About this whole steep vs flat shoulder turn business

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1345130057' post='5482530']
He is def. stalling and letting the club turn over. His intention is more linear into his left leg, he gets more of that upward force, he runs into and out of his left leg, and straightens it, so the club flips. Like old Tiger. Its completely different than Matteo or Hogan's leg work.
[/quote]

If he's flipping then why isn't the club face flipped over post impact?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345127687' post='5482336']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1345092552' post='5480832']
..........and he's also flipping his hands through impact and stalling his pivot.

Aside from that Bradley's a dead ringer for Hogan...... just look at that bent right elbow!!

Guys, different equipment, different swings, simple as that.
[/quote]

I disagree that he is flipping his hands through impact. I don't love his release or anything but his clubface is relatively square to the arc for a long time. He's a very good driver of the ball too. I watch him in person at Quail on practice round - I was amazing because he was literally flipping out dropping F bombs about bombed drives that found the left center of the fairway. "what the f*** is going on??!?!" to quote him, right after a 320 bomb down the left center.

Further evidence it's not flipped through impact, the toe doesn't turn down hard when club gets back parrallel to ground post impact.
[/quote]

its relatively square pre impact, and of course its solid at impact otherwise it wouldn't go straight............ aside from that the club rapidly turns over post impact, it does this clear as day........... very different from Hogan's, Knudson's or Trevino's release............

How can he have these swing mechanics whilst still being a great driver of the ball?............... its a great swing!......... combined with great rhythm, tempo, timing and hand eye coordination.......... same as every other talented pro on Tour these days who practice 7 hours a day........... they almost all have this basic characteristic to their swing (swinging more upright and/or rapidly turning the club over) yet remain tremendous ballstrikers.

I repeat, I would love to swing it like Keegan Bradley........ and if I did I wouldn't give two damns about Hogan's swing

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1345185799' post='5487356']
its relatively square pre impact, and of course its solid at impact otherwise it wouldn't go straight............ aside from that the club rapidly turns over post impact, it does this clear as day........... very different from Hogan's, Knudson's or Trevino's release............

How can he have these swing mechanics whilst still being a great driver of the ball?............... its a great swing!......... combined with great rhythm, tempo, timing and hand eye coordination.......... same as every other talented pro on Tour these days who practice 7 hours a day........... they almost all have this basic characteristic to their swing (swinging more upright and/or rapidly turning the club over) yet remain tremendous ballstrikers.

I repeat, I would love to swing it like Keegan Bradley........ and if I did I wouldn't give two damns about Hogan's swing
[/quote]

I understand. My point is that his clubface doesn't start to turn down until atleast a foot past impact, probably more, and it only turns down once his right arm is strait. His right arm is bent well through impact, and that's why his clubface is stable and he isn't a flipper in the section of swing that counts the most.

[ej002]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345140074' post='5483564']
]

If he's flipping then why isn't the club face flipped over post impact?
[/quote]
It does, just at a slower rate than say the Poster Boy flipper VJ. YOu can see the stall of the hips.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345214359' post='5488668']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1345185799' post='5487356']
its relatively square pre impact, and of course its solid at impact otherwise it wouldn't go straight............ aside from that the club rapidly turns over post impact, it does this clear as day........... very different from Hogan's, Knudson's or Trevino's release............

How can he have these swing mechanics whilst still being a great driver of the ball?............... its a great swing!......... combined with great rhythm, tempo, timing and hand eye coordination.......... same as every other talented pro on Tour these days who practice 7 hours a day........... they almost all have this basic characteristic to their swing (swinging more upright and/or rapidly turning the club over) yet remain tremendous ballstrikers.

I repeat, I would love to swing it like Keegan Bradley........ and if I did I wouldn't give two damns about Hogan's swing
[/quote]

I understand. My point is that his clubface doesn't start to turn down until atleast a foot past impact, probably more, and it only turns down once his right arm is strait. [b]His right arm is bent well through impact, and that's why his clubface is stable and he isn't a flipper in the section of swing that counts the most.[/b]
[/quote]

Good point.

I gotta disagree though that his clubface isn't turning over rapidly post impact............. its consistent rotation from what I can see and he's far more turned down than Hogan was at a foot past impact, but I'll let others decide for themselves.

Again though KB has a lot of modern fundamentals............ upright swing plane, stalling pivot, and turns the club over rapidly........... the equipment (weight, lie angles) must have a lot to do with this.

this is a nice view.............. pivot stall @ [b]0.32[/b]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPflhznJby8[/media]

[hoganfan924]

Keegan's release IMO is pretty "middle of the road" for PGA tour. Remember, it's a continuum. VJ, Rickie on one end of the spectrum, Mahan on the other end. Certainly wouldn't call KB a "flipper."

