About this whole steep vs flat shoulder turn business

[dpb5031]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347032256' post='5602017']
HG, steep shoulders and hands toward the target might be good for you, but they are just opposite what Hogan did. When searching his real secret, thats the first thing to realize. He fired his hands as hard left as possible by his pivot and the club had to be adjusted to that move. Just what Bradley is showing us.
[/quote]

Agreed...hands toward the target is not what Hogan did, nor is it what Slicefixer teaches.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1347032232' post='5602015']
The way I understand Geoff's teachings (and I am a student) is that that a DTL/pivot stalling/rollover release player can derive some benefit from [b][i]feeling [/i][/b]as if they are swinging more low/left. The "thought" or "feel" of low/left helps keep the butt end of the club following the core pivot as it rotates around and to the left for a right handed player. The hands stay synched-up to the rotating core, close to and in front of the belt buckle through impact.

You can have relatively steep shoulders yet still benefit from the feeling of low/left through impact.
[/quote]

@dpb

I am not saying a disconnected and flinging away of arms. I am saying arms tight to the core/pivot/armpits, but the shoulders GETS moved more vertically rather than level by Hogan's UNIQUE pivot. That pivot is the controller. So no pivot stalling/rollover release. Yeah, arms being in sync with the core pivot.

I just happen to respectfully disagree with Brad and Geoff on the low and left INTENT of the pivot. There's a reason why Hogan had that kind of extension.

[bhughesgolf]

His shoulders are going to move up (left) & down (right) because of the axis tilt he has and the late firing of his hands into impact which allows him to hold angles longer than most other golfers....BUT... the left shoulder is working away from the target at a rapid rate of knots....that is how he still produced power but gained better control of his ball because he keep his upper am connection and replaced the arm speed and club roll he had with pivot speed....also how the high finish occurs at follow through point

The pics that HG posted aren't possible to assume anything much because one of them (I think many of those pics were mine from postings... .yes .so I have seen them all before and know them well).....is a sequence of all different swings (see the people in the background...one guy has his right arm shielding the sun..then his left arm...then he isn;t even in the next one)

The face on view with the numbers and lines all over it.....there are people in the background in the final 3 pics and his shoulders stay very level with those people..... his left shoulder raises slightly into impact because he is uncocking his late wrist angle and the shoulder will move upward as a result as the left arm seeks it's straight alignment with the shaft at impact

The face on or out in front one in the fedora hat....is not a good down the line view......I teach my students a little trick on how to get the camera lined up perfectly so I can get a perfect x ray of what is going on...and that camera in those pics is set up to the right of target so isn't going to give an ideal view...plus the bottom frame pics are big and small and the trees as reference in the background are altered because of the different sized pics.

I showed this pic before.....one is steepening his shoulders and the other is working the shoulders more level with pivot and ground leverage... Steeper shoulders occur because of an earlier release with a ball that is too far forward for the kind of release the player has... so the arms/hands can move outward/forward and normally the right arm straightens or left armpit disconnects as a result so the player can catch the ball that is set up in a forward ball position....and that is just nothing like what Hogan did

[attachment=1337635:aroundup.JPG]

[bhughesgolf]

Never trying to go low and left....no intent to do so...it happens from a shallower entry with forearm rotation and NOT a full uncock of the wrists into impact...fully uncocking raises the shaft vertical....Hogan always kept the shaft inline with his centre at impact as does Trevino (2 of the best ever)....fully uncock the wrists the are going to roll because you aren't maintaining pressure in the upper arms

the hands work left... the clubhead stays lower (as shown below) and then because there is nowhere else to go and acceleration is still intact the arms and club [b]then[/b] move vertically up to a steep high finish
The guys that steepen the shoulders move the club away from the core and fold to a finish....

[attachment=1337647:hoganbubba1 (2).jpg]
[attachment=1337649:tigerben.JPG]

[dairic]

I think the issue here is bhughes is describing a shoulder motion relative to the hips while HG describes a shoulder motion relative to the ground which makes it impossible for agreement to be reached. Because the swing is on an incline plane there will always be a vertical component to the shoulder turn relative to ground so one could say there some "steepness" to the turn.

