Why Do You Buy JDM?

[wobgon]

[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358226958' post='6230703']
You're asserting that the Ping and Callaway and TM etc that the tour pros are playing are the same thing you and I can buy at the big box store. They're not.

Buying USDM product that's as tuned and hand selected and set up custom costs as much as JDM stuff in many cases. Go on TM's website and order a RBZ Tour with exactly 8.7 degrees of loft with a 1.5 degree open face angle and a certain weight and a hand rolled high modulus carbon shaft..

Oh, you can't? Well a tour pro can. And if you could, it would cost you as much as an Epon driver. It's a fallacy that the pros play the same model club that us schmucks do. That specialized stuff costs a lot, and that's part of the cost of JDM. Have it your way...at a cost.
[/quote]
Only about 25% correct.

[chiromikey]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1358230478' post='6230887']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358226958' post='6230703']
You're asserting that the Ping and Callaway and TM etc that the tour pros are playing are the same thing you and I can buy at the big box store. They're not.

Buying USDM product that's as tuned and hand selected and set up custom costs as much as JDM stuff in many cases. Go on TM's website and order a RBZ Tour with exactly 8.7 degrees of loft with a 1.5 degree open face angle and a certain weight and a hand rolled high modulus carbon shaft..

Oh, you can't? Well a tour pro can. And if you could, it would cost you as much as an Epon driver. It's a fallacy that the pros play the same model club that us schmucks do. That specialized stuff costs a lot, and that's part of the cost of JDM. Have it your way...at a cost.
[/quote]
Only about 25% correct.
[/quote]
lol, talk about policing. is it true that you guys have big hairy feet? i never seem to be able to find a troll in real life...which is probably a good thing since i've heard warts are contagious!

[morebeerbettergolf]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1358230478' post='6230887']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358226958' post='6230703']
You're asserting that the Ping and Callaway and TM etc that the tour pros are playing are the same thing you and I can buy at the big box store. They're not.

Buying USDM product that's as tuned and hand selected and set up custom costs as much as JDM stuff in many cases. Go on TM's website and order a RBZ Tour with exactly 8.7 degrees of loft with a 1.5 degree open face angle and a certain weight and a hand rolled high modulus carbon shaft..

Oh, you can't? Well a tour pro can. And if you could, it would cost you as much as an Epon driver. It's a fallacy that the pros play the same model club that us schmucks do. That specialized stuff costs a lot, and that's part of the cost of JDM. Have it your way...at a cost.
[/quote]
Only about 25% correct.
[/quote]

Please correct me on the ~75% in which I'm wrong. I honestly want to know where I made my mistakes.

Tour issue gear can be specified more for certain attributes and costs as much as JDM stuff. Topekareal proves tour players don't play what you and I play. It costs significantly more to hand sort, Cor test, specify weight, use high end shaft, and build clubs for tour pros. The overall design is the same as off the rack but the attention to detail and the other minutiae is what makes tour issue expensive and different.

Will it make the average Joe play better? Probably not. But if weight sorting, face angle, etc is important to a tour player playing his best golf, it isn't inconceivable that it could have a positive effect on mid to low handicappers games. I personally have found that there's a large discrepancy in my ball striking based on club heft and SW. Steering away from things we know hurt our games is a good thing.

It's actually nice to be able to specify a driver head weight or iron head weights so that I can get to D4 at -1/2" length without putting 15g of weight in the hosel, changing the CG by almost 1/4".

Also the notion that most JDM iron sets cost upwards of $1500 is a myth as well. The end of December I bought a brand new set of highly regarded 2013 irons from TSG that weren't even shipping yet, 5-PW, for $1110 built and shipped from Japan to my door. That's not much if any different than Mizuno or Titleist price when you account for tax and shipping.

Sure the Epon and Honma stuff is silly expensive. But pretty much all the other 5-PW sets come in around $900-1500 for a 5-PW set of irons. The US Miura stuff is up there too. JDM Miura is middle of the pack pricewise.

[sblack5]

I own miura baby blades....... i bought them because i wanted something conforming but as minimalist as possible. They are traditional looking and felt great. I also underwent a 5 hour fitting for them that included trying a variety of lie angles, shafts, and shaft lengths and weights on a flightscope, outside on a range, and on course from a variety of lies before i was happy. They also felt super soft to me, and that was a plus.

It is hard to find somewhere to do a fitting like that with some of the usdm stuff. I came from titliest mb 710s and was considering mp69s until i found that the Miuras were less to look at when i address the ball.

All of the heads came within 1 gram of each other and all of the shafts and grips were the same before they were all assembled. I also got them moi matched and have a spec sheet that came with them so that i know they were double checked before delivery and were assembled to my exact desired specs.

NOW..... I couldnt care less about it being jdm and having gear that no one at my course does. If i would have found that it was cleveland cg16s that matched my game best and i could have gotten a detailed fitting and build experience like i did with the miuras then I'd be playing them.