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1345215031' post='5488732']
I gotta disagree though that his clubface isn't turning over rapidly post impact............. [b]its consistent rotation from what I can see and he's far more turned down than Hogan was at a foot past impact, but I'll let others decide for themselves.[/b]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPflhznJby8[/media]
[/quote]

IMO, you need to remember the face is always rotating to some degree. More valid question is how long is it square to the club path/arc. KB isn't rapidly closing the club relative to his arc. If I could figure out how to upload a picture I would post one to prove it, but I can't lol.

But to say he's far more turned down post impact then anyone is crazy IMO. A foot or two past impact in that video you posted, he isn't turned down at all. Face is still square to the path.

I geuss my point is, you don't need to have a Hogan style release to have a stable clubface. Keegan is definitely way different than Hogan, obviously, but that doesn't make him a flipper. Again, just look at the club face in the video you post if and pause soon after impact. Square to arc, just like Hogan. It's far from low and left but its obviously very effective.

I agree he's slightly more closed down when club gets back to hip high, but is that even relevant? I mean the ball is 30 yards down the center at that point going 180MPH.

[tylerdurden]

Plus, look when the club exits through his left shoulder. Toe is vertical. Not turned down AT ALL. That says a lot IMO.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345222699' post='5489618']
Plus, look when the club exits through his left shoulder. Toe is vertical. Not turned down AT ALL. That says a lot IMO.
[/quote]

All good points.

I think I meant to say turned [i]over[/i].............. one thing I'd like to point out is that its deceptive the extent to which Keegan has turned the club over............. he's seriously vertical here, and swinging on a very steep shoulder plane............. crazy steep at impact........... hard to turn the toe over towards the ground with those two variables............... but you're right, he's fairly stable by tour standards.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1345224030' post='5489732']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345222699' post='5489618']
Plus, look when the club exits through his left shoulder. Toe is vertical. Not turned down AT ALL. That says a lot IMO.
[/quote]

All good points.

I think I meant to say turned [i]over[/i].............. one thing I'd like to point out is that its deceptive the extent to which Keegan has turned the club over............. he's seriously vertical here, and swinging on a very steep shoulder plane............. crazy steep at impact........... hard to turn the toe over towards the ground with those two variables............... but you're right, he's fairly stable by tour standards.
[/quote]

Yeah true.

I'm shocked HG101 hasn't jumped on this since he LOVES steep shoulders so much lol.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345227394' post='5490080']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1345224030' post='5489732']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345222699' post='5489618']
Plus, look when the club exits through his left shoulder. Toe is vertical. Not turned down AT ALL. That says a lot IMO.
[/quote]

All good points.

I think I meant to say turned [i]over[/i].............. one thing I'd like to point out is that its deceptive the extent to which Keegan has turned the club over............. he's seriously vertical here, and swinging on a very steep shoulder plane............. crazy steep at impact........... hard to turn the toe over towards the ground with those two variables............... but you're right, he's fairly stable by tour standards.
[/quote]

Yeah true.

I'm shocked HG101 hasn't jumped on this since he LOVES steep shoulders so much lol.
[/quote]

IMO, KB doesn't need the continuous hip turn that translates to full frontal extension because he's turning his shoulders so vertical anyway. His path is straight anyway. Hogan's natural plane is less vertical, so he needs the full extension to avoid turning his shoulders level.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1345290159' post='5493744']
IMO, KB doesn't need the continuous hip turn that translates to full frontal extension because he's turning his shoulders so vertical anyway. His path is straight anyway. Hogan's natural plane is less vertical, so he needs the full extension to avoid turning his shoulders level.
[/quote]

I think this is valid. I don't really think it's what Hogan does, maybe he does in some eras to a degree, but it works for KB. Dude better be ready to lose his putter though.

[eightiron]

Geez , what's this to do with hogan , I agree with hogan fan , besides hogans shoulders work independently , it isn't that hard , buy some glasses , it's abc

[svsvincenzo]

This all started when folks say Hogan swung his shoulders level, and yours truly says they turn more vertical/steep. Well, they look at R/L shoulder in BS/DS, I look at L/R shoulder in BS/DS...lol

[tembolo1284]

this is a fun thread.

[bhughesgolf]

[TeeAce]

I

 

I think they cant be more level than here. And left elbow out, right shoulder in. From this view they just disappear behind of the body, but from top down it's visible they maintain their relation to the shoulders as much as possible like that through impact.

 

Nice gif Bradley

[svsvincenzo]

 

@Brad

 

Pivot has engaged already at the 1st frame. So the R shoulder has gone down already due to the pivot engaging causing the R elbow to become more pitch, hence bringing the R elbow down and R shoulder down. Plus the pics are squashed down vertically. That's why Hogan looks more "muscular" or "fat" in those pics.

 

What year are those pics btw?

