Persimmons Lofts

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That is why I referred the link to you. You are an authority.

I had no interest, but thought perhaps someone else might have.

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Well, after making a bit of a plunge, I just received the Mac set of DX2Ws - 1, 3, 4 yesterday. It also had a 5w MT TW9 as an addition. They all look really nice. The DX2Ws all have "Tourney Action 2" shafts, narrow band, clear label, starting @ 43" and progressing shorter appropriately. The 1, 4 and 5 have definitely been refinished. The 3 has also been refinished, but that must have been a few years ago. It is not as glossy and shows very minor use. They are not a set IMO because the wood colors are all of a slight different shade. Overall, I still like them and plan on starting to work with them this weekend. As I mentioned, I am going full time oldies in my game.

One significant issue that did come up is regarding the add in 5w. It is apparent that the shaft seems wrong. It is a "Tourney Action 1", wide band, Black label, but the issue is length. It is a driver length of 43". I have not checked any of the swing weights yet, and have not swung them for feel. It may feel just fine, but if not, I have a dilemma. I fear that if I would shorten it, it would change the flex from a 1, stiff, to something like an X stiff. If my assumption is correct, shortening the shaft increases the relative flex. For practical reasons, the easiest shortening solution would be to cut the butt and re-grip it. I may have to take them to a club-maker and have them frequency tested. I am not sure whether frequency testing would actually tell me the flex or tell me the "kick" point or both.

If anybody has any information that can assist me on this issue, I would appreciate it.

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I forgot to ask in my last post if anyone knows what year(s) these models where made.

Also, I was wondering if anyone knows any info on a set of Titleist (sorry) Accu-Flo Irons. They were my first actually owned irons and I still have them, like them and have put them back in the bag. I know they were made in 81/82, but do not know exactly what style they would be classified as. I know they are not blades. They have very large soles, thus creating very high trajectory. I also believe that, in all likelihood, they are investment cast. Any info would be great.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1345043364' post='5476162']I fear that if I would shorten it, it would change the flex from a 1, stiff, to something like an X stiff. If my assumption is correct, shortening the shaft increases the relative flex.
[/quote]

Just wanted to speak to this particular point.

Particularly when you're dealing with steel, and even more so with Dynamic shafts, trimming from the butt end of the club doesn't affect the flex. You'll make the frequency higher, but frequency by itself isn't flex, it's frequency at a given length. Frequency slope shows a given flex's frequency decreasing as length increases, and increasing as length decreases.

If you cut from the butt end and add weight to bring the swingweight back up, you'll have softened the flex of the shaft. We're only talking 3 cpm per half inch, so depending on how much you're trimming, you may not notice a thing.

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NRJyzr

Thanks for the info. Currently that club is 43-1/4" with a swingweight of D2.

I would be considering shortening it by about 2" to 41" which is closer to a correct length when compared to the 1, 3, 4 woods in that set. IMO that would potentially create a radical change in flex.

It would also drop the swingweight quite a bit, but I can add head weight as necessary to bring it back up to a better position and feel.

Based on your analysis of 2 cpm per half inch, 2" would change it by about 12 cpm. Would that be noticeable and detrimental?

When I was 50yo, I swung Xstiff, later in my 50's I went to stiff. At 60 I realized that in order to get the best performance out of the stiff shafts I had to virtually come out of my shoes. I have now moved to regular flex so that I can swing smoother and more consistently throughout a round.

[NRJyzr]

Always glad to help a brother out.

Those 12 cpm are a bit more than a full flex, generally speaking. If the shaft was too stiff as it is, it could make it more playable for you. If it's just right now, I'd guess it could be too soft after cutting/weighting.

[xgolfx]

Unless the rules of physics have changed, I do not agree with your theory

CHARLEY PENNA

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1346196116' post='5551467']
Unless the rules of physics have changed, I do not agree with your theory

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Assuming you're referring to me? Curious as to your thinking...

Trimming from the butt end increases the frequency, but flex is frequency at a given length, and butt cutting Dynamic shafts shows the frequency following the slope. Adding weight to the head, such as one would do to bring the swingweight back up, will soften the flex further on a 1 sw pt to 1 cpm scale.

Just wondering what you're disagreeing with.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1346197980' post='5551625']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1346196116' post='5551467']
Unless the rules of physics have changed, I do not agree with your theory

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Assuming you're referring to me? Curious as to your thinking...

Trimming from the butt end increases the frequency, but flex is frequency at a given length, and butt cutting Dynamic shafts shows the frequency following the slope. Adding weight to the head, such as one would do to bring the swingweight back up, will soften the flex further on a 1 sw pt to 1 cpm scale.

