About this whole steep vs flat shoulder turn business

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1344341549' post='5422058']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344329942' post='5421706']
What's the advantage of turning the shoulders more flat or level or parallel to the ground vs more perp or vertical?
[/quote]

Because it gives more of an angle hinge on the way through resisting against clubface closure as the left wrist stays flatter and the right wrist stays bent compared to a steeper shouldred pivot staller who would fully release the **** of the wrists and shut the face down..... the pivot pulls the arms and club with the butt of the club staying more in line with the chi (the body's energy/power source) and the shaft would stay in a more leveraged alignment.....as opposed to vertical where the arms run away from the body and shaft moves out of alignment through and post impact as the clubface closes and the butt of the club loses it's connection to the chi
Holding clubface alignments all the way to finish shows NOTHING has disturbed the clubface and the chi area is a massive power source to continue acceleration of the club in tune with a working pivot motion structured through ground connection

Using the pics of Hogan that you posted hogan101...don't see/show any difference from the one I posted....level turning shoulders in relation to the spine

[attachment=1293756:benthruturn.JPG]
[attachment=1293758:benthruturn1.JPG]
[/quote]

Brad,

Your criss-cross lines are off. On the R shoulder the line is on top, on the L shoulder its below it. What are you avoiding to show the readers. Lets be honest here.

[ALIF]

I've decided to sit on the sideline and just observe. I don't have a good enough understanding to make anymore comments. Maybe I'll learn a thing or two:)

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344400076' post='5428172']
IMO, Hogan don't need to swing low and left to release his lag because his lag is not artificially created with an over-cupping L wrist. Firstly, Hogan said that cup was almost invisible to the human eye; so, it was very minimal. Secondly, he said he didn't cup for a draw. So even if he didn't cup, even for a draw, he clearly still has the lag. Getting lag via over-cupping of the L wrist will make the club unc0ck too much too fast at release and will make the clubhead dig into the ground way before into the ball. To avoid this you have to really swing low and left. Hogan maintains the lag as late as possible, even looks like he retains some of it at impact.

I really wish Geoff/Slicefixer can join in the discussion. This will be a super great discussion. [b]I'm sure all of us wants to hear it from the man himself.[/b]
[/quote]

Surely the man himself is 6 feet under, lol............... a Ouiji board perhaps?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344400408' post='5428198']
[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1344341549' post='5422058']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344329942' post='5421706']
What's the advantage of turning the shoulders more flat or level or parallel to the ground vs more perp or vertical?
[/quote]

Because it gives more of an angle hinge on the way through resisting against clubface closure as the left wrist stays flatter and the right wrist stays bent compared to a steeper shouldred pivot staller who would fully release the **** of the wrists and shut the face down..... the pivot pulls the arms and club with the butt of the club staying more in line with the chi (the body's energy/power source) and the shaft would stay in a more leveraged alignment.....as opposed to vertical where the arms run away from the body and shaft moves out of alignment through and post impact as the clubface closes and the butt of the club loses it's connection to the chi
Holding clubface alignments all the way to finish shows NOTHING has disturbed the clubface and the chi area is a massive power source to continue acceleration of the club in tune with a working pivot motion structured through ground connection

Using the pics of Hogan that you posted hogan101...don't see/show any difference from the one I posted....level turning shoulders in relation to the spine

[attachment=1293756:benthruturn.JPG]
[attachment=1293758:benthruturn1.JPG]
[/quote]

Brad,

Your criss-cross lines are off. On the R shoulder the line is on top, on the L shoulder its below it. What are you avoiding to show the readers. Lets be honest here.
[/quote]

I was waiting to see if you noticed that...........

[eightiron]

How do you draw straight lines on a curved spine anyway? Better of drawing the line on upper thoracic

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1344404135' post='5428406']
How do you draw straight lines on a curved spine anyway? Better of drawing the line on upper thoracic
[/quote]

Upper thoracic AND cervical would be better...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1344401379' post='5428270']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344400076' post='5428172']
IMO, Hogan don't need to swing low and left to release his lag because his lag is not artificially created with an over-cupping L wrist. Firstly, Hogan said that cup was almost invisible to the human eye; so, it was very minimal. Secondly, he said he didn't cup for a draw. So even if he didn't cup, even for a draw, he clearly still has the lag. Getting lag via over-cupping of the L wrist will make the club unc0ck too much too fast at release and will make the clubhead dig into the ground way before into the ball. To avoid this you have to really swing low and left. Hogan maintains the lag as late as possible, even looks like he retains some of it at impact.