As for the price point due to tolerances and attention to detail going into the price of jdm stuff......there is SOME truth to that. I personally know and hang out with my local mizuno, titleist, and nike reps, and have asked what it would cost to get everything spec'd out and exact like my miuras from each of their oem's......the consensus came back that it was the retail price plus about $70 per club for the extra attention. So if i bought some mb 712s at $1000 for 8 clubs plus asked for a spec sheet with delivery and was very specific about all of the details i would still not own my new irons for less than $1600.........which isnt far from what my miuras were

Thing is....what majority of golfers is gonna pay the extra for that when they can pay the $1000 and go have fun? Not many.....that's why those of us that are interested in jdm for whatever personal reason have to hunt them.

[NYCgolfer17]

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1358224801' post='6230509']
[quote name='NYCgolfer17' timestamp='1358221040' post='6230117']
[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1358217717' post='6229697']
[quote name='NYCgolfer17' timestamp='1358215375' post='6229381']
[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1358208705' post='6228671']
[quote name='NYCgolfer17' timestamp='1358183230' post='6225755']
Because they gave me the best numbers BY FAR as compared with the US choices.
[/quote]

Then you weren't properly fit the first time...I've owned and played Miura irons in the past....they were amazing and they did have a lot of the attributes many of you describe...they were spot on for loft, lie and length...sw was D2-D3 on every iron...they had a unique feel and I certainly understand why someone would prefer this feel...for me it came down to a measure of value per dollar spent...

Unfortunately, due to exchange rates, cost of production, etc. JDM stuff is, in many cases, in excess of of $1500 for a new set of 6 irons...You can get the same set of Mizuno irons for less than 1/2 of that...from a financial standpoint, JDM stuff is not a value based purchase...and with golf stuff, I generally go with value over vanity
[/quote]

First off, you saying "I wasn't properly fit LAST TIME" makes no sense. If you read my very simple post, it says I tested the JDM gear side by side vs. the standard OEM offerings. The JDM (Epons) gave me by far and away the best numbers besides the fact that they felt amazing. So "Last time" has no bearing on this time.

Secondly, I don't buy golf clubs based on "good value" I save that for buying stocks. If you bought golf clubs based on "value" you would never buy a new set and I have no idea what your doing on the website (let alone the JDM forum) If you can't afford the high price tag, that's one thing but I choose to spend a little more to know I'm getting the best and the trackman numbers backed it up.
[/quote]

OK...so can you define "by far"? I'm just saying that when comparing any two sets of irons...there is absolutely no way that any set, properly fit, is "by far" producing better numbers than any other set...do you really think if there were a JDM brand which was "by far" better than Ping, Callaway, etc. that Bubba, Phil, etc. wouldn't be playing them? If you were putting the same swing on both clubs, there wouldn't be a "by far" winner. Sounds like user error to me. I'm sure the EPONs felt nice...and feel is again subjective...so if you are into a 250% upcharge for feel, then more power to you...you are free to spend your $$$ as you choose...but please don't do it based on "performance" numbers which we all know would never prove your point....and don't worry, I can afford any set of clubs I want......the ability to afford a set of irons has no bearing on this conversation so sleep easy my friend
[/quote]

I wish I still had the trackman numbers but basically the Epons with the same shaft vs the comparable OEM offering, [b]it was no contest[/b]. I'm not sure why you keep referring to being "properly fit." I obv don't have a trackman in my backyard so this is at the fitting. So are you saying the fitter who fit me for the Epons has no idea what he was doing? I'm just not sure what your getting at here. It's not paying a 250% up charge when the products are not comparable.

Do you really not understand why Bubba, Phil, etc play Callaway, Ping etc? It's called $$$. The big OEM's have the budget to pay these guys to play their stuff. Epon, Miura and other JDM brands have no interest in being marketed to the masses. It would take away from the quality if they needed to produce for the mass market. Also, if you have't noticed, those guys on the PGA tour are pretty good. You could put a wood stick with a spoon tied to the end of it and they could probably break par.
[/quote]

Again, define "no contest"...what does that mean? Did the Epons hit the ball and the other clubs simply missed it altogether? You just conveniently can't find the trackman numbers....?? Were you hitting your 7 iron 220 yards? Maybe the Epons let you work the ball up, down, left, right with ease and you simply couldn't miss.....? All on a nice little simulator...

In addition, I know many people get fit on launch monitors, but the game is still played on a golf course...and if there were a club, a brand, a ball...anything, which was "no contest" better than anything else...you'd see it in the hands of many more players, professionals included - As much as some people would like to believe or try to convince themselves that a brand is somehow well beyond others, that simply isn't the case...right....Bubba only plays Ping because they pay him...got it...If Bubba couldn't get the clubs to perform, he'd last at least a couple months on tour, right?