HG, do you agree that the picture that bhughes posted shows two postes up that the shoulder turn on the left is flatter than the one of the right relative to the hips? If so then let's consider this puzzle solved because I think that this is the point that bhughes is trying to put across here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[chrisgilly09]

The first picture of Ben is taken well to the left of him as opposed to the next pic where it is dtl. IMO, this makes the shoulders look more level to the ground.

Agree that his L wrist is level at impact but there I feel there is no hold off and the difference comes down to grip

[dpb5031]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347033424' post='5602137']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1347032232' post='5602015']
The way I understand Geoff's teachings (and I am a student) is that that a DTL/pivot stalling/rollover release player can derive some benefit from [b][i]feeling [/i][/b]as if they are swinging more low/left. The "thought" or "feel" of low/left helps keep the butt end of the club following the core pivot as it rotates around and to the left for a right handed player. The hands stay synched-up to the rotating core, close to and in front of the belt buckle through impact.

You can have relatively steep shoulders yet still benefit from the feeling of low/left through impact.
[/quote]

@dpb

I am not saying a disconnected and flinging away of arms. I am saying arms tight to the core/pivot/armpits, but the shoulders GETS moved more vertically rather than level by Hogan's UNIQUE pivot. That pivot is the controller. So no pivot stalling/rollover release. Yeah, arms being in sync with the core pivot.

I just happen to respectfully disagree with Brad and Geoff on the low and left INTENT of the pivot. There's a reason why Hogan had that kind of extension.
[/quote]

I understand and I know that you don't advocate a stall / roll-over release, but this steep vs. flat discussion is all just relative, is it not?

Since we swing on an inclined plane, all swings are going to have an element of horizontal rotation (moving around to the left), as well as an element of vertical rotation (moving up). Helicopter rotor (flat) versus airplane propeller (steep). I don't really see Hogan's shoulders rotating in an orientation that I would describe as particularly steep, nor would I describe them as particularly flat. It is the connection of his upper left arm well through impact combined with his agressive pivot that seem to set him apart. The feeling of hands low/left helps some players maintain that connection.

Agree that Hogan has fantastic extension and a high finish. He definitely works the left shoulder up considerably, as well as around, but his arms don't swing up until after he has rotated his core around more to the left than most other players.

HG101, can you explain the uniqueness of Hogan's pivot that you mention?

[ALIF]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1347035793' post='5602355']
I think the issue here is bhughes is describing a shoulder motion relative to the hips while HG describes a shoulder motion relative to the ground which makes it impossible for agreement to be reached. Because the swing is on an incline plane there will always be a vertical component to the shoulder turn relative to ground so one could say there some "steepness" to the turn.

HG, do you agree that the picture that bhughes posted shows two postes up that the shoulder turn on the left is flatter than the one of the right relative to the hips? If so then let's consider this puzzle solved because I think that this is the point that bhughes is trying to put across here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
[/quote]

This!

[TeeAce]

If we draw a line to shoulders that is perpendicular to the spine and follow the shoulders, IMO they are not steep if they stay at that line. For me that's the difference between steep and flat shoulders, as I see "as flat as possible" being at that line.

I have never seen Hogan doing something else than rotating his shoulders around his spine.

[dairic]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347040879' post='5602705']
If we draw a line to shoulders that is perpendicular to the spine and follow the shoulders, IMO they are not steep if they stay at that line. For me that's the difference between steep and flat shoulders, as I see "as flat as possible" being at that line.

I have never seen Hogan doing something else than rotating his shoulders around his spine.
[/quote]

This sounds good to me. However, as someone who has struggled with working the club to far to the inside on the backswing, this motion FEELS very steep to me.