I really wish Geoff/Slicefixer can join in the discussion. This will be a super great discussion. [b]I'm sure all of us wants to hear it from the man himself.[/b]
[/quote]

Surely the man himself is 6 feet under, lol............... a Ouiji board perhaps?
[/quote]

By "from the man himself" I meant Geoff/Slicefixer.

[bhughesgolf]

Which one? The top left left one maybe?
Others are all right on the shoulders......

Only trying to show something instead of jumbled words on a page that no-one understands or can have a visual of
Why would I try hide anything? Bottom line is Hogan turned very level with his shoulders compared to most. You dont have to agree but for many wanting to see the difference it is what it is

[svsvincenzo]

I see what I see. Still doesn't change. Even NBD sees it. If you can re-draw the lines exactly on the top of the shoulders, that would be nice. Without the lines, I see the shoulders steeper than perp to the GENERAL spine angle from lumbar to thoracic spine. As pointed out by eightiron, the spine is curved anyway. So, as I've been saying all along, Hogan's shoulders actually turn on the overall tilt of his upper thoracic and cervical spines because that is where the shoulders are connected and thus turning around.

Brad, you yourself swings your L arm steep during your playing years. I'm talking about the same principle. Its just that you made the plane steeper with your L arm, I'm saying you make the plane steeper with the shoulders so that you don't have to disconnect the R armpit and bother about re-connecting it in transition.

[svsvincenzo]

Re-looked at the pics with cross-lines you posted. All of them are not exactly on top of the L shoulder.

[nicebutdim]

I told him that relationship between the Shoulder line and Hip line is more relevant, i.e. how parallel are they......... the spine bends so drawing a T isn't quite identifying the right thing IMHO.

Wish I could figure out how to upload an image onto here and then I'd make my ramblings visual........ can anyone help? (PM me please)

[bhughesgolf]

Nicebutdim
Very much same thing. Have posted pics of Hogan & Bubba & shark & tiger showing this Hip shoulder relationship also in previous posts.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1344434309' post='5429442']
Nicebutdim
Very much same thing. Have posted pics of Hogan & Bubba & shark & tiger showing this Hip shoulder relationship also in previous posts.
[/quote]

Any chance of digging it out for us? I've got a reputation to uphold............ and I'm beginning to ramble........... a picture says a thousand words and all that jazz.

[bhughesgolf]

Apparently no picture is worth anything
Mate I have no idea where I posted it on here and am on phone so dont have files with me to repost. The difference sticks out like a honeymooners though, and plain as day.... unless I 'purposely' drew the lines on the stills incorrectly AGAIN .... FBOW lol

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344397574' post='5427974']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344395054' post='5427748']
The only path that matters is the path during the 1" of ball/club impact. Far more important is clubface control and you wont understand that very well with slo-mo swings. Stew on that for a while, maybe you'll begin to understand the genius of Hogan and why he made the changes that he did
[/quote]

You didn't answer my question HGFan. I remember the reason for the low and left release is because that's allegedly the only proper way to release Hogan's lag. But I wanted to ask to be sure. So, what's the reason for the low and left? What's its advantages? Yes of course what matters is the path when the clubhead hits the ball, 1" as you said. But don't you think it will be much BETTER for consistency's sake that around 2 feet of straighter path is better while still retaining the armpit connections?
[/quote]

It's been pretty clear that for the last several months you've had either an axe to grind against Geoff's teachings or you're simply trying to goad his students into revealing more details by misrepresenting what he teaches. I gave you my answer. Not going to spoon feed it to you in minute detail. Go figure it out.