The simple reality is, any professional can't afford to play a brand if the performance isn't absolutely 100% where they need it to be in order to compete...if you can't grasp that, then you probably believe a $2000 set of irons will hit the ball closer to the hole...as they say, a fool and his money...well, you know...
[/quote]


It was not a simulator, its was TRACKMAN outdoors.

So are you saying Rory switched to Nike because he likes the equipment better? Nothing do to with money right?

[RLL33]

It's just plain funny that trolls always get around to talking about their "values..." If they had any -- other than getting pleasure out of getting under other people's skin to irritate them -- they'd be doing something other than trolling with their time -- like maybe playing golf...?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358261114' post='6231883']
[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1358230478' post='6230887']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358226958' post='6230703']
You're asserting that the Ping and Callaway and TM etc that the tour pros are playing are the same thing you and I can buy at the big box store. They're not.

Buying USDM product that's as tuned and hand selected and set up custom costs as much as JDM stuff in many cases. Go on TM's website and order a RBZ Tour with exactly 8.7 degrees of loft with a 1.5 degree open face angle and a certain weight and a hand rolled high modulus carbon shaft..

Oh, you can't? Well a tour pro can. And if you could, it would cost you as much as an Epon driver. It's a fallacy that the pros play the same model club that us schmucks do. That specialized stuff costs a lot, and that's part of the cost of JDM. Have it your way...at a cost.
[/quote]
Only about 25% correct.
[/quote]

Please correct me on the ~75% in which I'm wrong. I honestly want to know where I made my mistakes.

Tour issue gear can be specified more for certain attributes and costs as much as JDM stuff. Topekareal proves tour players don't play what you and I play. It costs significantly more to hand sort, Cor test, specify weight, use high end shaft, and build clubs for tour pros. The overall design is the same as off the rack but the attention to detail and the other minutiae is what makes tour issue expensive and different.

Will it make the average Joe play better? Probably not. But if weight sorting, face angle, etc is important to a tour player playing his best golf, it isn't inconceivable that it could have a positive effect on mid to low handicappers games. I personally have found that there's a large discrepancy in my ball striking based on club heft and SW. Steering away from things we know hurt our games is a good thing.

It's actually nice to be able to specify a driver head weight or iron head weights so that I can get to D4 at -1/2" length without putting 15g of weight in the hosel, changing the CG by almost 1/4".

Also the notion that most JDM iron sets cost upwards of $1500 is a myth as well. The end of December I bought a brand new set of highly regarded 2013 irons from TSG that weren't even shipping yet, 5-PW, for $1110 built and shipped from Japan to my door. That's not much if any different than Mizuno or Titleist price when you account for tax and shipping.

Sure the Epon and Honma stuff is silly expensive. But pretty much all the other 5-PW sets come in around $900-1500 for a 5-PW set of irons. The US Miura stuff is up there too. JDM Miura is middle of the pack pricewise.
[/quote]
"Tour issue" stuff cost more because people wanna feel special. 90% of the equipment is the same as you buy retail. It does not cost more to produce, it cost more on the secondary market because your "not supposed to have it".

Heads aren't really that sorted. They are really just measured, with actual specs written on a sticker. Then they have a lot of these on the vans and pick from those. When the Superfast and RBZ came out they went to a local golf retailer at several tour stops to buy clubs as they ran out due to popularity. What a tour player plays is nothing a good fitter/builder can't accomplish.

With adjustable clubheads and adjustable weights/hot melt there is virtually no difference between what tour players play and you can buy retail and a good club fitter can build. Ping, Callaway, and Titleist stuff is the same as retail, excluding obvious rare exception.

[morebeerbettergolf]

Face angle adjustment is nice...as long as it doesn't screw you on the loft side. And vice versa. Adjustability has made a big impact on this but it isn't perfect. Not to mention the 7-10g of weight that gets tied up in the hosel that could be better used somewhere else. Not a bid deal but not ideal.

Most of the people buying tour issue are doing it for the status, I agree. Some are doing it because they want or need a certain set of parameters to work with on a built to meet their needs.


How much is it to get an RBZ tour with a AD DI 7X Shaft, 2* open face angle @ 8.5 actual degrees, and a 201g head weight?

My point is still that the average person can't even order this stuff from TM or Ping or Cally, and if they can, they pay $ for tour issue or for custom specs. So when someone says "USDM stuff is good enough for pros but JDM costs 250% more," I am rebutting that with the fact that the sorting process, attention to detail, bending, hot melting, adjusting, premium shaft etc. that is done for those tour players' clubs shrinks that 250% down quite a bit.

Dick's clubs vs JDM is apples to oranges. Tour issue clubs vs JDM is the appropriate "value" comparison. The premium JDM brands have the cost of customization built into the product price, USDMs don't. It leads to more sticker shock.

[Jamboy72]

It was not a simulator, its was TRACKMAN outdoors.

So are you saying Rory switched to Nike because he likes the equipment better? Nothing do to with money right?


