.JPG]

You can get a decent view of it also in this sequence...the shoulders turn level in relationship to the spine...the left shoulder can look higher and right shoulder lower in relation to the ground but they are turning level in relation to the spine angle

[attachment=1293544:hogantossswing.JPG]
[/quote]

Your top most pic of Hogan is useless because, first, the camera is at his south-east, hence a vertical will look more level. Second, we don't know if he already raised his head and spine angle. It has to be a sequence of pics showing the R shoulder before its lowest point, at its lowest point and after its lowest point.

Also, again, look at the last Hogan sequence you posted, look at the 3rd pic (described as "2"). Hogan's R shoulder is already very down/vertical, and it has yet to reach its lowest. The 4th/last pic, the R shoulder has already gone past the lowest and is on its way out.

IMO a more precise defninition/description would be his shoulders are turning level, not to his general spine angle, but to the angle of his thoracic and cervical tilt, which are way bent over than his overall spine tilt (lumbar spine). Note that his neck tilt (cervical spine) is way bent over all throughout the swing including impact and post-impact until R arm parallel.

[svsvincenzo]

This is 1953, many considers to be his best. Also when he got the Grand Slam. I don't see his shoulders turning on his general spine angle. Its turning on his cervical spine tilt/angle. If you criss-cross the lines here, it won't match either like in your lower set of pics.

[attachment=1293656:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS1.jpg]
[attachment=1293658:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS2.jpg]
[attachment=1293660:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS3.jpg]
[attachment=1293662:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS4.jpg]

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344310023' post='5420890']
This is 1953, many considers to be his best. Also when he got the Grand Slam. I don't see his shoulders turning on his general spine angle. Its turning on his cervical spine tilt/angle. [b]If you criss-cross the lines here, it won't match either like in your lower set of pics[/b].

[attachment=1293656:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS1.jpg]
[attachment=1293658:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS2.jpg]
[attachment=1293660:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS3.jpg]
[attachment=1293662:gifhoganmexicodrawfadelowRS4.jpg]
[/quote]

They're n[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1344305905' post='5420404']
TylerD
I wanted to post these pics to show you what I see the difference between steep shoulders & level turning shoulders.
It is relative to the spine...not to the ground.
The top row of players have a more level rotation post impact as the criss/cross match up quite evenly on either side.
The lower row of players have a steeper turning shoulder level where the lower right cross is bunched and the left cross is spread out.. so the criss cross don't match up.

[attachment=1293542:flatlevelsteepup.JPG]

You can get a decent view of it also in this sequence...[size=5][b]the shoulders turn level in relationship to the spine[/b][/size]...the left shoulder can look higher and right shoulder lower in relation to the ground but they are turning level in relation to the spine angle

[attachment=1293544:hogantossswing.JPG]
[/quote][quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1344305905' post='5420404']
TylerD
I wanted to post these pics to show you what I see the difference between steep shoulders & level turning shoulders.
It is relative to the spine...not to the ground.
The top row of players have a more level rotation post impact as the criss/cross match up quite evenly on either side.
The lower row of players have a steeper turning shoulder level where the lower right cross is bunched and the left cross is spread out.. so the criss cross don't match up.

[attachment=1293542:flatlevelsteepup.JPG]

You can get a decent view of it also in this sequence...the shoulders turn level in relationship to the spine...the left shoulder can look higher and right shoulder lower in relation to the ground but they are turning level in relation to the spine angle

[attachment=1293544:hogantossswing.JPG]
[/quote]

Wouldn't "shoulders in relation to the hips" be a more apt description? The spine bends so the shoulder's relationship to the upper spine and base of the spine will vary............

[svsvincenzo]

Hogan, in my pics above, doesn't turn his shoulders level to his hips. So IMO that is not a good description either.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344313401' post='5421166']
Hogan, in my pics above, doesn't turn his shoulders [size=5][b]level[/b][/size] to his hips. So IMO that is not a good description either.
[/quote]

Its a relative term........

........... that's why I feel the whole "he didn't turn level" argument is a non-starter.

Hogan and other laid off pivot-driven players had MORE LEVEL, flatter, shoulders relative to the hip line than most modern players ........... but even for them there always has to be a bit of extra relative shoulder tilt to get down to the ball, particularly as the left side expands through impact.

Why are they more level? an arm/body/spine connection is maintained............ hard to get massively disjointed if the right elbow is tucked and at impact the hands come back to their original set-up position........... unlike some modern guys who lose their spine angle and the arms come in much straighter and above original set-up position............ do a straight arm pendulum set up like Moe Norman and they might avoid this.

