About this whole steep vs flat shoulder turn business

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1347071489' post='5605237']
[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347070546' post='5605139']
I just don't see Hogan or Miller or Trevino or Player keeping the clubhead down the line ....I see them keeping the shaft inline with the baseline/target line and the clubhead works to the inside
The guys on the lower sequence Mickelson, Fowler, Tiger and Cink are all chasing the clubhead down the line with scant regard for where the shaft goes.
The top row turn the club and keep the shaft inline with their chi area--- the power source and control source of human movement.. ask any martial arts guy about where their power source is and how they control their movement or originate it from.. the bottom row just wing the shaft off their chi/center looking for velocity with no regard for control

Are we holding the shaft or the clubhead in our hands?

[attachment=1338377:targetandclub.JPG]
[/quote]

Brad - I really appreciate your posts. A good friend of mine is doing the ABS and it's very excited about his progress.

Anyway, I have a question that's relates to all this. I believe you like to see the shoulders still shut to the target line in the delivery position (p6, just before impact). I am a little confused by this because I believe Slicefixer likes to see the shoulders very open at impact. I know it's two different models, but obviously there's many similarities. I guess I'm just wondering where you like the shoulders at impact? Are they shut in delivery and then opening like crazy through impact (and therefore open at impact)?
[/quote]

I'm no Bradley, but something I found after listening Bradley, was that longer my students keep them shoulders closed, more open they are at impact. I know it feels kind of paradox, but it really works that way.

Also have to tell you how stupid I felt myself few years ago when started working with 4DSwing device and tried to get students be more open at impact. Whatever we tried to do, only thing that happened was that they were at the same position bit earlier. Then one night just started to laugh at myself and realized how stupid I was all the time with that. Open shoulders at impact got nothing to about that how fast and how you rotate them. It's something else you need to change if you want to get them and I think thats the explanation just why Bradleys way works as it does.

[TeeAce]

Here is one example how much it changes in few weeks when just understood where your hands have to go after impact

 

 

And what happened at the same time? Guy who was 3-5 degrees open from shoulders at impact was 19-23 after that.

[tylerdurden]

Thanks Bradley and TeeAce. Appreciate the info.

[IH82BOGEY]

How Hoganesque would this player look if he hit the ball off the ground instead of hip high? Would his shoulders be steep or flat? Does it really matter?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjxqs3pApI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjxqs3pApI[/url]




Rose is swinging his hands in a circle left of what would be the target line resulting in the barrel of the bat being thrown outwards (behind the hands with no crossover release). It is powered by the pivot for sure but the shoulders have to comply with the direction required for the hands to go especially if the arms are connected (in sync) with the body. Swinging your hands away from the ball is (reversing a natural instinct) what greatest baseball hitters learn. Poorer hitters drive their hands at the ball and apply hand torque only to hit with their arms straight staliing and rolling over. To me, whatever shoulder angle it takes to get this hands left and up throwing the club in pendulum fashion down and out is dependent on ball position, body proportions, shot being played, etc. In other words, secondary.

[hoganfan924]

What I, Slicefixer, (and I believe TeeAce and Bradley) are saying is that the change of direction of the handpath to the left (via the pivot and a connected left arm) is a crucial element to passively squaring the clubface and for maintaining a quiet clubface through impact. What Geoff means when he says "allow physics to square the face." This is where the rubber meets the road in his teaching. You can see this in the release in almost every player Geoff has posted on his youtube channel. He does have a few good players that are a little more "down the line" than he prefers but they are guys that started with him that were already good when they showed up. Changing a Rickie Fowler to a Hunter Mahan is very risky when their livelihood depends on it. Got to tread lightly when changing tour pros.


