Persimmons Lofts

[baccarat]

Hello guys (and dolls)

 

I am new here and am looking to acquire some vintage persimmons woods. After reading some of the articles I have decided to ask questions first before diving in.

 

First, what are the lofts of Mac woods, D thru 5 fairway. I am not sure if I should consider a set of 2, 3, 4, or a 3, 4, 5. The driver is obvious.

 

I have other questions, but this is a starting point.

 

Thanks for the help.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344452620' post='5431472']
Hello guys (and dolls)

I am new here and am looking to acquire some vintage persimmons woods. After reading some of the articles I have decided to ask questions first before diving in.

First, what are the lofts of Mac woods, D thru 5 fairway. I am not sure if I should consider a set of 2, 3, 4, or a 3, 4, 5. The driver is obvious.

I have other questions, but this is a starting point.

Thanks for the help.
[/quote]

Not an easy question to answer ... lofts were all over the place, because of the way "wood" woods were designed. Drivers started around 7 Degrees in the "LFF" model and probably around 9 or 10 in the M85's & M43's. The 2 Woods were generally about 11-13 Degrees, but they were all over the place, too. Remember, "woods" had bulge & roll that was more dramatic than the current metal woods and people used to re-work those woods all the time. They were a completely different animal than the current high tech metalwoods.

[xgolfx]

The specs for MacGregor Toney Penna 1965 VIP custom lofts were. 11,14,16,18 1/2, and 21 degrees. Lengths were 43,42 3/4,42 1/2,42, and 42. Lie 53,53,53 1/2,54, and 54

CHARLEY PENNA

[baccarat]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1344460349' post='5432338']
[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344452620' post='5431472']
Hello guys (and dolls)

I am new here and am looking to acquire some vintage persimmons woods. After reading some of the articles I have decided to ask questions first before diving in.

First, what are the lofts of Mac woods, D thru 5 fairway. I am not sure if I should consider a set of 2, 3, 4, or a 3, 4, 5. The driver is obvious.

I have other questions, but this is a starting point.

Thanks for the help.
[/quote]

Not an easy question to answer ... lofts were all over the place, because of the way "wood" woods were designed. Drivers started around 7 Degrees in the "LFF" model and probably around 9 or 10 in the M85's & M43's. The 2 Woods were generally about 11-13 Degrees, but they were all over the place, too. Remember, "woods" had bulge & roll that was more dramatic than the current metal woods and people used to re-work those woods all the time. They were a completely different animal than the current high tech metalwoods.
[/quote]

Thanks Brian

I do know about bulge and roll. A few years ago I had TaylorMade custom build me a 13 deg "3 wood", but with the longest shaft I could get in order to create a 2 wood. A bit tough to hit well, but I do love the results and want to keep something similar in a vintage set.

Based on your info, I may want to stay with a 2. I am not certain which model I might end up with, my current thoughts are leaning toward the 693. I am also uncertain if there is a difference between the 693 and the 693T. I have seen and read about both.

Loft is my first consideration, then, shaft is next. I am naturally a high ball hitter and would like to get things down a bit. I currently use a 10.5, and have an 8.0 for high wind situations. A couple of years ago my club pro said that due to my steep angle of attack, there is nothing on the market ( new tech ) that would help me any. My 8 looks like a 10, the 10 like a 12 and a 12 looks like a great wedge. If I am correct, a low flex launches high and a high flex launches low.

I am going "old" because I know that it will help me swing smoother and quit overswinging and looking for the 275 yds. I know that I may sacrifice some distance, but distance is an overrated issue for the average player. I am currently an 11. A couple of years ago I was an 8. The change is due to over doing it, especially off the tee and long club fairway shots.

Thanks again and will continue to monitor the issue and look for more feedback.