Good...that is about the best type of fitting you can do...I would still love to see the actual numbers when comparing the different clubs...

Rory went to Nike and certainly the money was a huge part of it...that being said, if he doesn't perform the way he did with his Titleist stuff, the fallout would be tremendous. Not even Rory can afford to have equipment which is anything less than absolutely perfectly fit for him...leads me to believe, that the best of Nike, Callaway, Mizuno, TM, etc. is every bit as good (when considering performance) as the very best from Miura, Epon, etc.

[drgolfaholic]

For my brief experience with Miura, my impression is their precise iron head weight. Recently, I acquired a set of mixed MB/CB Miura LH irons. After hitting them, I decided to reshaft with KBS Tour.

On many occasions I've reshafted with KBS Tours in various iron brands; and 10 out of 10 times, I had to rely on lead/tungsten weights to balance out the swing weight. This is consistent with KBS shafts as they're butt heavy, but what I found with others (titleist, callaway, taylormade and even mizuno) there's variation of swing weight between heads in the same set. Compensation to meet standard D2 varies from 2 to 10 grams of weight tips.

With these Miuras, none of the KBS shafts were compensated with lead/tungsten. On swing weight scale, all heads came out precisely at D2.5. Not D2, not D3. 2.5.

You can say so these Miuras are built heavier so you don't need weight tips, but that's not my point. I came away impressed with the tight tolerance of their manufacturing process in the way those heads and shafts came together.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1358227522' post='6230741']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358226958' post='6230703']
You're asserting that the Ping and Callaway and TM etc that the tour pros are playing are the same thing you and I can buy at the big box store. They're not.

Buying USDM product that's as tuned and hand selected and set up custom costs as much as JDM stuff in many cases. Go on TM's website and order a RBZ Tour with exactly 8.7 degrees of loft with a 1.5 degree open face angle and a certain weight and a hand rolled high modulus carbon shaft..

Oh, you can't? Well a tour pro can. And if you could, it would cost you as much as an Epon driver. It's a fallacy that the pros play the same model club that us schmucks do. That specialized stuff costs a lot, and that's part of the cost of JDM. Have it your way...at a cost.
[/quote]

The vast majority of "tour" equipment comes off the same assembly line as the retail stuff, COR tested, selected for weight etc but no different than what you can get in the store.

Frankly titleist woods, hybrids, irons, and a lot of wedges are exactly the same as what you can buy.

Hey, I love tour issue stuff as much as the next guy, especially the 20% of the stuff that isn't released to the public, but this idea that all the tour players are gaming special gear isn't really correct.
[/quote]

For all you guys complaining about all the "trolls", why did this point get ignored? If you want to have a conversation so bad why aren't you responding to the people trying to have a conversation?

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358266178' post='6232385']
Face angle adjustment is nice...as long as it doesn't screw you on the loft side. And vice versa. Adjustability has made a big impact on this but it isn't perfect. Not to mention the 7-10g of weight that gets tied up in the hosel that could be better used somewhere else. Not a bid deal but not ideal.

Most of the people buying tour issue are doing it for the status, I agree. Some are doing it because they want or need a certain set of parameters to work with on a built to meet their needs.


How much is it to get an RBZ tour with a AD DI 7X Shaft, 2* open face angle @ 8.5 actual degrees, and a 201g head weight?

My point is still that the average person can't even order this stuff from TM or Ping or Cally, and if they can, they pay $ for tour issue or for custom specs. So when someone says "USDM stuff is good enough for pros but JDM costs 250% more," I am rebutting that with the fact that the sorting process, attention to detail, bending, hot melting, adjusting, premium shaft etc. that is done for those tour players' clubs shrinks that 250% down quite a bit.

Dick's clubs vs JDM is apples to oranges. Tour issue clubs vs JDM is the appropriate "value" comparison. The premium JDM brands have the cost of customization built into the product price, USDMs don't. It leads to more sticker shock.
[/quote]

You make a couple good points and for the tour player who requires such exact specifications, you may be correct...however, when you position looses traction is that this really isn't the case with most clubs...it isn't the case with irons/wedges, and given the adjustability options in woods/hybrids, most of the required tweaks to loft/lie, etc. can be dialed in without hotmelt/bending, etc....of the rack retail isn't as far off from tour issue as many people think...again, when your primary analysis is performance, is more like a red apple vs. a green apple vs. a different variety of red apple...

In the vast majority of cases, tour issue is marginally different, at best...and in many cases,

[moonshine]

Just wondering in the midst of disagreement and/or discussion did anyone test a JDM against the likes of Scratch or Wishon? I would like to take a second to wave the USA flag here...for me anyway. I want to buy and support our products at any time if possible.

Understanding manufacturing helps a bit when talking price...as well as exchange rates and raw material cost. Also, Mr. Miura has a gift and should be rewarded for it. Making sets in limited numbers and selling all of them keeps a price at a certain point. If all of a sudden everyone said they are too much, no choice but to lower price if said JDM wants to stay in business.