[color="#000000"]5L, page 96:[/color]
[quote]
[color="#000000"]I don’t give as much as a passing thought to how the face of my club will contact the ball. That’s all been taken care of before, at address and during the waggle. Consciously trying to control the face of the club at impact is folly. You cannot time such a delicate and devilish thing. It happens too fast, much too fast.[/color]

[/quote]

[TeeAce]

What I, Slicefixer, (and I believe TeeAce and Bradley) are saying is that the change of direction of the handpath to the left (via the pivot and a connected left arm) is a crucial element to passively squaring the clubface and for maintaining a quiet clubface through impact. What Geoff means when he says "allow physics to square the face." This is where the rubber meets the road in his teaching. You can see this in the release in almost every player Geoff has posted on his youtube channel. He does have a few good players that are a little more "down the line" than he prefers but they are guys that started with him that were already good when they showed up. Changing a Rickie Fowler to a Hunter Mahan is very risky when their livelihood depends on it. Got to tread lightly when changing tour pros.

 

 

5L, page 96:

I don’t give as much as a passing thought to how the face of my club will contact the ball. That’s all been taken care of before, at address and during the waggle. Consciously trying to control the face of the club at impact is folly. You cannot time such a delicate and devilish thing. It happens too fast, much too fast.

 

 

At least from my side you are right on spot. And those forces created by that change of direction are so big, that player even needs to produce opposite forces to prevent the face closing too much.

 

Traditiona video angles gives us a view that golf swing is just s circular (or ellipse) movement, but unfortunately that's an illusion that 3D devices is correcting. When having those things under research, we need to see all those 3 dimensions isolated to understand what really happens there.

 

First thing for me to find that was the path graph, which shows actually the top down view and both hand and club head distance from target line are measured, as red line is hands and blue line is club head.

 

 

We can clearly see two things from that graph.

 

At transition hands are moving toward the target line and club head is moving away from it. That's the thing we call flattening the shaft ( I think Bradley agrees with this) but also we have to notice that hands don't drop straight down, they move also out. It's kind of OTT move but keeping the CH still dropping in as opposite than in hackers OTT move with steepening shaft.

 

The other crucial moment is, like you said, the moment when hands from that view change their direction about 90 degrees (and that's a lot!) and club starting to release by that change and face continuing it's movement toward the target line from very much inside.

 

The other quite big change happens bit later than that, when hands as they have been moving down, quickly turns to move up BEFORE IMPACT (the green line)

 

 

IMO there is not one thing that resists the face closing too much, but there is at least two and might be more to find when we research it more, but at least players intention to accelerate through impact is one and I think the never ending ext rotation of the right shoulder that prevents the left arm roll (keeping the right elbow in and front) is the other.

 

Now what can we see from hand speeds?

 

There is two ways to measure them and this is from one and same shot of this player

 

 

The line that shows more deceleration is telling the lateral speed toward the target and the other line is telling the absolute speed of the hands. We see that much of difference just because they turn to go left, but we also can see that the real deceleration is minimized, because this player fires his shoulders as hard as he can through impact, not stalling them to release the club.

 

So.. I cant believe that those things can be achieved with steeper shoulder plane as I have also seen many many of them and everything looks so different and all of them just seems to sling the club just like Bradley is saying. To be able to release that way and prevent hands deceleration, one just have to rotate around the vertical axis and have his/hers hands following that motion... low and left

[ALIF]

Left, but not low. The lowest part or bottom of the swing is just after impact when you take a divot. After that, the club goes up and left, not low and left. Explain to me how the club goes lower than after the divot. If it did, you would be taking one LONG divot. I think we need to be careful with our wording, otherwise confusion will result.

[allycat]

Hands low and left? Though of course, the hands are also rising after impact.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1347137026' post='5608275']
Left, but not low. The lowest part or bottom of the swing is just after impact when you take a divot. After that, the club goes up and left, not low and left. Explain to me how the club goes lower than after the divot. If it did, you would be taking one LONG divot. I think we need to be careful with our wording, otherwise confusion will result.
[/quote]
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEJIkVgwt3k

[bhughesgolf]