Mike

[baccarat]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1344462559' post='5432550']
The specs for MacGregor Toney Penna 1965 VIP custom lofts were. 11,14,16,18 1/2, and 21 degrees. Lengths were 43,42 3/4,42 1/2,42, and 42. Lie 53,53,53 1/2,54, and 54

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Thanks Charley

I get the impression on these forums that you are a bit of a "guru" on these issues. Were the various models similar? I do not have any absolute preference. I have seen may of the TP VIPs, but haven't looked seriously yet.

Being a rookie here, are you a relative to the reknown Toney?

Mike

[xgolfx]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344463308' post='5432622']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1344462559' post='5432550']
The specs for MacGregor Toney Penna 1965 VIP custom lofts were. 11,14,16,18 1/2, and 21 degrees. Lengths were 43,42 3/4,42 1/2,42, and 42. Lie 53,53,53 1/2,54, and 54

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Thanks Charley

I get the impression on these forums that you are a bit of a "guru" on these issues. Were the various models similar? I do not have any absolute preference. I have seen may of the TP VIPs, but haven't looked seriously yet.

Being a rookie here, are you a relative to the reknown Toney?

Mike
[/quote]


Toney was my uncle. The info came from his specs book. Sets came as 1,2,3,4, 1,3,4,or 1,3,5. You will not be able to lengthen the clubs and maintain playability because the swing weight will not be attainable.

CHARLEY PENNA

[baccarat]

Charley

I would not begin to think of changing any of the specs on clubs of this nature. With all of the variables in modern clubs, it is a different matter all together.

Vintage and virtually custom/hand made should be played "as is". Potentially, new shafts and grips, but the original specs would remain the same.

Any suggestions on where to look? I am always leery of ebay, but there are some good looking varieties there. Should I consider buying as is used and sending them out for restoration, or buy already restored ones?

Thanks
Mike

[xgolfx]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344465341' post='5432764']
Charley

I would not begin to think of changing any of the specs on clubs of this nature. With all of the variables in modern clubs, it is a different matter all together.

Vintage and virtually custom/hand made should be played "as is". Potentially, new shafts and grips, but the original specs would remain the same.

Any suggestions on where to look? I am always leery of ebay, but there are some good looking varieties there. Should I consider buying as is used and sending them out for restoration, or buy already
Thanks
Mike
[/quote]

New shafts will make playability difficult because the modern shaft will make a D2 to D4 swing weight with the original specs pretty hard to achieve, especially if you lengthen the clubs. I do not like to see refinish because even the best will change the crown ,bulge and roll, face progression, and lie,loft. They may look shiny, but the clubs will not play as intended. Sorry if I offend some posters, but I know that players of that era took great care of their equipment and were reluctant to change. Hogan never put a club in play until he hit at least one thousand shots with it.

CHARLEY PENNA

[BrianL99]

In theory, the only difference between a 693 & 693T, should be the cord grip on the "T". Every 693 I've ever seen, had loft under 10 degrees.

That said, MacGregor lofts were all over the place and I can't find any mention of wood "loft" in the MacGregor catalogs from those days.

As Charley said, almost all the woods from those days have been re-worked & refinished and you'd be hard pressed to find an original head, that hasn't had some amount of work done to it. It's not like these days, where you can reach into the TM bin & pull out 3 R11's, all of which will be reasonably consistent. I talked with Jack Nicklaus at the US Open at Winged Foot in 1984 and he told me that he had put his 945 Driver back together with epoxy, a couple of times ... he couldn't duplicate the feel of that Driver.

As for the VIP's that Charley mentioned, I believe they were a "custom offering" by MacGregor in 1965. As far as I know, the first mention of the VIP series was around 1967. MacGregor credits Toney Penna with designing the "new Impact-Wate insert" for the 1965 model run.

There's not much doubt that Toney Penna was the greatest clubmaker, to ever put his hands on a hunk of persimmon.

