Slope and course ratings

[mosesgolf]

What would be your classification of a difficult course. I'm not that keen on how this stuff really works other than knowing that any course with a slope rating of 140 or higher is pretty tough.

 

What is your opinion on a 75.2 146 slope? I've only played this course from the blues but someone insisted we play from the tips and it was a completely different course from back there. Had a great time and used alot of 5-6 irons(breezy day) for approach shots even after good drives which is something that doesn't occur too much for me from the blues. Score didn't change either from the ones I shoot from the blues. Maybe I'm not as bad as I thought I was. :D This course does play pretty tough overall. Woodranch in Simi Valley, Ca.

[+Church]

Any course with a rating over par is tough(er) in my opinion. In my area we have SO many courses to choose from and only a few have a rating over par.

[Johnny Biarritz]

First, a little education with Slope. The Slope Rating of a course is a calculated number that equals (Bogey Course Rating minus Scratch Course Rating) multiplied by 5.381, then rounded. 155 is as high a slope as the USGA will issue in a course rating, though it can calculate out higher than that.

As far was what number makes a course difficult? Either one. Yes, a course with Slope of 140 is difficult. 135 is probably difficult as well. And any course with a Course Rating of more than a shot or two over par is difficult.

[mattsam]

Anything over 139 is very difficult IMO.

[DCSerafin]

I would agree with +Church that anything Rating above par makes it a difficult track. I would equat that to any slope above 130.

[teejaywhy]

Course rating is an indication of difficulty to the scratch golfer.
Slope rating is an indication of difficulty to the bogey golfer as compared to a scratch player.

You might think that they go hand-in-hand, but not necessarily.

Course rating is mostly based on LENGTH, with a few adjustments for obstacles. Slope factors in obstacles that affect the bogey golfer who tends to hit less far and more off-line, things like water/OB on the right, narrow driving areas, surrounding hazards, etc.

The example given: 75.2/146 is obviously difficult for both the skilled and not so skilled. And you will also find courses with low numbers for both rating and slope, and indication that it's a generally easy course for all.

But sometimes you might see a course rating less than par coupled with a high slope rating. In other words a big differential between rating and slope. That is an indication that the course has hazards and difficulties that don't affect the scratch golfer as much as they do the bogey golfer. In other words, with skill level factored in, the course is MORE difficult for the bogey golfer.

[crapula]

I ignore both rating and slope, it tells me nothing.

The toughest course I play is DeBell in Burbank; Par 71, 5600 yards, 68.3 rating, 120 slope... never shot under 85 there. (played at least 15 rounds there).

Just played Barona Creek in San Diego; Par 72, 7088 yards, 75 rating, 144 slope... shot an 82. (played it twice).

[cb24]

[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1351212243' post='5847235']
I ignore both rating and slope, it tells me nothing.

The toughest course I play is DeBell in Burbank; Par 71, 5600 yards, 68.3 rating, 120 slope... never shot under 85 there. (played at least 15 rounds there).

Just played Barona Creek in San Diego; Par 72, 7088 yards, 75 rating, 144 slope... shot an 82. (played it twice).
[/quote]

some courses just tougher to play than others based on your strengths and weaknesses. If you have trouble keeping it straight, that Debell course looks like it would be tough (only seen pics never played) where as Barona, if distance isnt a problem then that makes that course much easier, especially distance off the tee. Barona looks like it would be a little easier to keep in play but tougher obstacles, but if that doesnt bother you then would be much easier.

[BuckeyePaul01]

My home course is rated 75.1CR 141slope. To me slope isn't very relevant.............The true measure of a golf course is the course rating.

IE....I've seen short pitch-n-putt courses with slopes in the 130s. Playing iron off the tee and wedging into the greens is no challenge....

[Par-A-Medic]

I think the Usga has a pretty good system. If you keep a accurate handicap you can just about bet the farm on how you will play according to the cr and slope. The downside of the way it works is playing someone who plays forward tees. I play with a large lunch group with a lot of 65n ups. You take a 70 year old that shoots his age everyday at my course and he is a 5 handicap. I play from the tips, and because of the increase I get more "credit". My cap is 8 and I am flat killing it if I can shoot 78 more than 2x a revision.