Just wondering what you're disagreeing with.
[/quote]

In order for you to "bring the swing weight back up". You must add weight to the head. My question is. WHERE. Do you add the weight to the back , sole, toeside or heel side of a persimmon head? Will you weaken the head of a half century old piece of wood enough to assure it to break? Do not forget that the neck of an old wood is pretty fragile. If you try to make it strong artificially, you will most
Likely change the face progression, distorting the loft and lie. That is my arguement against making the persimmon clubs nice and shiny. I have over fifty persimmon untouched ( many never struck)Toney Penna and MacGregor drivers in great condition. I would not know WHERE to put the weight back if the shafts were changed. if you do,I would like to hear where you learned .

CHARLEY PENNA

CHARLEY PENNA

[NRJyzr]

My usual weight method is lead tape.

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want to try adding 12 swingweight points to a clubhead. It's unwieldly no matter how you try add it. I was speaking more to the theory.

Probably should have said that earlier.

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Charley: I know that you are more of a purist and I respect that. First, let me say that I would have to swing this club before any absolute decision is considered. At this point, for all I know, I make like it the way it is. However, it is an "off" model to the other three which are DX2Ws. The 43-1/4" length is, by comparison, out of line with them. This 5w is a Tourney MT, TW9. IMO some-one has already re-shafted it. The shaft is a Tourney Action 1, which may or may not be the correct shaft for this club. Apparently and for whatever reason, they put a driver length shaft in as a replacement. Perhaps I would simply sell it as is and find a DX2W 5w of the correct length to take this one's place. I just got these a couple of weeks ago and have not swung them yet. Perhaps I may not even need a 5w. The DX2Ws are a 1, 3, 4.

I have been playing a set of BT2Ws (1,2,3,4) and they all have milled holes in the back of the heads where lead weight is located. Again, I do not know if this is "normal" or not, but that is the way they are, and they feel just fine. I am no expert on these issues and that is why I am here and trying to learn from those who know. With these clubs I seem to have a good transition from the 4w to a 5 iron. I am only carrying 12 clubs in the bag and good easily add a 3 and 4 iron.

My original question was meant to learn my options and the consequences to them, not to bastardize a good piece of wood.

NR: I am a bit confused by the difference in your terminology of "cpm" versus "swingweight" Does 1 cpm translate to 1 swingweight? If so then this would indeed be a fruitless idea and I might be better served by swapping out the entire shaft to the original correct one if this one is indeed incorrect. Charley can shed light on the originality factor. Softening the flex would not bother me. Lightening the swingweight probably would. The only real way that I could see to test the swingweight change would be to take a "trash" club and hack off 2" and then see what the change is. Most of my current clubs, both newer and old, range from D-2 to D-4.5, with a couple of sand wedges that near D-6. I like the feel of the head weight that helps me to feel the head open on take-away and close on the forward. I have worked with metal for over 45 years and I just do not feel anything when the head is overly light. The exception is my putters that I have all milled to C-9 or D-0 after finding a wonderful Otey Crisman that I love and putt well with that is a C-9. Although I cannot really feel the 1 weight difference, I know it is there based on results. C-9 for fast greens and D-0 for slow greens. I can maintain the same swing stroke and get just that little bit more roll out of the D-0 when needed. Sometimes I'll carry both severe up or down hill putts.

I hope I am not and did not create any friction here. I am simply trying to learn.

Bac

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1346214380' post='5553071']
NR: I am a bit confused by the difference in your terminology of "cpm" versus "swingweight" Does 1 cpm translate to 1 swingweight?
[/quote]

When you change swingweight by adding or subtracting weight at the clubhead, each point of swingweight affects the frequency of the club by 1 cpm. Increase swingweight by one point, you decrease frequency by one point, and vice versa. That's where "1 swingweight point = 1 cpm" comes from.

If you change swingweight by adding or subtracting weight at the grip end, the above does not apply.

Effect of length changes on swingweight... generally speaking, the rule of thumb is 6 points per inch, though it can vary with some shafts (usually graphite). So making a club shorter by 2" will reduce the swingweight by 12 points. In order to bring the swingweight back up, you'd be looking at something around 22 grams (used a DSFI formula on grams per swingweight point at given lengths for that calculation). That's a lot of weight to add to a clubhead.

As for friction, none felt here.

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If I understand you correctly, by shortening the club from the grip end I may only reduce the swingweight 2 or so. But in order to bring the swingweight back up to "original" I would have to add 22 grams to the head?

If that is correct, then that would be out of line for any consideration. That would lend me to think that perhaps my best option here would be to sell this club, with full disclosure, and search for a DX2W 5 wood of the correct specifications to replace it.

Upon review of these last few posts, I think Charley's comments may have been directed more at me than you. I believe that his concern was in my commentary of adding weight to the clubhead and how I might go about doing it. He is correct in that concern. Obviously the neck is untouchable as is the top and sole. That only leave the toe and back. For me, the toe is off limits and therefore leaves only the back. Even then, I am not sure I would want to mess with it.

After thinking, an occurrence that happens occasionally, on this club, it may be that some-one put this shaft length in to act as what would be a modern hybrid. Thereby maintaining his shaft length increments throughout his set. Just my opinion.