[nicebutdim]

 

Apologies Bradley for any copyright infringement!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344440041' post='5430018']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1344397574' post='5427974']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344395054' post='5427748']
The only path that matters is the path during the 1" of ball/club impact. Far more important is clubface control and you wont understand that very well with slo-mo swings. Stew on that for a while, maybe you'll begin to understand the genius of Hogan and why he made the changes that he did
[/quote]

You didn't answer my question HGFan. I remember the reason for the low and left release is because that's allegedly the only proper way to release Hogan's lag. But I wanted to ask to be sure. So, what's the reason for the low and left? What's its advantages? Yes of course what matters is the path when the clubhead hits the ball, 1" as you said. But don't you think it will be much BETTER for consistency's sake that around 2 feet of straighter path is better while still retaining the armpit connections?
[/quote]

It's been pretty clear that for the last several months you've had either an axe to grind against Geoff's teachings or you're simply trying to goad his students into revealing more details by misrepresenting what he teaches. I gave you my answer. Not going to spoon feed it to you in minute detail. Go figure it out.
[/quote]

I don't have an axe to grind with Geoff's teachings. These are my honest opinions. Just happens to disagree here, which I'm sure is ok with you, right? The low and left release was brought up by somebody else.

HGFan, why can't we disagree with Geoff wrt that particular aspect of the swing in this forum, huh?

I asked a legitimate question in there for the sake of learning and to give you a chance to explain and confirm my understandings. Way back, if I didn't ask, you'll tell me I'm making assumptions. Now that I'm asking, you tell me I'm on a fishing expedition.

Btw, the 2 versions of ET are in my head. I know it with the palm of my hand. So I'm not just saying things plucked out of nothing here.

[bhughesgolf]

nicebutdim
These are the pics I was thinking off..... Hogan and Bubba....and Tiger at Memorial '12

[attachment=1296636:HoganBubba.JPG]
[attachment=1296638:hoganbubba1 (2).jpg]
[attachment=1296640:tigerben.JPG]

[drewspin]

You know the thing that jumps out at me about the above sequence? It's the right knee flex. Tiger and Bubba are straight vertical with the right knee.

Two things:

1) minimal head drop toward the ball on the downswing, then

2) maintain the intent to pressure through to an "impact" point past the actuall ball location.

Say the ball is at 12 o'clock, now imagine a line established by the 1/4 turn CCW of the left foot points to 10 o'clok.

Now if the INTENT is to pressure through past 12 to 10 o'clock ("POST-IMPACT IMPACT INTENTION") (see hogan in the bottom left frame above) then you keep some of that right knee flex and most of that angle between the right arm and shaft longer through the strike.

Doesn't maintaing the intent I describe above pretty much take care of all worrys about how the shoulders should turn?

Said a little differently: You maintain some axis tilt as you rotate through the impact area.

[hoganfan924]

Bubba and Tiger (and Rory, Rickie et. Al.) compress thier right sides a lot more than Hogan. They also staighten their left leg much earlier. Hogan's move is much more around and less down. I think this is what Schlee was talking about (and Bradley) when they say "level left.". Hogan is using the ground and his feet differently. More torque and shear force, less normal force than others. This is why he had extra spikes and why his foot slipped on the 18th at Olympic in '55.
Much higher shear force. Compare that to guys today that wear spikeless.

This pop theory of "compressing into the ground and springing up". Will probably go the way of the "slowing the pivot speeds up the club" nonsense that several high profile instructors were promoting just a couple of years ago.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344524969' post='5436902']
Bubba and Tiger (and Rory, Rickie et. Al.) compress thier right sides a lot more than Hogan. They also staighten their left leg much earlier. Hogan's move is much more around and less down. I think this is what Schlee was talking about (and Bradley) when they say "level left.". Hogan is using the ground and his feet differently. More torque and shear force, less normal force than others.
This pop theory of "compressing into the ground and springing up". Will probably go the way of the "slowing the pivot speeds up the club" nonsense that several high profile instructors were promoting just a couple of years ago.
[/quote]

The differences in swing techniques and the reason its changed is interesting to note................ which is better? Highly subjective