Also, I have to mention the culture as I think it was touched on a bit once or twice already. Americans tend to love a bargain...I see it every day. At last mention, I will say that I may have set IF there were a way to try them in a readily available way I can major brands. I am swamped with opportunities every year for fittings...good quality monitors and professional knowledge from the major brands. It is a no brainer at this point for me when buying equipment. I will end by waving the US flag again...proud to buy American brands...wish it were mfg here too....as long as I can.

Somebody with jdm come visit the trail please...so I can try your clubs.

[morebeerbettergolf]

Thrill: Post #38 by me was in direct response to your quoted text.


It has never been my premise to suggest the tour issue is radically different. I really don't know how else to explain what I am saying here...

My points at a glance:

1. Off-the-rack: Not sorted, variable weights, face angles, lofts, etc. Cheapest option, least labor, least handling, worst tolerances.

2. JDM: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (manufacturing), high cost of labor. Exchange rate and shipping add greatly to cost. Very Expensive.

3. Tour issue: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (due to sorting, tweaking, and tuning), high cost of labor. Expensive.



Tour issue[i] is[/i] hand selected and sorted and tested and weighed, adjusted, hotmelted, or tipweighted, and the like, which adds cost to the end product in time, labor, material, etc. When someone invariably trots out the argument that "USDM stuff is good enough for pros, why do you need to buy JDM, it is expensive and won't make you play better" needs to compare the correct USDM stuff to JDM. Not Dick's o-t-r clubs to Epon.

If we are talking about tour pros, we need to talk about the actual equipment they are playing, which, by your own admissions, has been sorted and screened and tested. That process necessarily adds cost. Tour clubs have more expensive, exotic shafts than off-the-rack clubs do, so add that to the cost. Most higher end JDM woods already come with a high end shaft included in the price. Thus the price of JDM vs. tour issue isn't so much different as off-the-rack clubs. Also, keep in mind that TSG posted prices are almost always higher than the actual price you will pay if you email them or are a frequent buyer.

Part of the cost of JDM stuff is the ability to specify an exact set of parameters for your woods. I can order an Epon 103 with a 1.5* open face, 9.3* loft, and 199g head weight. And when it comes, it will measure exactly that. Tour players "order" their heads from whatever USDM brand tour van. They specify their parameters, and these heads have been hand selected for face angle, loft, weight, etc. Exactly like the Epon. So now we have a driver or wood that's essentially gone through the same process that JDM clubs do in regards to sorting, testing, weighing, et. al., stick a high dollar shaft in it, and viola! It costs nearly as much as a JDM driver. So close actually that the difference would be negligible when factoring in exchange rate and expensive shipping rates.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358274702' post='6233263']
Thrill: Post #38 by me was in direct response to your quoted text.


It has never been my premise to suggest the tour issue is radically different. I really don't know how else to explain what I am saying here...

My points at a glance:

1. Off-the-rack: Not sorted, variable weights, face angles, lofts, etc. Cheapest option, least labor, least handling, worst tolerances.

2. JDM: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (manufacturing), high cost of labor. Exchange rate and shipping add greatly to cost. Very Expensive.

3. Tour issue: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (due to sorting, tweaking, and tuning), high cost of labor. Expensive.



Tour issue[i] is[/i] hand selected and sorted and tested and weighed, adjusted, hotmelted, or tipweighted, and the like, which adds cost to the end product in time, labor, material, etc. When someone invariably trots out the argument that "USDM stuff is good enough for pros, why do you need to buy JDM, it is expensive and won't make you play better" needs to compare the correct USDM stuff to JDM. Not Dick's o-t-r clubs to Epon.

If we are talking about tour pros, we need to talk about the actual equipment they are playing, which, by your own admissions, has been sorted and screened and tested. That process necessarily adds cost. Tour clubs have more expensive, exotic shafts than off-the-rack clubs do, so add that to the cost. Most higher end JDM woods already come with a high end shaft included in the price. Thus the price of JDM vs. tour issue isn't so much different as off-the-rack clubs. Also, keep in mind that TSG posted prices are almost always higher than the actual price you will pay if you email them or are a frequent buyer.

Part of the cost of JDM stuff is the ability to specify an exact set of parameters for your woods. I can order an Epon 103 with a 1.5* open face, 9.3* loft, and 199g head weight. And when it comes, it will measure exactly that. Tour players "order" their heads from whatever USDM brand tour van. They specify their parameters, and these heads have been hand selected for face angle, loft, weight, etc. Exactly like the Epon. So now we have a driver or wood that's essentially gone through the same process that JDM clubs do in regards to sorting, testing, weighing, et. al., stick a high dollar shaft in it, and viola! It costs nearly as much as a JDM driver. So close actually that the difference would be negligible when factoring in exchange rate and expensive shipping rates.
[/quote]

Good stuff, much of what you say is true, but:

1) with adjustable woods everything but head weight is pretty easy to get correct with usdm woods.