[Par-A-Medic]

I'm gonna need more than 3 strokes. I stand no chance in a net tournament

[CowtownTexas]

Slope can be deceptive. A course here in town is very short and tight and lined with streets that are OB. It's very tough for higher-handicapped players because they are likely to hit at least a ball or two OB every round.

My home course has a lower slope than that course, but the course rating is much more difficult. From the back tees we have a course rating of 75.2 versus a par of 70. I don't know of another course near here with that big of a difference.

[peanutandjelly]

[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1350682082' post='5818431']
What would be your classification of a difficult course. I'm not that keen on how this stuff really works other than knowing that any course with a slope rating of 140 or higher is pretty tough.

What is your opinion on a 75.2 146 slope? I've only played this course from the blues but someone insisted we play from the tips and it was a completely different course from back there. Had a great time and used alot of 5-6 irons(breezy day) for approach shots even after good drives which is something that doesn't occur too much for me from the blues. Score didn't change either from the ones I shoot from the blues. Maybe I'm not as bad as I thought I was. This course does play pretty tough overall. Woodranch in Simi Valley, Ca.
[/quote]the course rating is what a scratch player would shoot there....(us ama champ scratch, not pga scratch)...the slope rating is how many strokes you would get to play that scratch player based on your index.

[Johnny Biarritz]

[quote name='peanutandjelly' timestamp='1352003472' post='5888707']
[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1350682082' post='5818431']
What would be your classification of a difficult course. I'm not that keen on how this stuff really works other than knowing that any course with a slope rating of 140 or higher is pretty tough.

What is your opinion on a 75.2 146 slope? I've only played this course from the blues but someone insisted we play from the tips and it was a completely different course from back there. Had a great time and used alot of 5-6 irons(breezy day) for approach shots even after good drives which is something that doesn't occur too much for me from the blues. Score didn't change either from the ones I shoot from the blues. Maybe I'm not as bad as I thought I was. This course does play pretty tough overall. Woodranch in Simi Valley, Ca.
[/quote]the course rating is what a scratch player would shoot there....(us ama champ scratch, not pga scratch)...the slope rating is how many strokes you would get to play that scratch player based on your index.
[/quote]

peanut-Wrong. Yes, the course rating is the calculated score a scratch player would shoot given a set of conditions and taking into consideration hazards and such. And "us ama champ scratch" WTF ever that means, has nothing to do with it. Go check out the USGA handicap manual. As far as slope, 100% wrong. The Slope rating is a calculation of the Bogey Course Rating minus Scratch Course rating multiplied by 5.381 for males from any given set of tees. It is NOT the number of strokes you get. Really? You really think a player will get 145 strokes over a scratch player? But whatever, carry on.

[peanutandjelly]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1352015156' post='5889013']
[quote name='peanutandjelly' timestamp='1352003472' post='5888707']
[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1350682082' post='5818431']
What would be your classification of a difficult course. I'm not that keen on how this stuff really works other than knowing that any course with a slope rating of 140 or higher is pretty tough.

What is your opinion on a 75.2 146 slope? I've only played this course from the blues but someone insisted we play from the tips and it was a completely different course from back there. Had a great time and used alot of 5-6 irons(breezy day) for approach shots even after good drives which is something that doesn't occur too much for me from the blues. Score didn't change either from the ones I shoot from the blues. Maybe I'm not as bad as I thought I was. This course does play pretty tough overall. Woodranch in Simi Valley, Ca.
[/quote]the course rating is what a scratch player would shoot there....(us ama champ scratch, not pga scratch)...the slope rating is how many strokes you would get to play that scratch player based on your index.
[/quote]

peanut-Wrong. Yes, the course rating is the calculated score a scratch player would shoot given a set of conditions and taking into consideration hazards and such. And "us ama champ scratch" WTF ever that means, has nothing to do with it. Go check out the USGA handicap manual. As far as slope, 100% wrong. The Slope rating is a calculation of the Bogey Course Rating minus Scratch Course rating multiplied by 5.381 for males from any given set of tees. It is NOT the number of strokes you get. Really? You really think a player will get 145 strokes over a scratch player? But whatever, carry on.
[/quote]I have been a hcp chair for 5 years, been certified twice....you don't know what an amat scratch player is? easy, an amat who is scratch...you give the calculation of slope but the formula is made so a 10 can play a scratch and be equal...that is why based upon your course handicap at that course, you would get that many strokes against the scratch player.....

did you think a scratch player was somebody who itched a lot? so if you are a 12.3, you would look at the courses slope chart and see that you are a 13 for example....the other guy would look and see maybe he is a 1...you get 12 strokes.....