Thanks for your input and if I am wrong in my analysis of your explanation please correct me.

Charley: Did any of the old persimmon woods have weighting "systems" as I mentioned in reference to my BT2W set of woods, or have they in fact been bastardized already. As gamers it would not overtly bother me, but as showers it would be a different matter. I am not a collector and will only be playing any of the clubs I acquire. Trial and error can only be my testing ground to find a set of woods and irons that I feel good with and play well.

Thanks
Bac

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1346250991' post='5554507']
If I understand you correctly, by shortening the club from the grip end I may only reduce the swingweight 2 or so. But in order to bring the swingweight back up to "original" I would have to add 22 grams to the head?
[/quote]

For every inch you cut from the butt end, you will be reducing swingweight by about 6 points. So 2" = 12 pts of swingweight.

If you cut it that much, and want the swingweight returned to its prior state, that's where the 22 grams number comes in.

Isn't this fun? LOL

[xgolfx]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1346251471' post='5554555']
[quote name='baccarat' timestamp='1346250991' post='5554507']
If I understand you correctly, by shortening the club from the grip end I may only reduce the swingweight 2 or so. But in order to bring the swingweight back up to "original" I would have to add 22 grams to the head?
[/quote]

For every inch you cut from the butt end, you will be reducing swingweight by about 6 points. So 2" = 12 pts of swingweight.

If you cut it that much, and want the swingweight returned to its prior state, that's where the 22 grams number comes in.

Isn't this fun? LOL
[/quote]

if you are fortunate enough to acquire a persimmon club unaltered, my advice would be to play it without alteration. Bear in mind, a leather grip is a strip of leather. A rubber grip weighs at least twice as much as leather. Would you presume that the swingweight change would be large? As to the system for weighting persimmon heads-
First of all, if you had the best block, you would need no added weight. I have drivers with a 3 inch head depth which have no lead because the block is super solid and the aluminum plate was enough. fairway woods usually require weight. Brass plates were used. The thickness of the plate varied with the weight required. You could also control the weight with the screws. You could put 6 in the face and five in the sole plate, brass or aluminum. The face could also be used, metal or plastic.

CHARLEY PENNA

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NR: Then I do indeed understand your cpm versus sw issue and cannot justify attempting to add that much weight to the head.

Charley: I had not thought of the alternatives you mentioned. Insert, screws, soleplates, etc.. Being most recently reverting back to persimmons from newer metal, all my thoughts have been of modern ideas, lead, where ever I wanted and needed.

The head on this TW9 appears unaltered although refinished. The serial nrs are missing on the neck which is where I determine the refinish clue. It has a 5 screw Cyclotic (?) insert, a 4 screw brass sole, and no shaft screw in the base. Pictures would probably be more informative to you, but I haven't quite figured out the process to do that and truthfully haven't tried yet. It has a Grip Rite Swing Rite grip with a "reminder" rib.

If you would rather see the pictures, let me know and I will do what is necessary to accomplish the task.
I am here to learn.

NR: I do not know about all the fun, but some simple, seemingly to me, questions can get quite complicated in their answers.

Bac

[NRJyzr]

Truly, the fun part is playing the persimmon clubs. I haven't played one of the drivers in a few years, kind of miss them. Used to use the Ram persimmon 3 wood as a companion to my Ti driver thru last year....

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I just started playing all moldy oldies myself a few weeks ago when I bought the Mac BT2Ws and the DX2Ws, which is when I acquired this TW9 5w as a through in. I have always had my Titleist Accu Flo irons since I started playing in the early 80s. A small town golf store gave them to me to try out and then would never let me pay him for them.

I love playing the oldies. I think that the newer clubs, especially the huge drivers, let you get sloppy with your swing and that sloppiness then transfers to all the rest of your clubs and hurts you in the scoring department. I have read on some other thread posts here that there is some agreement to this theory. So, I can not take credit for originality, but I only thought about this this season and before I found this forum site. In reading up on a lot of these threads, I found the same thoughts from over 2 years ago being mentioned.

This winter I plan on ebaying all my current stock of newer stuff. I do not have a wide array of golfing friends and play alone more times than not, so I do not have to deal with the snubbing of most others. At the range most simply look and then ask what it the world that little thing is and how do you hit the ball with it. That is usually followed by a nice 220 with a little turn over draw, and that sweet sound of center contact. I can't draw the big head Ti's, and if it happens, it is either a pull draw or, a "How did I do that?' kind of thing. The smooth swing and tempo necessary is exactly suited to my idea of an enjoyable round of golf. Last Saturday I dropped a spectacular 4w 10 ft from the pin on a 170 yd par 3 over a pond and bunker. The "youngster" in the group behind just drop theirs jaws when I twirled that wood and they saw the head. An awesome feeling. All I needed was the cheering greenside crowds to give me goose bumps.

I enjoy reading all the info here as well as the conversations.

Bac