[baccarat]

Thanks for all the info. I had not thought of the fact that any set of persimmons clubs that I might buy would, in all likelihood, have already been reworked and/or refinished in some way or another. I would make every attempt to keep as close to the original design and intent as possible. With a somewhat limited manufactured specifications available I can only rely on information that is presented to me here. Charley's Loft, Length and Lie information from his uncle's spec books is a great start. Also his swing weight info of D2 for a driver is equally important.

Regarding the swing weight issue, perhaps I misspoke when I mentioned re-shafting with a "modern" shaft. I should have said a "newer" shaft, even if that might be something from the 80's or 90's. I believe that a heavier shaft would maintain a lower swing weight and still maintain the 43" general length. The swing of any individual can and will have a profound effect on the performance of any club, new, old, or older.

Based on the current information supplied, it would look like buying a set and then doing my best to do what is necessary to restore or maintain the original design is about the best I can do. Whatever the bulge and roll happen to be will be what it is.

I saw a set of JN VIP's on ebay, but they had a grey face implants that looked like polyurethane. Not very appealing.
A set of 693T's looked to be closer to the originals, even if refinished.

Any and all information I can be given will continue to guide my decision and or subsequent actions. It seems that quite of few guys here own several different sets, perhaps because of the "feel" issue. I do not know and perhaps will have to go the same route until I find a set that I have a better feel for and like.

Another issue that I have noted is "Block" versus Laminated". Is there any specific year and/or model when Mac went from one to the other?

Thanks
Mike

[BrianL99]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344521178' post='5436436']
Thanks for all the info. I had not thought of the fact that any set of persimmons clubs that I might buy would, in all likelihood, have already been reworked and/or refinished in some way or another. I would make every attempt to keep as close to the original design and intent as possible. With a somewhat limited manufactured specifications available I can only rely on information that is presented to me here. Charley's Loft, Length and Lie information from his uncle's spec books is a great start. Also his swing weight info of D2 for a driver is equally important.

Regarding the swing weight issue, perhaps I misspoke when I mentioned re-shafting with a "modern" shaft. I should have said a "newer" shaft, even if that might be something from the 80's or 90's. I believe that a heavier shaft would maintain a lower swing weight and still maintain the 43" general length. The swing of any individual can and will have a profound effect on the performance of any club, new, old, or older.

Based on the current information supplied, it would look like buying a set and then doing my best to do what is necessary to restore or maintain the original design is about the best I can do. Whatever the bulge and roll happen to be will be what it is.

I saw a set of JN VIP's on ebay, but they had a grey face implants that looked like polyurethane. Not very appealing.
A set of 693T's looked to be closer to the originals, even if refinished.

Any and all information I can be given will continue to guide my decision and or subsequent actions. It seems that quite of few guys here own several different sets, perhaps because of the "feel" issue. I do not know and perhaps will have to go the same route until I find a set that I have a better feel for and like.

Another issue that I have noted is "Block" versus Laminated". Is there any specific year and/or model when Mac went from one to the other?

Thanks
Mike
[/quote]

I think MacGregor made laminate heads, back when the started making clubs ... I know they made them in the late 1930's.

Don't get too hung up about "swingweight", it's red herring in my opinion. I don't have a club in my bag, that swings under D5 and my Wedges are in the E's. Besides, you can always counter-weight them to swing at whatever Swingweight you want.

[baccarat]

I know that "pure" swing weight can be misleading. After checking my current 3 sets of clubs, I found that the swing weights were somewhat all over the spectrum. Of my 5 drivers, they ranged from D-1 to D6+. I prefer a somewhat heavy club head so that I can feel the head open on take away and reverse on the down swing. Otherwise I tend to lock up my wrists and leave the club face open. It is a major issue with light headed clubs, woods or irons. That D-6+ is a Titleist 975R. The only reason I bought it was because the head size was smaller and I prefer that. The newer 460cc heads are Soo large and forgiving that it de-emphasizes the need for a good swing and sound fundamentals. In the long run, this ends up effecting all the rest of your clubs in the bag. At least it seems to be the case for me.