 

Here is a decent frame where you can see his R shoulder. The camera is on an angle, so the L arm doesn't cover the R shoulder.

 

 

[svsvincenzo]

Here is I think the same series of pics (not sure). Check out the frame at 00:6 sec mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wlIIg6JQiU

[svsvincenzo]

Look at the 4th pic, before the R shoulder gets covered by the L arm:

[attachment=1337495:13533.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

Here is a video where the camera is a bit high, so you can see Hogan's R shoulder not covered by the L arm. And note that this video is squashed vertically as well. But still the R shoulder is high, the L shoulder is down on top, with Hogan's face facing the ball directly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKHgvo3hldc

[svsvincenzo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9g7CZGx5WI

Here you can see Hogan's R shoulder clearly up close with a DTL view/camera. Note that it goes high, the L shoulder goes low below his chin with his face looking down, not up. Then right before he reaches the top (before the clubhead reaches its farthest in BS), the R shoulder is going down already together with the R elbow making the R elbow more pitch on top/transition. Looks to me like the L arm pushes on the R forearm, thus causing the R elbow to "give" and go down into more pitch, thus bringing the R shoulder down as well. Also, note that this is also where the R hip goes towards his back and towards the target. That will also have an effect on the height of the R shoulder. That's why at around P3.5 it would seem that the R shoulder is at its highest.

So, the flatter R shoulder look is a consequence of the combination of all of the following: the L arm covering it, the pivot engaging already, the R elbow is being in more pitch, the R hip is going back and target wards, thus resulting to the R side beginning already its process of R side bend/tilting and thus causing the R elbow and R shoulder to fall down already.

[TeeAce]

Here is a video where the camera is a bit high, so you can see Hogan's R shoulder not covered by the L arm. And note that this video is squashed vertically as well. But still the R shoulder is high, the L shoulder is down on top, with Hogan's face facing the ball directly...

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

How you can even think someone could swing more flat shoulders than him? For me those all are as flat as they can and they go just around the spine angle. Steep shoulders would mean the shoulder plane looking much more to the ball and less perpendicular to the spine.

 

And as you like so much my BSW, here is one still about it to compare

 

 

Now HG, I think we all wait to see something from you, not only words you have been reading or you have been told. Your own movements please to show us how you have achieved those things.

[bhughesgolf]

HG
When I have been talking about level shoulders I have always meant post impact..... as shown in pics below
[attachment=1337509:striking.JPG]
You can see how far the left shoulder has moved away from the target line in the two frames.....the left shoulder moving away means the shoulders are turning level.....and we only have to see where the hands have gone and how far the clubhead has moved inside the divot path and the flight path to know he is turning level..... pretty low and left wouldn't you say
[attachment=1337527:striking1.jpg]

[TeeAce]

Can you Bradley put also some stills of that shot just about the moment when hands are shoulder height at FT. That tells so much how strongly he fired to the left at that point even he finished quite high after all. Thanks

[dpb5031]

Love this thread...thanks guys, and keep it going!

[svsvincenzo]

@Brad

I think Hogan's R shoulder is still on its way down and the L shoulder still on its way up at that point (impact). This is the reason I respectfully disagree with you that he is releasing low and left.

Have a look at these series of pics. Clearly shows the movements of both shoulders in BS, in transition, at impact, and even post-impact.

[attachment=1337569:hogan_2011-11-27.jpg]
[attachment=1337571:IMG_0501.jpg]
[attachment=1337583:post-28669-1199640144-1_thumb.jpg]
[attachment=1337567:13533.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

@Brad

Here is another sequence of pics with great camera angle where you can see the L shoulder and decipher where the R shoulder goes:

[attachment=1337619:gifhogangreatviewimpact1.jpg]
[attachment=1337621:gifhogangreatviewimpact2.jpg]
[attachment=1337623:gifhogangreatviewimpact3.jpg]
[attachment=1337625:gifhogangreatviewimpact4.jpg]
[attachment=1337627:gifhogangreatviewimpact5.jpg]

[dpb5031]

The way I understand Geoff's teachings (and I am a student) is that that a DTL/pivot stalling/rollover release player can derive some benefit from [b][i]feeling [/i][/b]as if they are swinging more low/left. The "thought" or "feel" of low/left helps keep the butt end of the club following the core pivot as it rotates around and to the left for a right handed player. The hands stay synched-up to the rotating core, close to and in front of the belt buckle through impact.

You can have relatively steep shoulders yet still benefit from the feeling of low/left through impact.

[TeeAce]

HG, steep shoulders and hands toward the target might be good for you, but they are just opposite what Hogan did. When searching his real secret, thats the first thing to realize. He fired his hands as hard left as possible by his pivot and the club had to be adjusted to that move. Just what Bradley is showing us.