[peanutandjelly]

[quote name='Par-A-Medic' timestamp='1351972330' post='5887119']
I think the Usga has a pretty good system. If you keep a accurate handicap you can just about bet the farm on how you will play according to the cr and slope. The downside of the way it works is playing someone who plays forward tees. I play with a large lunch group with a lot of 65n ups. You take a 70 year old that shoots his age everyday at my course and he is a 5 handicap. I play from the tips, and because of the increase I get more "credit". My cap is 8 and I am flat killing it if I can shoot 78 more than 2x a revision.
[/quote]if you are playing from a tee that has a higher course rating, you subtract the lower front tee rating from the back tee and you would get the difference....this is especially true when men are playing women since the same set of tees would have different ratings.

the difference is rounded..

[peanutandjelly]

[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1351983695' post='5887605']
Slope can be deceptive. A course here in town is very short and tight and lined with streets that are OB. It's very tough for higher-handicapped players because they are likely to hit at least a ball or two OB every round.

My home course has a lower slope than that course, but the course rating is much more difficult. From the back tees we have a course rating of 75.2 versus a par of 70. I don't know of another course near here with that big of a difference.
[/quote]I went out with a rating group and it is interesting...they go out 200 yards from the tee and look back (the average drive for men). they look at trees, hazards, water, ground slope, etc. and then look at a book and a chart to get a number.....they look at a landing area, the area around a green for deep bunkers, slope of the green, obstacles to carry, etc. each hole gets measured and when they are all done, all the numbers are added up and you get a course rating. Interestingly enough, every time they come out to our course (every four years usually), the numbers change a little bit. We have gone from 121 to 120 to 119. Probably because wind storms have taken down a bunch of trees. The course tried to get it higher by promising to build new tees but they were told, build the tees, THEN call us.

[Sean2]

I read an article in one the the golf magazines last year and the average slope is something like 113. So, yeah what you played is difficult.

[CowtownTexas]

[quote name='peanutandjelly' timestamp='1352075241' post='5891481']
[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1351983695' post='5887605']
Slope can be deceptive. A course here in town is very short and tight and lined with streets that are OB. It's very tough for higher-handicapped players because they are likely to hit at least a ball or two OB every round.

My home course has a lower slope than that course, but the course rating is much more difficult. From the back tees we have a course rating of 75.2 versus a par of 70. I don't know of another course near here with that big of a difference.
[/quote]I went out with a rating group and it is interesting...they go out 200 yards from the tee and look back (the average drive for men). they look at trees, hazards, water, ground slope, etc. and then look at a book and a chart to get a number.....they look at a landing area, the area around a green for deep bunkers, slope of the green, obstacles to carry, etc. each hole gets measured and when they are all done, all the numbers are added up and you get a course rating. Interestingly enough, every time they come out to our course (every four years usually), the numbers change a little bit. We have gone from 121 to 120 to 119. Probably because wind storms have taken down a bunch of trees. The course tried to get it higher by promising to build new tees but they were told, build the tees, THEN call us.
[/quote]

Like you, I sat on a handicap committee for a period of time and found it pretty eye-opening. I think that unless you read the USGA Handbook on Handicaps, you really can't get a full understanding of how the system works. However, I'll say that the knowledge I gained just lead me to believe the system is flawed, but that's a whole different conversation.

The course rating at my course is low because there is very little OB that is reachable and few hazards. Even then, it's still 138 from the back tees and 133 from where I typically play. Definitely a good test.