2) LL and head weight can be adjusted on usdm irons through bending and tip weights.

I'm not denying that the tolerances on the JDM gear is better, but with adjustments (and I have no issue to those who say "I don't want to have to make those adjustments"), the usdm gear gets really close.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1358275239' post='6233303']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358274702' post='6233263']
Thrill: Post #38 by me was in direct response to your quoted text.


It has never been my premise to suggest the tour issue is radically different. I really don't know how else to explain what I am saying here...

My points at a glance:

1. Off-the-rack: Not sorted, variable weights, face angles, lofts, etc. Cheapest option, least labor, least handling, worst tolerances.

2. JDM: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (manufacturing), high cost of labor. Exchange rate and shipping add greatly to cost. Very Expensive.

3. Tour issue: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (due to sorting, tweaking, and tuning), high cost of labor. Expensive.



Tour issue[i] is[/i] hand selected and sorted and tested and weighed, adjusted, hotmelted, or tipweighted, and the like, which adds cost to the end product in time, labor, material, etc. When someone invariably trots out the argument that "USDM stuff is good enough for pros, why do you need to buy JDM, it is expensive and won't make you play better" needs to compare the correct USDM stuff to JDM. Not Dick's o-t-r clubs to Epon.

If we are talking about tour pros, we need to talk about the actual equipment they are playing, which, by your own admissions, has been sorted and screened and tested. That process necessarily adds cost. Tour clubs have more expensive, exotic shafts than off-the-rack clubs do, so add that to the cost. Most higher end JDM woods already come with a high end shaft included in the price. Thus the price of JDM vs. tour issue isn't so much different as off-the-rack clubs. Also, keep in mind that TSG posted prices are almost always higher than the actual price you will pay if you email them or are a frequent buyer.

Part of the cost of JDM stuff is the ability to specify an exact set of parameters for your woods. I can order an Epon 103 with a 1.5* open face, 9.3* loft, and 199g head weight. And when it comes, it will measure exactly that. Tour players "order" their heads from whatever USDM brand tour van. They specify their parameters, and these heads have been hand selected for face angle, loft, weight, etc. Exactly like the Epon. So now we have a driver or wood that's essentially gone through the same process that JDM clubs do in regards to sorting, testing, weighing, et. al., stick a high dollar shaft in it, and viola! It costs nearly as much as a JDM driver. So close actually that the difference would be negligible when factoring in exchange rate and expensive shipping rates.
[/quote]

Good stuff, much of what you say is true, but:

1) with adjustable woods everything but head weight is pretty easy to get correct with usdm woods.

2) LL and head weight can be adjusted on usdm irons through bending and tip weights.

I'm not denying that the tolerances on the JDM gear is better, but with adjustments (and I have no issue to those who say "I don't want to have to make those adjustments"), the usdm gear gets really close.
[/quote]

I like to think of it as a continuum of performance....if we were to give each type of a club a numerical value based on performance related criteria, I would put USDM at a 95/100 and JDM at maybe a 97....

[morebeerbettergolf]

I think the main thing to keep in mind when doing all the comparisons though is just to compare apples to apples. JDM vs. tricked out (weighted, adjusted, bent, etc) forged USDM and cost is way more appropriate than o-t-r cost. And JDM does not cost 250% of what tricked out forged USDM does. I see that number get floated around a lot, but it really isn't true. Maybe if you're buying a set of 3-PW Epons compared to a set of late season markdown Cobras, but not completely balanced and built custom clubs. I know cast vs forged is a whole different debate, just going with like models as nearly all JDM is forged and that adds cost due to the process. A full custom set of Titleist or Mizuno forged would be quite similar in cost to a full RomaRo or OnOff set, only difference being in the exchange rate and shipping right now.


I had to play my R11S with the face all the way open and the loft all the way down because I tend to pull-hook the ball when I go after it, and an open face fixes it. It was also nice because I needed the loft lowered. 2 birds, one stone. Would have sucked though if my miss was fighting a low hook. I currently am playing a JDM driver (Kamui Pro KPX) head that is built and designed to be anti-left....lifesaver. It is longer than the R11S but not as gratifying on pure shots. The TM drivers just feel hot. My cousin hits his RBZ so far it makes me want to cry.

[morebeerbettergolf]

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1358277135' post='6233529']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1358275239' post='6233303']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358274702' post='6233263']
Thrill: Post #38 by me was in direct response to your quoted text.


It has never been my premise to suggest the tour issue is radically different. I really don't know how else to explain what I am saying here...

My points at a glance:

1. Off-the-rack: Not sorted, variable weights, face angles, lofts, etc. Cheapest option, least labor, least handling, worst tolerances.