[nicebutdim]

Lee Westwood is an interesting case of someone who looks like he has some classic ballstriking intentions but goes completely awry

Notice the tucked right elbow at impact........... however he's coming in super steep pointing the butt of the club at the ball......... notice also how he enters impact with hands above set up position............ spine angle is lost........... and his shoulder line becomes super duper steep...... and strange hip action it appears.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX9wFSw0ssA[/media]

lets look at that pivot action from side on.........
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CFALtG9Ld4[/media]

Turns into very braced right leg........ backshifts towards target ala Hogan/Trevino......... then ouch!......... keeps shifting, shifting, shifting........... pops the left hip up.......... no real rotation so big stall.......... snaps the left knee........ final piece is he has to strongly turn the right shoulder under to power the through the swing ......... basically spinning on top of the straight left leg in the follow through.

Aggressive hip rotation is missing big time.

[JBOMB808]

This "steep vs level" stuff I believe is related to how Hogan said on how to start the downswing. "Starts down below with your knees and your hips." That's the first move... ...there..."

If you swing(weight-rotate) the hips too far ahead of the shoulders, you "run out of hips" so to speak and they stall. Steep and flip ala Fowler. If you go more low and level with ONE cohesive motion(level) ala Dufner. Leaves you with only ONE miss. -"Right" for right handers. If you start down amateur style with BOTH hips and shoulders - boom over the top. The starting motion of the hips AND the delayed shoulder cohesive movement 'slots' the clubhead and shallows the club like a landing plane. Start with the hips(delay the shoulder - steep), then the one cohesive motion controls the clubhead angle and direction(- level circular arc). The more aggressive the hip rotation, the harder one's shoulders would have to catch up or else, "block".

Level-steep-level

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1344323595' post='5421552']
This "steep vs level" stuff I believe is related to how Hogan said on how to start the downswing. "Starts down below with your knees and your hips." That's the first move... ...there..."

If you swing(weight-rotate) the hips too far ahead of the shoulders, you "run out of hips" so to speak and they stall. Steep and flip ala Fowler. If you go more low and level with ONE cohesive motion(level) ala Dufner. Leaves you with only ONE miss. -"Right" for right handers. If you start down amateur style with BOTH hips and shoulders - boom over the top. The starting motion of the hips AND the delayed shoulder cohesive movement 'slots' the clubhead and shallows the club like a landing plane. Start with the hips(delay the shoulder - steep), then the one cohesive motion controls the clubhead angle and direction(- level circular arc). [b]The more aggressive the hip rotation, the harder one's shoulders would have to catch up or else, "block"[/b].

Level-steep-level
[/quote]

Nice stuff.

What I've bolded is probably the reason why Hogan only thinks about the hit after the initial hip twist............ hands have dropped perfectly into position at hip high............ he wanted to get back in front and moving hips and shoulders cohesively through the ball........ he's not trying to leave the hands behind, he's trying to get them into positon......... too much hip rotation and delay of the hands would get you stuck, so its either block or save with the hands.......... I'm starting to realize how on top of the ball he must have felt despite his flat arc.

we're talking split second stuff here....... quick isolated hip shift ........ then hit...... de-dem

[svsvincenzo]

What's the advantage of turning the shoulders more flat or level or parallel to the ground vs more perp or vertical?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344329942' post='5421706']
What's the advantage of turning the shoulders more flat or level or parallel to the ground vs more perp or vertical?
[/quote]

If there is some biomechanical advantage of doing one over the other then I don't know............

But I don't look at it that way............ I view it as cause and effect........... if you do certain things in you swing you'll be more connected and have leveler shoulders and have a stabler clubface through impact............. If you do other things you might hump the goat and have steep shoulders and usually there's hand flipping involved.........

And if one wants some sort of criteria it could be this........... if you do the things that Hogan/Trevino/Knudson did you'll hit 70-90% of fairways............. If you do the things that Fowler/Els/MIckelson do you'll hit 40-60% of fairways.............

[svsvincenzo]

All the the things you said can be attained with steeper shoulders.

Don't see why steep shoulders HAS TO result to humping the goat. Though I completely understand why one will hump the goat if one will turn shoulders steep.

As I've said, don't see any advantage as far as hitting the ball more powerfully and consistently if you turn the shoulders more level relative to the ground.

I can do both and I don't see any reason to adopt a more level shoulder turn.

If its a cause and effect thing such as you hump the goat when you turn shoulders steep, the shoulder steep turn ain't the problem. You simply just didn't make the necessary adjustments needed for a more inclined plane.