[Par-A-Medic]

[quote name='peanutandjelly' timestamp='1352074959' post='5891463']
[quote name='Par-A-Medic' timestamp='1351972330' post='5887119']
I think the Usga has a pretty good system. If you keep a accurate handicap you can just about bet the farm on how you will play according to the cr and slope. The downside of the way it works is playing someone who plays forward tees. I play with a large lunch group with a lot of 65n ups. You take a 70 year old that shoots his age everyday at my course and he is a 5 handicap. I play from the tips, and because of the increase I get more "credit". My cap is 8 and I am flat killing it if I can shoot 78 more than 2x a revision.
[/quote]if you are playing from a tee that has a higher course rating, you subtract the lower front tee rating from the back tee and you would get the difference....this is especially true when men are playing women since the same set of tees would have different ratings.

the difference is rounded..
[/quote]

+1000
Thanks for a good reply. I will use this fom now on. The old guys probably knew and just took my money!

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1352075349' post='5891503']
I read an article in one the the golf magazines last year and the average slope is something like 113.
[/quote]

Not exactly. 113 is supposed to be the slope value for a course of average difficulty.

[peanutandjelly]

[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1352124658' post='5893197']
[quote name='peanutandjelly' timestamp='1352075241' post='5891481']
[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1351983695' post='5887605']
Slope can be deceptive. A course here in town is very short and tight and lined with streets that are OB. It's very tough for higher-handicapped players because they are likely to hit at least a ball or two OB every round.

My home course has a lower slope than that course, but the course rating is much more difficult. From the back tees we have a course rating of 75.2 versus a par of 70. I don't know of another course near here with that big of a difference.
[/quote]I went out with a rating group and it is interesting...they go out 200 yards from the tee and look back (the average drive for men). they look at trees, hazards, water, ground slope, etc. and then look at a book and a chart to get a number.....they look at a landing area, the area around a green for deep bunkers, slope of the green, obstacles to carry, etc. each hole gets measured and when they are all done, all the numbers are added up and you get a course rating. Interestingly enough, every time they come out to our course (every four years usually), the numbers change a little bit. We have gone from 121 to 120 to 119. Probably because wind storms have taken down a bunch of trees. The course tried to get it higher by promising to build new tees but they were told, build the tees, THEN call us.
[/quote]

Like you, I sat on a handicap committee for a period of time and found it pretty eye-opening. I think that unless you read the USGA Handbook on Handicaps, you really can't get a full understanding of how the system works. However, I'll say that the knowledge I gained just lead me to believe the system is flawed, but that's a whole different conversation.

The course rating at my course is low because there is very little OB that is reachable and few hazards. Even then, it's still 138 from the back tees and 133 from where I typically play. Definitely a good test.
[/quote]138 is high for sure..I find that the real test of how hard a course is do I have to carry the grand canyon on some tee shots and how many balls will vanish as they roll down a steep hill into a hidden lake. The length of the hole may not be long but unless you know which side to aim at, it will kill you. We played one super up and down course in team play one year and my buddy his his shot, his partner hit his shot and they got into the cart and they see a ball rolling down the hill...they assumed it was somebody else's...turns out it was the first guys drive and it was still coming down the hill. brutal.

[mwmgolfx]

Anything over 130 is not simple. But the slope can be changed several points by the greenskeeper. Green speed is a factor, as is the length of the rough, width of fairways, difficulty of rough near greens are all simple items that a greens keeper can change quickly that will impact the slope calculations.

Slope is a rough way of comparing the relative difficulty of two courses. Unfortunately, in my opinion, there are a number of factors that can seriously impact the difficulty for some players and not others. For example, forced carries are not longer calculated the same way. And the level (slope) of greens are grossly estimated. The USGA raters will go out to 225 and check the width of the fairway at that point (that's where the average drive will end up with roll). It doesn't matter if it's impossible due to obstacles to have the ball roll out to that point. (i've attended the USGA handicap rating school and have done several courses with USGA people from Headquarters so I've seen how they work). They just measure the width at certain points and that counts as a factor.

Similarly estimates of how much the green is surrounded by bunkers, any hazards more than 40 yards from the center of the fairway are ignored in the calculations, distance of hazards from the green is a factor.

How your game fits into these will determine whether the course seems hard or easy. I've played several 135-145 courses that seemed very easy due to situations and others that are only 120 or so that I can't score on to save my sole. My game doesn't fit those courses whereas it fits some very well. And i'm sure that is true for a lot of people. (give me a course that I can hit a lot of wedges on and I'll score - as long as I don't have to hit fades.)