I am relieved to read your comment on block versus laminate. At least now I know that I need not be overly considered about that issue.

Thanks and I appreciate the education.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344537902' post='5438324']
I know that "pure" swing weight can be misleading. After checking my current 3 sets of clubs, I found that the swing weights were somewhat all over the spectrum. Of my 5 drivers, they ranged from D-1 to D6+. I prefer a somewhat heavy club head so that I can feel the head open on take away and reverse on the down swing. Otherwise I tend to lock up my wrists and leave the club face open. It is a major issue with light headed clubs, woods or irons. That D-6+ is a Titleist 975R. The only reason I bought it was because the head size was smaller and I prefer that. The newer 460cc heads are Soo large and forgiving that it de-emphasizes the need for a good swing and sound fundamentals. In the long run, this ends up effecting all the rest of your clubs in the bag. At least it seems to be the case for me.

I am relieved to read your comment on block versus laminate. At least now I know that I need not be overly considered about that issue.

Thanks and I appreciate the education.
[/quote]


i am pretty sure though not positive, that MacGregor did not make pro line clubs using laminated heads in the fifties and sixties

CHARLEY PENNA







Charley Penna

[BrianL99]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1344547306' post='5439462']
[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344537902' post='5438324']
I know that "pure" swing weight can be misleading. After checking my current 3 sets of clubs, I found that the swing weights were somewhat all over the spectrum. Of my 5 drivers, they ranged from D-1 to D6+. I prefer a somewhat heavy club head so that I can feel the head open on take away and reverse on the down swing. Otherwise I tend to lock up my wrists and leave the club face open. It is a major issue with light headed clubs, woods or irons. That D-6+ is a Titleist 975R. The only reason I bought it was because the head size was smaller and I prefer that. The newer 460cc heads are Soo large and forgiving that it de-emphasizes the need for a good swing and sound fundamentals. In the long run, this ends up effecting all the rest of your clubs in the bag. At least it seems to be the case for me.

I am relieved to read your comment on block versus laminate. At least now I know that I need not be overly considered about that issue.

Thanks and I appreciate the education.
[/quote]


i am pretty sure though not positive, that MacGregor did not make pro line clubs using laminated heads in the fifties and sixties

CHARLEY PENNA



Charley Penna
[/quote]

If they did, I never saw them. They did make some Ben Hogan woods in the late 30's that were laminated, but I don't think they were considered "pro line".

[baccarat]

When you state "pro line", what are you referencing? Any specific models?

Right now, I am looking at the following models: Tourney, Nicklaus VIPs, Toney Penna FLEX?, BT2W Velocitized, RT2W Eye-O-Matic 60 and 693T.

Any suggestion on which would be the best choice and/or better choice would be helpful. The cost issue is not totally of importance, but they range from $80 to $229 for a 4 club set. Not necessarily number matched.

Mike

[BrianL99]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344549614' post='5439756']
When you state "pro line", what are you referencing? Any specific models?

Right now, I am looking at the following models: Tourney, Nicklaus VIPs, Toney Penna FLEX?, BT2W Velocitized, RT2W Eye-O-Matic 60 and 693T.

Any suggestion on which would be the best choice and/or better choice would be helpful. The cost issue is not totally of importance, but they range from $80 to $229 for a 4 club set. Not necessarily number matched.

Mike
[/quote]

In my opinion, the "coolest" MacGregor Drivers, are the "keyhole inserts". Many of the keyhole insert models were "blonde" and they're of a more recent vintage.