[bhughesgolf]

Nope ... I am talking shoulders working in relation to the targetline
It cannot be more obvious in the pics of Ben Tiger & Bubba
All Their hips in the driver swings are similar. Hogans shoulders match his hips close in alignment the others dont.
Hogans left shoulder gets moved more away and faster with the post impact pivot work.
Is this really that difficult to see?

[bhughesgolf]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1347042260' post='5602811']

This sounds good to me. However, as someone who has struggled with working the club to far to the inside on the backswing, this motion FEELS very steep to me.
[/quote]

Wrong ball position for your swing or standing too far away from ball

[dairic]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347057311' post='5603959']
Nope ... I am talking shoulders working in relation to the targetline
It cannot be more obvious in the pics of Ben Tiger & Bubba
All Their hips in the driver swings are similar. Hogans shoulders match his hips close in alignment the others dont.
Hogans left shoulder gets moved more away and faster with the post impact pivot work.
Is this really that difficult to see?
[/quote]

I think it's fairly obvious from the pics you posted that hogan's left shoulder is faster at moving away from the target line post impact because his shoulder turn is more aligned with his hips. You've done a great job at supporting your case I think.

[dairic]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347057511' post='5603977']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1347042260' post='5602811']

This sounds good to me. However, as someone who has struggled with working the club to far to the inside on the backswing, this motion FEELS very steep to me.
[/quote]

Wrong ball position for your swing or standing too far away from ball
[/quote]

Interesting, I was convinced that my problem of working the club to much to the inside was in part caused by me standing too far away from the ball. One of the fixes was to stand closer to the ball, but this had the consequence of the shoulder turn FEEL to be vertical even though it's now perpendicular to my spine or "flat" relative to the hips when observed on video.

[ALIF]

The above pictures show Hogan's shoulders about 45* to the target line and the other guys are almost perpendicular. I think a lot of the people who are new to the low and left idea get sidetracked thinking the shoulders need to turn similar to the helicopter blades than the airplane propeller. HG is just trying to emphasize that the shoulders still have a decent vertical component, which obviously from those pictures, they do. He's not advocating a propeller type shoulde turn, he's just trying to keep people from making the helicopter type motion which they seem so prone to do.

Also, Hogans beltline and shoulders look pretty parallel, where as the other two players show a big angle between the two. Just hurts my back even looking at them. HG has stated the latter is wrong b/c it leads to flipping, throwing arms at the ball, getting disconnected, etc.

Furthermore, Geoff doesn't like the "low and left" he'd prefer the word rotatory. I'm not sure how this phrase has become in vogue, but it gives a false idea. It's a rotatory motion so naturally the club should go left, but it doesn't go low, it goes up as you have previously stated.

As always, I really enjoy your posts Brad. Please keep posting here. I'm also keen on your ABS site and your videos from your own personal site have helped me out more than you'll ever know.

[dpb5031]

Low and left is simply a description of a "feeling" for the hands through impact...not the club...the hands stay close to the belt line and upper arms stay connected to the rotating torso. Hands are low (relative to dtl type releases) and it is definitely a rotary move.

[ALIF]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1347061027' post='5604313']
Low and left is simply a description of a "feeling" for the hands through impact...not the club...the hands stay close to the belt line and upper arms stay connected to the rotating torso. Hands are low (relative to dtl type releases) and it is definitely a rotary move.
[/quote]

This!

[hoganfan924]

Show me just one current PGA tour player that goes more "low and left" than Hogan or Snead. [b][i]Just one [/i][/b]with the shaft exiting waist high in the DTL view.

You can't get to that follow through position with a "vertical" shoulder turn. Don't know how anyone cannot see or understand this.

Shoulders rotating perpendicular to the upper thoracic/lower cervical spine:

[attachment=1338181:Hogan exit.jpg]
[attachment=1338183:Snead exit.jpg]

[bhughesgolf]

I know this isn't a household name but the guy did win a US Open Lew Worsham..... gives a good look from overhead and of course the grid background is always useful. From the same 'LIFE" golf film from 1954 that had Hogan & Snead & Mangrum on the grid also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ3lcKeNjCU

[JBOMB808]

Hard to capture that specific frame, but Hunter and Matteo are pretty close.