Chiva
The low and left is -- the low is the hands are not fully uncocking and raising/steepening the shaft... they stay in line with the body center at impact and as the body and club move thru. Thats the low part whichis a "big reason" as to what keeps the shaft on plane and face control thru/beyond impact. The left is obvious as the hands disappear around the rotating work station
This happens quickly but the club should then feel like it is climbing like a rocket launch straight up after the rotation is maxed up... Hands stay lower and left than guys come into impact too much down the line and disconnect the arms and raise the shaft up into impact and then roll the shaft and head because their pivot was dropped off at 45th street back around hip high entry point
No intention of going low and left..... the hands stay lower into and through the strike by forearm rotation from a shallow entry ... how much wristcock we hold at hip high entry is the built in downward strike... the forearms rotate and hands uncock some in unison for strike and the body is really starting to come along for the ride now as the final guy to receive the baton and run the last 100 of the relay

[allycat]

Great post.

[ALIF]

Good post Brad. Thanks:)

[ALIF]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1347141826' post='5608631']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1347137026' post='5608275']
Left, but not low. The lowest part or bottom of the swing is just after impact when you take a divot. After that, the club goes up and left, not low and left. Explain to me how the club goes lower than after the divot. If it did, you would be taking one LONG divot. I think we need to be careful with our wording, otherwise confusion will result.
[/quote]
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEJIkVgwt3k
[/quote]


That really made me laugh! Thanks Jbomb!

[bhughesgolf]

That Tiger video shows how he has no forearm rotation to utilize. He is coming down steep angle of attack and the pivot is just trying to pull passive steering hands into a low left look. It is horrendous as shown by how deep long thick and across the divot was

[svsvincenzo]

That's because TW don't have the unique extension that Hogan has Brad. Reason also why he has to be extra-vertical. If he doesn't the baseline/path will be so left.

[bhughesgolf]

I wouldn't say Hogan had a unique extension....all he has better is spine/axis tilt which also allows him to keep his forearms rotated clockwise away from him and the club on a shallower entry path
this getting left business gives away axis/spine tilt and the spine gets too vertical and over the ball...left shoulder gets too low and the body is hunched....and there is only one way out of that with the long clubs ad it is to stand up into a straightening right leg and a straightening right arm to try and make room for the club again....call it stuck if you want...because the club can't turn from that position.. it has to be stood up with straightening body parts and wailing hands and arms to try create speed.

[attachment=1339923:bentigershots.JPG]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='allycat' timestamp='1347139015' post='5608407']
Hands low and left? Though of course, the hands are also rising after impact.
[/quote]

As low as possible.

You are right they start to rise, but player tries to keep them low . They just have to rise as geometry gives no other possibility

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347169463' post='5610447']
That's because TW don't have the unique extension that Hogan has Brad. Reason also why he has to be extra-vertical. If he doesn't the baseline/path will be so left.
[/quote]

HG, where you find all these claims that anyone can see directly they are not true?

Are you playing just games with us who try to help people here or do you really believe those things no one else does?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347172900' post='5610529']
I wouldn't say Hogan had a unique extension....all he has better is spine/axis tilt which also allows him to keep his forearms rotated clockwise away from him and the club on a shallower entry path
this getting left business gives away axis/spine tilt and the spine gets too vertical and over the ball...left shoulder gets too low and the body is hunched....and there is only one way out of that with the long clubs ad it is to stand up into a straightening right leg and a straightening right arm to try and make room for the club again....call it stuck if you want...because the club can't turn from that position.. it has to be stood up with straightening body parts and wailing hands and arms to try create speed.

[attachment=1339923:bentigershots.JPG]
[/quote]

@Brad

Those are draw shots of Hogan wherein his extension comes into full circle much later. For fades, he has L side extension just like the players you posted, but he has full frontal extension early and fast wherein he not only has L side extension but also his R hip gets past the L hip much earlier than anybody including Johnny Miller and Jack Nicklaus. So Hogan not only has that reverse-c finish, his R hip also gets way past his L hip.

What do you think are the effect of this to the pivot, shoulders, arms, and clubface?