2. JDM: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (manufacturing), high cost of labor. Exchange rate and shipping add greatly to cost. Very Expensive.

3. Tour issue: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (due to sorting, tweaking, and tuning), high cost of labor. Expensive.



Tour issue[i] is[/i] hand selected and sorted and tested and weighed, adjusted, hotmelted, or tipweighted, and the like, which adds cost to the end product in time, labor, material, etc. When someone invariably trots out the argument that "USDM stuff is good enough for pros, why do you need to buy JDM, it is expensive and won't make you play better" needs to compare the correct USDM stuff to JDM. Not Dick's o-t-r clubs to Epon.

If we are talking about tour pros, we need to talk about the actual equipment they are playing, which, by your own admissions, has been sorted and screened and tested. That process necessarily adds cost. Tour clubs have more expensive, exotic shafts than off-the-rack clubs do, so add that to the cost. Most higher end JDM woods already come with a high end shaft included in the price. Thus the price of JDM vs. tour issue isn't so much different as off-the-rack clubs. Also, keep in mind that TSG posted prices are almost always higher than the actual price you will pay if you email them or are a frequent buyer.

Part of the cost of JDM stuff is the ability to specify an exact set of parameters for your woods. I can order an Epon 103 with a 1.5* open face, 9.3* loft, and 199g head weight. And when it comes, it will measure exactly that. Tour players "order" their heads from whatever USDM brand tour van. They specify their parameters, and these heads have been hand selected for face angle, loft, weight, etc. Exactly like the Epon. So now we have a driver or wood that's essentially gone through the same process that JDM clubs do in regards to sorting, testing, weighing, et. al., stick a high dollar shaft in it, and viola! It costs nearly as much as a JDM driver. So close actually that the difference would be negligible when factoring in exchange rate and expensive shipping rates.
[/quote]

Good stuff, much of what you say is true, but:

1) with adjustable woods everything but head weight is pretty easy to get correct with usdm woods.

2) LL and head weight can be adjusted on usdm irons through bending and tip weights.

I'm not denying that the tolerances on the JDM gear is better, but with adjustments (and I have no issue to those who say "I don't want to have to make those adjustments"), the usdm gear gets really close.
[/quote]

I like to think of it as a continuum of performance....if we were to give each type of a club a numerical value based on performance related criteria, I would put USDM at a 95/100 and JDM at maybe a 97....
[/quote]

The last few drops of performance are the most expensive...and normally do not represent a value proposition.

[Super Tuna]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1358275239' post='6233303']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358274702' post='6233263']
Thrill: Post #38 by me was in direct response to your quoted text.


It has never been my premise to suggest the tour issue is radically different. I really don't know how else to explain what I am saying here...

My points at a glance:

1. Off-the-rack: Not sorted, variable weights, face angles, lofts, etc. Cheapest option, least labor, least handling, worst tolerances.

2. JDM: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (manufacturing), high cost of labor. Exchange rate and shipping add greatly to cost. Very Expensive.

3. Tour issue: Sorted, can specify exact parameters, extremely tight tolerances (due to sorting, tweaking, and tuning), high cost of labor. Expensive.



Tour issue[i] is[/i] hand selected and sorted and tested and weighed, adjusted, hotmelted, or tipweighted, and the like, which adds cost to the end product in time, labor, material, etc. When someone invariably trots out the argument that "USDM stuff is good enough for pros, why do you need to buy JDM, it is expensive and won't make you play better" needs to compare the correct USDM stuff to JDM. Not Dick's o-t-r clubs to Epon.

If we are talking about tour pros, we need to talk about the actual equipment they are playing, which, by your own admissions, has been sorted and screened and tested. That process necessarily adds cost. Tour clubs have more expensive, exotic shafts than off-the-rack clubs do, so add that to the cost. Most higher end JDM woods already come with a high end shaft included in the price. Thus the price of JDM vs. tour issue isn't so much different as off-the-rack clubs. Also, keep in mind that TSG posted prices are almost always higher than the actual price you will pay if you email them or are a frequent buyer.

Part of the cost of JDM stuff is the ability to specify an exact set of parameters for your woods. I can order an Epon 103 with a 1.5* open face, 9.3* loft, and 199g head weight. And when it comes, it will measure exactly that. Tour players "order" their heads from whatever USDM brand tour van. They specify their parameters, and these heads have been hand selected for face angle, loft, weight, etc. Exactly like the Epon. So now we have a driver or wood that's essentially gone through the same process that JDM clubs do in regards to sorting, testing, weighing, et. al., stick a high dollar shaft in it, and viola! It costs nearly as much as a JDM driver. So close actually that the difference would be negligible when factoring in exchange rate and expensive shipping rates.
[/quote]

Good stuff, much of what you say is true, but:

1) with adjustable woods everything but head weight is pretty easy to get correct with usdm woods.

2) LL and head weight can be adjusted on usdm irons through bending and tip weights.