When the value of MacGregor woods went crazy in the early 80's, the Keyhole Drivers were fairly new and not as highly valued as the 693, 945, M85, M43 models ... therefore, there were almost no "fakes" and you can still find some 100% originals around. They also had fairly modern shafts and are probably playable in original condition.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[baccarat]

Based on reading some of the other forum threads and personal opinion, I realize and accept the fact that I will probably lose some distance. Right now I normally run out to about 235/240. But a loss of 15 or 20 would not upset me. I have already done that by switching back to my Titleist Accu-Flo (circa 81/82) irons from my Calloway X-Pro's. I lost about 1 club in that change. At the same time, I moved up 1 tee box to take pressure off of my Tee shot and not feel like I had to constantly hit something 250+. I have quite all competitive play and simply want to enjoy the game, the surroundings and the day. Golf, as an amateur, should be enjoyed and not made to feel like it is a chore.

I have seen the "Keyhole's" but only in individual clubs and not any in set groups. I fear that by buying singles, the likelihood of obtaining a solid set would be diminished. The only model that I recognize in your note is the 693, which I understand to be the successor to the Tommy Armour. Unless the other 3 have some other given name, I do not recognize them. I know that the VIP was a Toney Penna design and was carried on under the Jack Nicklaus name.

As you may have noted, I can be a tad wordy when I write. My apologies and bear with me.

Thanks

[BrianL99]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344558489' post='5440694']
Based on reading some of the other forum threads and personal opinion, I realize and accept the fact that I will probably lose some distance. Right now I normally run out to about 235/240. But a loss of 15 or 20 would not upset me. I have already done that by switching back to my Titleist Accu-Flo (circa 81/82) irons from my Calloway X-Pro's. I lost about 1 club in that change. At the same time, I moved up 1 tee box to take pressure off of my Tee shot and not feel like I had to constantly hit something 250+. I have quite all competitive play and simply want to enjoy the game, the surroundings and the day. Golf, as an amateur, should be enjoyed and not made to feel like it is a chore.

I have seen the "Keyhole's" but only in individual clubs and not any in set groups. I fear that by buying singles, the likelihood of obtaining a solid set would be diminished. The only model that I recognize in your note is the 693, which I understand to be the successor to the Tommy Armour. Unless the other 3 have some other given name, I do not recognize them. I know that the VIP was a Toney Penna design and was carried on under the Jack Nicklaus name.

As you may have noted, I can be a tad wordy when I write. My apologies and bear with me.

Thanks
[/quote]

In my opinion, there's really no such thing as a "set". They may have similar characteristics and markings, but the clubs were all hand-crafted, so they're all different. You really need to hit each one, until you find what you're looking for. Woods in those days, served a different function than they do today ... you needed to "work the ball". EVERY shot was going to spin left or right, so you needed to find the club (& swing), that gave you a consistent flight. It obviously wasn't only the "club", but it was a factor.

Here's my take on the various possibilities ... & Driver ONLY ... the other woods are only an after-thought, as they are today (until RocketBalz)

The 693/653 or anything else prior to the 60's, is obsolete, difficult to hit, lower lofted and not worth tracking down.

The M85/M43/945 are the best looking and most "classic" of the MacGregor Driver history. EVERYONE who was anyone, played a 945 back in the 70's. The M85's & M43's have more rounded heads and I think are better looking. Major difference between the M85 series & the M43 Series, is the 43's had an Eye-O-Matic insert (red/white) and the M85/75/65 had a red fiber insert. M85/75/65 are basically the same, other than original shaft stiffness and as the shafts got softer, the face got shallower. M43/33/23, same thing. Anything with a "T" in the model #, just denoted a "cord grip".

If I wanted a Driver to play today with today's balls ... I'd find a blonde, keyhole driver. Similar shape to the M85/M43, cool looking insert, traditional face design and size.

I wouldn't touch the Aluminum bullseye insert, never liked them.

[baccarat]

Brian

Thanks for the continuing education.

I have to look more closely at the Eye-O-Matics and the keyhole models. I will also take your advice on simply looking for single clubs and build my own "set" that feels good and works well.

One of the ones I found was a Tourney RT2W Eye-O-Matic 60. I saw no M number shown on the clubhead. Another was a BT2W. Without being very knowledgeable, but realizing that any refinishing might have removed some stampings on the head itself, could these be of the M85's or M43's that you recommend?