 

Keep in mind Hunter's wielding a driver...

[hoganfan924]

There are some that get close, Mahan and Manessero amongst them. I'd add Toms, J Byrd from a few years ago, Furyk, older Sergio. But none as low & left as Snead, IMO and Mahan is probably the only one really as low as Hogan (maybe).

Thing is, I've studied swings of many players of the 40's and 50's including others not mentioned much here like Souchak, Harbert, Mangrum, Demaret, Divicenzo, Burke Jr., January, Middlecoff and several others and they all release this way, [b][i]not a single one of them [/i][/b]releases like Fowler or Mickleson. Remember, with wound balata balls, and persimmon drivers, they had to maximize clubface control without giving up much distance and this is the release style that they all developed. That's not a coincidence, it was a necessity! Just look at that video of Worsham, looks like his shoulders are 50 deg open at impact with the upper left arm glued tightly to the chest/ribcage.

Just think about the Hogan/Snead Shell's WWoG match in 1965 for a moment. Hogan was 53 years old with a battered body playing a 7000+ yard course with persimmon and wound balata's and hit hit every single fairway and green. Pretty huge lesson there for anyone who's paying attention!

[svsvincenzo]

@Brad

I don't agree that the hips of TW and Bubba are similar to Hogan at all. TW and Bubba's hips are not as open as Hogan if you compare apple to apples, fades to fades, draws to draws. Maybe we should show pics where we know what the shots are. These are players. They can hit all kinds of shots. Right, left, low, mid, high, etc. For all we know Hogan may be hitting a specialty low draw (hence less extension and less open hips and early-levelling shoulders) while TW and Bubba high fades.

For fades, Hogan's hips are generally more open and more forward. Hogan is into full frontal extension, starting that process right from transition. What most of us miss IMHO is how this kind of uniqueness in Hogan's pivot affects the swing, specifically the shoulders, which in turn affects the direction where the arms, hands and clubhead goes. For fades where he needs the clubhead to travel as DTL as possible past the apex of the arc (his ball is on L heel), he always had that full frontal extension wherein the hips are forward wherein his R hip goes past the L hip or at least goes inline early and fast at the same time his upper center/head remains stable (not going forward. How can you turn your shoulders flat with that? TW and Bubba is a poor comparison IMO bec their hips don't move the same as Hogan.

Our objective here is not only to keep the arms connected to the body, it is also to get the clubhead moving as close to DTL as possible for the longest time WHILE keeping the arms connected. IMHO, only way to do that is to move the shoulder more vertical, not level or out and in.

Careful though as just one try with this may cause us to hit it DTL but under ground level...lol..yeah, getting it low and left or elevating the L shoulder or goat humping or elevating the upper center need to be done to avoid the ground while still keeping the arms connection. IMHO, this can be managed differently.

Reposting this video for everybody's learning on how an extensioning pivot affects the shoulder turn, hence the arms, hence the hands, hence the club:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhIswVn2RpU&sns=em

[JBOMB808]

It's hard to compare because one's flexibility is going to dictate how open or closed ones hips and/or shoulders are to the target. What I think we can compare is their hands exit path from the body. Down the line ala Fowler or taken left with the pivot ala Hogan.

[bhughesgolf]

I just don't see Hogan or Miller or Trevino or Player keeping the clubhead down the line ....I see them keeping the shaft inline with the baseline/target line and the clubhead works to the inside
The guys on the lower sequence Mickelson, Fowler, Tiger and Cink are all chasing the clubhead down the line with scant regard for where the shaft goes.
The top row turn the club and keep the shaft inline with their chi area--- the power source and control source of human movement.. ask any martial arts guy about where their power source is and how they control their movement or originate it from.. the bottom row just wing the shaft off their chi/center looking for velocity with no regard for control

Are we holding the shaft or the clubhead in our hands?