All I know is that despite idolizing ballstrikers of yesteryear, I'm equally in awe of Jamie Sadlowski.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1344525728' post='5436988']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344524969' post='5436902']
Bubba and Tiger (and Rory, Rickie et. Al.) compress thier right sides a lot more than Hogan. They also staighten their left leg much earlier. Hogan's move is much more around and less down. I think this is what Schlee was talking about (and Bradley) when they say "level left.". Hogan is using the ground and his feet differently. More torque and shear force, less normal force than others.
This pop theory of "compressing into the ground and springing up". Will probably go the way of the "slowing the pivot speeds up the club" nonsense that several high profile instructors were promoting just a couple of years ago.
[/quote]

The differences in swing techniques and the reason its changed is interesting to note................ which is better? Highly subjective

All I know is that despite idolizing ballstrikers of yesteryear, I'm equally in awe of Jamie Sadlowski.
[/quote]

Long drive and golf are 2 very different things. Sadlowski only has to hit a huge grid 1 out of 6 times. I've read that in '53 @ Carnoustie, Hogan only missed 1 fairway, including practice rounds. And with a super spinny wound balata, not a pinnacle. Hogans intentions are very different - trying to produce the most ideal combination of distance and accuracy

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344526420' post='5437094']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1344525728' post='5436988']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344524969' post='5436902']
Bubba and Tiger (and Rory, Rickie et. Al.) compress thier right sides a lot more than Hogan. They also staighten their left leg much earlier. Hogan's move is much more around and less down. I think this is what Schlee was talking about (and Bradley) when they say "level left.". Hogan is using the ground and his feet differently. More torque and shear force, less normal force than others.
This pop theory of "compressing into the ground and springing up". Will probably go the way of the "slowing the pivot speeds up the club" nonsense that several high profile instructors were promoting just a couple of years ago.
[/quote]

The differences in swing techniques and the reason its changed is interesting to note................ which is better? Highly subjective

All I know is that despite idolizing ballstrikers of yesteryear, I'm equally in awe of Jamie Sadlowski.
[/quote]

Long drive and golf are 2 very different things. Sadlowski only has to hit a huge grid 1 out of 6 times. I've read that in '53 @ Carnoustie, Hogan only missed 1 fairway, including practice rounds. And with a super spinny wound balata, not a pinnacle. Hogans intentions are very different - trying to produce the most ideal combination of distance and accuracy
[/quote]

Do I really have to stoop to defending Long Drive guys?!

Sadlowski pulverizes it and is also a scratch golfer who's has played only one Nationwide event and still made the cut............ I've also seen him hit the grid 5/6 times at the business end of the REMAX WLDC.

Not to mention airmailing Bubba here and landing it on the money each and every time........

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5TKiGRDGx0[/media]

As the sport of golf currently stands his game does just fine and its exciting to see a small guy swing the club 150mph.

[hoganfan924]

No need to defend anything. I'm in awe of Sadlowski as well but I think he's not very relevant to the discussion, as he only has one intention, IMO. Lot's of "freaks of nature" in other sports that are one trick pony's. Like a fireball pitcher that can throw 103 mph but walks 1 hitter/inning and can't throw a change up. Certainly something to marvel at though. What ever happened to the Finau brothers? Would you rather have the football career of Jerry Rice or Renaldo Nehemiah? I don't find it really all that subjective in evaluating which approach is better overall. If a guy like Sadlowski comes up and starts hitting 60% fairways and winning, that will get my attention.

[rok78]

I think what's missing in this whole conversation is a baseline for understanding. Steep or Flat relative to what? Low and Left relative to what?

Also, a steeper shoulder turn does usually mean a path more shifted right if the shoulders are square relative to the target at impact. But what happens to the path when the shoulders become more open at impact? Then path becomes more neutral and club exit will be more "low left".

[rok78]

Also, if you believe Kelvin Miyahara, more right side bend engages the "spine engine" and helps facilitate rotation through impact, and is a biomechanical advantage. So in essecence, more right side crunch, left side extension, open shoulders/trunk relative to the target at impact.

Did Hogan do these? I think he somewhat did, he gets super open right after impact and has tremendous rotational speed.