Regarding the Aluminum Insert. I would whole heartedly agree. I have been in the Metal business for 46 years and know what happens to aluminum over time. Regardless of what alloy used, aluminum age hardens. It is simply a part of it's nature.

Thanks for your continued patience.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344565124' post='5441436']
Brian

Thanks for the continuing education.

One of the ones I found was a Tourney RT2W Eye-O-Matic 60. I saw no M number shown on the clubhead. Another was a BT2W. Without being very knowledgeable, but realizing that any refinishing might have removed some stampings on the head itself, could these be of the M85's or M43's that you recommend?

Thanks for your continued patience.
[/quote]

The RT2W & BT2W are both the same clubs, with different colors/grips. They belong to the PT Series and they are not "Eye-O-Matics", they're "Velocitized" ... in many people's mind, the coolest MacGregor Insert.

The RT2W denotes a "Rosewood" finish on a PT Driver, the BT denotes a "molded rubber grip" on a PT Driver (Leather was standard on PT's). The PT Series have (2) different style heads. The PT's have a 69 type head, which is basically the same as a 693 ... deep face. The BT's & RT' have a "40 series" head, with is much more similar to the M85/M43 heads ... much more contemporary looking and shallower.

All the PT Series clubs came with Pro-Pel Action shafts ... awful shafts in my opinion.

[baccarat]

Thanks Brian

I am not one to jump into things and have been reading a lot of the other forums on the topic. But, I get the sense that until I get something, I will have limited ability to judge for myself what will work for me. As a result, I bought a 4 club set of BT2Ws this am. For $80, it is a small investment. I am also looking at a set of DX2Ws. They have the Keyhole inserts. Does that equate correctly? If so I may also buy them and then have some comparisons to look at.

As far as shafts are concerned, if I like the shafts, fine, if I don't, then I can look at re-shafting. In my opinion, grips are such a personal thing that re-gripping will be necessary in any event. I have always loved leather grips, but for daily play I have gone to the Golf Pride "Tour Wrap" mid-size. They feel pretty good and hold up well. I will decide that issue at the appropriate time and as needed.

Your educational help is greatly appreciated.

[xgolfx]

[attachment=1298306:Image (42).jpg][quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1344595664' post='5442742']
[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344565124' post='5441436']
Brian

Thanks for the continuing education.

One of the ones I found was a Tourney RT2W Eye-O-Matic 60. I saw no M number shown on the clubhead. Another was a BT2W. Without being very knowledgeable, but realizing that any refinishing might have removed some stampings on the head itself, could these be of the M85's or M43's that you recommend?

Thanks for your continued patience.
[/quote]

The RT2W & BT2W are both the same clubs, with different colors/grips. They belong to the PT Series and they are not "Eye-O-Matics", they're "Velocitized" ... in many people's mind, the coolest MacGregor Insert.

The RT2W denotes a "Rosewood" finish on a PT Driver, the BT denotes a "molded rubber grip" on a PT Driver (Leather was standard on PT's). The PT Series have (2) different style heads. The PT's have a 69 type head, which is basically the same as a 693 ... deep face. The BT's & RT' have a "40 series" head, with is much more similar to the M85/M43 heads ... much more contemporary looking and shallower.

All the PT Series clubs came with Pro-Pel Action shafts ... awful shafts in my opinion.
[/quote]


do u mean like these>

CHARLEY PENNA

[xgolfx]

or these? both sets were never touched. orig grips

1,2 and 4

1963 m5w gunstock walnut finish orig twine tourney action 3 shafts ok9478a stamp on all necks 1,3,4

[BrianL99]

Wow, they do look original ! I don't think I've ever seen that model ... the red/white Keysite insert was a rarity ... I've only seen it on women's clubs.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1344630189' post='5446372']
Wow, they do look original ! I don't think I've ever seen that model ... the red/white Keysite insert was a rarity ... I've only seen it on women's clubs.
[/quote]

That is a set of women's club out of the catalog. The black set was my dad's (and my) specs

CHARLEY PENNA

[baccarat]

The ladies clubs look pretty good for there age and obvious use. The "Charley Penna" VIPs are spectacular.