[attachment=1338377:targetandclub.JPG]

[svsvincenzo]

@Brad

No, not saying that. I'm saying as DTL as possible without disconnecting the arms. So it will still go left because the ball is farther from the body, not directly below the upper center. But IMO we should not think low and left, we should think as vertical and DTL as possible without disconnecting the arms from the core/torso/pivot.

Only way to do that is to tweak the shoulder movements, which in turn can be tweaked by tweaking the pivot---what Manzella is describing. The old man finish (being in forward flexion) vs. reverse-c-ish finish (full extension).

The main issue here for most people (which I struggled for couple of years) is that since the R shoulder goes down a lot, that brings the hands down a lot as well, so that brings down the clubhead a lot as well, so the clubhead will now be at impact at "below ground level" if you don't do anything else, which makes the clubhead hit the ground way before the ball (which some people interpret as the low point moving back, but actually it didn't, the low point now is still vertically aligned with the ball, but now the low point is way under the ball---clubhead being to underplane).

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347070546' post='5605139']
I just don't see Hogan or Miller or Trevino or Player keeping the clubhead down the line ....I see them keeping the shaft inline with the baseline/target line and the clubhead works to the inside
The guys on the lower sequence Mickelson, Fowler, Tiger and Cink are all chasing the clubhead down the line with scant regard for where the shaft goes.
The top row turn the club and keep the shaft inline with their chi area--- the power source and control source of human movement.. ask any martial arts guy about where their power source is and how they control their movement or originate it from.. the bottom row just wing the shaft off their chi/center looking for velocity with no regard for control

Are we holding the shaft or the clubhead in our hands?

[attachment=1338377:targetandclub.JPG]
[/quote]

Brad - I really appreciate your posts. A good friend of mine is doing the ABS and it's very excited about his progress.

Anyway, I have a question that's relates to all this. I believe you like to see the shoulders still shut to the target line in the delivery position (p6, just before impact). I am a little confused by this because I believe Slicefixer likes to see the shoulders very open at impact. I know it's two different models, but obviously there's many similarities. I guess I'm just wondering where you like the shoulders at impact? Are they shut in delivery and then opening like crazy through impact (and therefore open at impact)?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347064287' post='5604575']
There are some that get close, Mahan and Manessero amongst them. I'd add Toms, J Byrd from a few years ago, Furyk, older Sergio. But none as low & left as Snead, IMO and Mahan is probably the only one really as low as Hogan (maybe).

Thing is, I've studied swings of many players of the 40's and 50's including others not mentioned much here like Souchak, Harbert, Mangrum, Demaret, Divicenzo, Burke Jr., January, Middlecoff and several others and they all release this way, [b][i]not a single one of them [/i][/b]releases like Fowler or Mickleson. Remember, with wound balata balls, and persimmon drivers, they had to maximize clubface control without giving up much distance and this is the release style that they all developed. That's not a coincidence, it was a necessity! Just look at that video of Worsham, looks like his shoulders are 50 deg open at impact with the upper left arm glued tightly to the chest/ribcage.

Just think about the Hogan/Snead Shell's WWoG match in 1965 for a moment. Hogan was 53 years old with a battered body playing a 7000+ yard course with persimmon and wound balata's and hit hit every single fairway and green. Pretty huge lesson there for anyone who's paying attention!
[/quote]

HF, I have similar question for you to the one I just asked Brad. You mentioned how Worsham's shoulders were very open at impact. Do you and/or slicefixer like to see them slightly closed (like I believe Brad does) into impact, and them opening rapidly so at impact they are open?

I am seeing slicefixer in person in November so I'll definitely ask, but if you could shed light on it now it'd be extremely helpful because I'm going to hit a million balls between now and then.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347068855' post='5605027']
@Brad

I don't agree that the hips of TW and Bubba are similar to Hogan at all. TW and Bubba's hips are not as open as Hogan if you compare apple to apples, fades to fades, draws to draws. Maybe we should show pics where we know what the shots are. These are players. They can hit all kinds of shots. Right, left, low, mid, high, etc. For all we know Hogan may be hitting a specialty low draw (hence less extension and less open hips and early-levelling shoulders) while TW and Bubba high fades.