[bhughesgolf]

Just can't see Hogan getting his right hip past his left hip let alone way past (except in the video on YouTube where his right foot slips on the 1st tee at Olympic in 55 US Open)
Not much difference to note here with Miller or Nicklaus..... draw or fade or pop sky or hosel rocket

[attachment=1340017:hoganmillerjack.JPG]

And if we look at a full swing from start to finish (because I am unsure 100% if you mean from original left hip position also) Miller actually gets his right hip to the original left hip finish line (in red) slighty before Hogan
Also worth noting just how far they both pull the left shoulder back away from the red line near impact and beyond

[attachment=1340021:hoganingrid.JPG]
[attachment=1340027:jmiller.JPG]

[tofur99]

[quote name='IH82BOGEY' timestamp='1347112472' post='5606689']
How Hoganesque would this player look if he hit the ball off the ground instead of hip high? Would his shoulders be steep or flat? Does it really matter?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjxqs3pApI[/media]




Rose is swinging his hands in a circle left of what would be the target line resulting in the barrel of the bat being thrown outwards (behind the hands with no crossover release). It is powered by the pivot for sure but the shoulders have to comply with the direction required for the hands to go especially if the arms are connected (in sync) with the body. Swinging your hands away from the ball is (reversing a natural instinct) what greatest baseball hitters learn. Poorer hitters drive their hands at the ball and apply hand torque only to hit with their arms straight staliing and rolling over. To me, whatever shoulder angle it takes to get this hands left and up throwing the club in pendulum fashion down and out is dependent on ball position, body proportions, shot being played, etc. In other words, secondary.
[/quote]

I had a huge "aha" moment after pondering that video and your post, thank you!

[allycat]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347173791' post='5610543']
[quote name='allycat' timestamp='1347139015' post='5608407']
Hands low and left? Though of course, the hands are also rising after impact.
[/quote]

As low as possible.

You are right they start to rise, but player tries to keep them low . They just have to rise as geometry gives no other possibility
[/quote]

I think there was a miss communication there, probably my bad. Chiva was saying how can the club go lower then impact, I was clarifying the idea was the hands.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347202105' post='5611341']
Just can't see Hogan getting his right hip past his left hip let alone way past (except in the video on YouTube where his right foot slips on the 1st tee at Olympic in 55 US Open)
Not much difference to note here with Miller or Nicklaus..... draw or fade or pop sky or hosel rocket

[attachment=1340017:hoganmillerjack.JPG]

And if we look at a full swing from start to finish (because I am unsure 100% if you mean from original left hip position also) Miller actually gets his right hip to the original left hip finish line (in red) slighty before Hogan
Also worth noting just how far they both pull the left shoulder back away from the red line near impact and beyond

[attachment=1340021:hoganingrid.JPG]
[attachment=1340027:jmiller.JPG]
[/quote]

@Brad

This video is pre-tournament practice:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf2o_NtA9ug[/media]

[svsvincenzo]

@Brad

Better Hogan sequence IMO. R hip really gets past the L hip, showing that Hogan's R hip and leg get released for that extension way earlier:

[attachment=1340769:post-28669-1199640144-1_thumb.jpg]

[bhughesgolf]

HG101
I am lost now
First post you said right hip past left hip and last post you said right hip past right hip

[allycat]

2 right hips to go along with 3 right hands, lol.

Did he turn the right hip past the left or have the hips pointing left of the target after impact?

[bhughesgolf]

Or does the left shoulder work so far left and away that the right hip looks farther forward... we are an animal of balance and need to oppose things to remain in balance

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347246906' post='5614821']
HG101
I am lost now
First post you said right hip past left hip and last post you said right hip past right hip
[/quote]

Lol...you know what I mean..

The heck with extension!...rofl

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347237032' post='5613949']
@Brad

Better Hogan sequence IMO. [b]R hip really gets past the L hip[/b], showing that Hogan's R hip and leg get released for that extension way earlier:

[/quote]

I start to beleive you just play games with us.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347254075' post='5615267']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347237032' post='5613949']
@Brad

Better Hogan sequence IMO. [b]R hip really gets past the L hip[/b], showing that Hogan's R hip and leg get released for that extension way earlier:

[/quote]

I start to beleive you just play games with us.
[/quote]

Yup...that unique Hogan extension is very very hard to do...