The set that I am looking have "DX" on the top and DX2W on the toe of the sole and have the red insert with a white Keysite. The 1, 3, 4 are all the DX2Ws with a 5 wood as a "through in". The 5 wood has a MT Tourney on the top in block letters and TW9 on the toe of the sole also in block letters. They all look shallow, closer to the picture of the ladies clubs .

[xgolfx]

The DX line was designed to help the average country club player. They were more shallow and lofted than the clubs for tour players, usually with softer shafts

CHARLEY PENNA

[baccarat]

Thanks so much Charley

They sound like something that I should perhaps pursue. I would probably describe myself as a "country club" player. My index runs from a low of 8+ to an 11+. I quit playing competitive golf at my current club as of this year and now simply play for the enjoyment of it and the day.

Whether you or any of the other guys here are interested, I just spotted a Mac Toney Penna TP85 WW on ebay. It looks really nice, but probably redone in some nature. The shaft and Grip are definitely newer. The shaft is a TT Dynamic Gold S400 with a Golf Pride grip. You are probably not all that crazy about it, but if anybody else is, here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toney-Penna-TP85-Oil-Hardened-1-Wood-Driver-True-Temper-Dynamic-Gold-S400-VG-/290755481549?_trksid=p4012.m2036&_trkparms=aid%3D333005%26algo%3DRIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D25%26meid%3D1240540780586959938%26pid%3D100031%26prg%3D1019%26rk%3D7%26#ht_4075wt_983

Well, that didn't work as well as I had hoped. I am not sure exactly how to do the link copy/paste very well. But I am sure anybody can and will figure this out. It is an "Up for Bid" item. About 19 hours left on the auction. The asking bid is an unbelievable $0.99 and there are no bids as of this time. Then again, for all I know it could be a fake or a knockoff. You would know better than I.

Any info you could give me on the BT2Ws I mentioned in post #21 that I bought? Your input and insight is always appreciated.

[baccarat]

I guess the link did work out. It looked weird when I originally pasted it.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1344652899' post='5448170']
Thanks so much Charley

They sound like something that I should perhaps pursue. I would probably describe myself as a "country club" player. My index runs from a low of 8+ to an 11+. I quit playing competitive golf at my current club as of this year and now simply play for the enjoyment of it and the day.

Whether you or any of the other guys here are interested, I just spotted a Mac Toney Penna TP85 WW on ebay. It looks really nice, but probably redone in some nature. The shaft and Grip are definitely newer. The shaft is a TT Dynamic Gold S400 with a Golf Pride grip. You are probably not all that crazy about it, but if anybody else is, here is the link.

[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toney-Penna-TP85-Oil-Hardened-1-Wood-Driver-True-Temper-Dynamic-Gold-S400-VG-/290755481549?_trksid=p4012.m2036&_trkparms=aid%3D333005%26algo%3DRIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D25%26meid%3D1240540780586959938%26pid%3D100031%26prg%3D1019%26rk%3D7%26#ht_4075wt_983"]http://www.ebay.com/...&#ht_4075wt_983[/url]

Well, that didn't work as well as I had hoped. I am not sure exactly how to do the link copy/paste very well. But I am sure anybody can and will figure this out. It is an "Up for Bid" item. About 19 hours left on the auction. The asking bid is an unbelievable $0.99 and there are no bids as of this time. Then again, for all I know it could be a fake or a knockoff. You would know better than I.

Any info you could give me on the BT2Ws I mentioned in post #21 that I bought? Your input and insight is always appreciated.
[/quote]

for a buck,ok. that is not the original insert

Charley Penna