For fades, Hogan's hips are generally more open and more forward. Hogan is into full frontal extension, starting that process right from transition. What most of us miss IMHO is how this kind of uniqueness in Hogan's pivot affects the swing, specifically the shoulders, which in turn affects the direction where the arms, hands and clubhead goes. For fades where he needs the clubhead to travel as DTL as possible past the apex of the arc (his ball is on L heel), he always had that full frontal extension wherein the hips are forward wherein his R hip goes past the L hip or at least goes inline early and fast at the same time his upper center/head remains stable (not going forward. How can you turn your shoulders flat with that? TW and Bubba is a poor comparison IMO bec their hips don't move the same as Hogan.

Our objective here is not only to keep the arms connected to the body, it is also to get the clubhead moving as close to DTL as possible for the longest time WHILE keeping the arms connected. IMHO, only way to do that is to move the shoulder more vertical, not level or out and in.

Careful though as just one try with this may cause us to hit it DTL but under ground level...lol..yeah, getting it low and left or elevating the L shoulder or goat humping or elevating the upper center need to be done to avoid the ground while still keeping the arms connection. IMHO, this can be managed differently.

Reposting this video for everybody's learning on how an extensioning pivot affects the shoulder turn, hence the arms, hence the hands, hence the club:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhIswVn2RpU&sns=em[/media]
[/quote]

Wow I love that video. I might be a bone head but that was very interesting. Never though of pivot that way.

[bhughesgolf]

Tyler.....the shoulders have to be closed off coming into impact if you are going to have a range of motion available in the torso to keep it moving. Whether they are open or square at impact is no big deal......it all depends on the shot being played. If I had the ball back and was using an open stance my shoulders may look squarer....If I had the ball forward and was squarer to my target my shoulders may appear open.
The big thing is the pivot moves.....so the connection is maintained and the club keeps accelerating....IMO the pivot happens much later than many people think it does. If you watch that Hogan gif I posted you see it. trying to just pivot turn into impact....no good. You may have a nice looking angle but you lose the pressure of the shaft and are just holding on and not releasing the sum of all parts

HG101.....I think we both know what we are saying but in different ways. I personally hate to use the term 'steep shoulders' or trying to be vertical with the shoulders. A coach got me to do thousands and thousands of reps on that ideal....i hit balls at Colonial one year for 8 hours one day and 9 hours the next....kicked VJ's a** on the range time that day LOL.....kept doing and doing it.....vertical back and vertical through.....turned me so far off my original releasing golf swing into the biggest arm throw pivot stall flipper you could imagine, and totally ruined me game. Still hard to shake that crap off.
I teach my students to think like they are using a left side ab/oblique crunch post impact.....gets everything going...shoulders go up and around level on an axis.....hands work left...clubface doesn't roll because the pivot is moving the hands instead of the hands moving the pivot..... around and up with acceleration to high steeper vertical finish point and then fold to finish.

I am presuming this is the left side extension you are talking about.....but thinking left side ab crunch instead of thinking vertical shoulders makes the world of difference to how the pivot will then control the connection and post impact movements of club control and acceleration and speed for varying distance shots.

[attachment=1338455:benny.JPG]

Hogan never looked like he was holding on or steering.....he was fully releasing the club because his pivot was MUCH later than just trying to turn the pivot into impact...he pressured the shaft from around his body into impact and then kept pressuring it up to finish with massive pivot work overtaking the chance for the hands to overpower or the arms to disconnect.....

[ALIF]

Nice posts! Hogan learned a bit about impact physics. He learned that if his club was swung in a manner that would allow it to continue to accelerate after it hit the ball, then the ball would go further than if the club didn't accelerate after it hit the ball. Hence, he never backed off his pivot at or shortly after impact. He continued to turn his pivot (long pivot, late pivot, etc) as hard as he could into his high follow through. Pure genius.