[tofur99]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344524969' post='5436902']
Bubba and Tiger (and Rory, Rickie et. Al.) compress thier right sides a lot more than Hogan. They also staighten their left leg much earlier. Hogan's move is much more around and less down. I think this is what Schlee was talking about (and Bradley) when they say "level left.". Hogan is using the ground and his feet differently. More torque and shear force, less normal force than others. This is why he had extra spikes and why his foot slipped on the 18th at Olympic in '55.
Much higher shear force. Compare that to guys today that wear spikeless.

This pop theory of "compressing into the ground and springing up". Will probably go the way of the "slowing the pivot speeds up the club" nonsense that several high profile instructors were promoting just a couple of years ago.
[/quote]

what's the difference between compressing into the ground and springing up, and utilizing shear and torque force? also what do you mean by normal force?

[drewspin]

Sadlowski does a couple key things that Hogan and other straight ball hitters do, depsite taking his left hand grip and his leverage to REDICULOUS extremes.

Does anyone know what Hogan's fairway percentage off the tee was? Not to my knowledge. There is so much mythology about him, it is difficult to find the facts from the mythology, legend and lore. One thing I know for sure is that I have reviewed a large number of Hogan pictures (post secret) and he is hitting out of the rough in a LOT of them. He was human, and a great one.

The subjective terminology (flat vs. upright, Low left vs. DTL) and relative lack of good quality video (especially front views of Hogan) make it all too easy to go round and round in the debates.

[drewspin]

Watch the Hogan head drop. It is ALMOST FINISHED by the time the club shaft starts down in the downswing, THEN the head is VERY STILL. Even in the frame-by frame illustration that McLean and McCarthy use in their new book, they fail to see that the downward move is ALL FINISHED BEFORE the downswing really begins, and Hogan does NOT sit down during the downswing. That's why I despise their repeated idea of Hogan using a "sit-down" position/point/move. It's baffling. His head drop has more to do with the leftward diagonal shift into transition than any lowering of the body to compress into the ground [u]on the downswing[/u].


Watch Tiger and Rory... head drops a LOT during the first part of the downswing.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tofur99' timestamp='1344537463' post='5438280']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1344524969' post='5436902']
Bubba and Tiger (and Rory, Rickie et. Al.) compress thier right sides a lot more than Hogan. They also staighten their left leg much earlier. Hogan's move is much more around and less down. I think this is what Schlee was talking about (and Bradley) when they say "level left.". Hogan is using the ground and his feet differently. More torque and shear force, less normal force than others. This is why he had extra spikes and why his foot slipped on the 18th at Olympic in '55.
Much higher shear force. Compare that to guys today that wear spikeless.

This pop theory of "compressing into the ground and springing up". Will probably go the way of the "slowing the pivot speeds up the club" nonsense that several high profile instructors were promoting just a couple of years ago.
[/quote]

what's the difference between compressing into the ground and springing up, and utilizing shear and torque force? also what do you mean by normal force?
[/quote]

Normal forces are those that are perpendicular to a surface, like the weight of your body on the ground through your feet. Shear forces are parallel to the surface (like what happens if your right foot ever slips behind you on a swing). The two feet in shear (when applied in opposite directions to each other) can create a moment (torque) about your pelvis and each individual foot can also produce a torque about it's own leg (like Mike Maves' foot twist). I believe in a golf swing it's actually opposite - that the shear forces at the ground are reactions to the muscle contractions that rotate the pelvis

There is a popular theory amongst some biomechanists that the rotation of the pelvis is 100% caused by the normal force of the head of the left femur bone pushing vertically into the the left pelvic joint. This aligns with Tiger's old mantra about "snapping his left leg" into impact for a little more distance. However, I believe that this is a secondary, not primary source of speed and is being "oversold" by these biomechanists - just like "stalling the pivot speeds up the club" was being sold a couple of years ago. It certainly isn't very present in Hogan's swing. Those who believe in the use of a high normal force, teach a "squat in transition, spring up through impact" type downswing. Those who believe in more torsional and shear forces (whether they realize it or not) teach a more rotational/core driven pelvic turn with the feet simply reacting.