I'm not denying that the tolerances on the JDM gear is better, but with adjustments (and I have no issue to those who say "I don't want to have to make those adjustments"), the usdm gear gets really close.
[/quote]

#1: Can they? I'll admit, I may very might have missed it but I've asked a number of OEM's if they could bent a driver/fairway/hybrid to my desired lie angle and every one of them said no. Until the Speedline LS, I haven't come across a driver head that's in the realm of the 56.5. I'm also happy about a number of OEM's providing 57 fairways this year.

The other part to this though is the sorting as you mentioned. Unfortunately, I can't take 10 Razr Fit Extreme's up to the club builder and get him to check everyone one until I find one that's 57 while maintaining a neutral face angle. I'm happy to pay for the time it takes to get exactly that but unless I purchase JDM or a Tour Issue club from someone like WIll, I don't seem to have a lot of options.

#2: I agree that they can, but I also don't want them to. Tip weights move the COG and depending on how much tip weight you need, it can move signifigantly. I don't want to fix club weight at the expense of ball speed. I fully admit that this is one of those times I might be being too picky, but because I can have both the right weight with the standard COG location that I want both. Will moving the location 1/8 of an inch really matter on a day to day basis? Maybe, maybe not. It will however make my OCD brain go insane about the compromise though. That doesn't make JDM any better or USDM any worse, it's just what I like due to my nature.

[Woodridge]

Any thoughts on JDM tour issue clubs?

[station2station]

Distance control, and quality.

[morebeerbettergolf]

[quote name='Woodridge' timestamp='1358283332' post='6234301']
Any thoughts on JDM tour issue clubs?
[/quote]

They get melted down and used as saddles for unicorns

[MJisGOAT]

I play jdm for the spec/quality control and the extended product cycles. I mean the 501 was released in March 2010, that's going on 3 years, and probably could survive another 3. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and those qualities are stunning.

[Mob]

I am new to JDM since this past summer. I entered this arena cautiously, and not understanding the expense. I now understand why I have gravitated towards these clubs. The exacting standards of production tend to match my personality and character. I am a bit of a perfectionist, I work in a job that requires attention to detail, and I tend to be very particular. I know this about myself and I am ok with it. When I bought my Razr Fit driver, that was supposed to be around D4 and 10.5 degrees, it turned out to be D7 and 11.2 degrees. I then had to spend time and money getting this corrected. Is this a big deal? No, not really but as others have said, when my Miuras came, everything was exact. I am sure that there is a mental component to my love for these irons, and the true benefit may be less than my perceived benefit (except the wedges, those are clearly a huge improvement for me), but they make me happy. No need to argue and fight over this. A lot of reasonable opinions on both sides here, but this is clearly a subjective issue.

[MizzyMan]

Why do I? Cuz it saves me money. When I was playing Mizuno, TM, etc., not a few months would go by where I wouldn't fall into the trap of falling for their latest and greatest new gimmick or technology that was gonna improve my game. My Miuras I've played for 3+ years are still their best model, they don't need to change it every 6 months or year. I would've gone through probably 3-4 sets of Mizzies in that time, and with TM drivers, jeez, I would have gone through 7 by now. (And gained a total of 93 yards!)

Yeah, I know, it's my fault that I fell for all that crap. But I did. But now I'm not always searching for the latest and getting something new. So, not that I really care, but I actually spend less now since using JDM stuff.

[Oldplayer]

I am big fan of JDM and have quite a few sets. I gathered these sets by careful buying from ebay over the last few years. I then have them retro fitted. Some sets, my prgr td 900 and miura mc101 cost me less than $500 each, after retro fitting. Owning quality JDM does not necessarily have to be super expensive.
What I like about JDM irons.....
Quality of finish. The grinding and chrome finish is second to none on JDM especially the epon and miura sets.
Always beautiful, never gawdy, and subtle designs and shapes in players forged irons.
Feel varies with brand but most are super soft and feel amazing to play.
Specs are usually very precise and performance as a result is very good.
Rarity. I enjoy owning "special" golf clubs. Call me a snob if you like.

[size=4]Aside from the two sets mentioned above. I have:[/size]
[size=4]epon af tour[/size]
[size=4]miura retro tournament blades[/size]
[size=4]Tourstage 2005 blades and ts 201 cavities as well as z10[/size]
[size=4]Some of these are more US retail than Japan only models I [/size]suppose.
[size=4]Many of my other favorites were forged by JDM companies.[/size]
[size=4]For example TM 300, 2004 rac cbs etc.[/size]
[size=4]There are plenty of great clubs in the world and classics also like hogan redlines etc which I also own but the JDM gear is my favorite![/size]

[guisician]

Lucky enough to own the following JDM / JDMish sets of irons, listed alphabetically below:

Miura LE baby blades
Miura CB-202
Miura Giken Passing Point PP9003
RomaRo RD-02
Royal Collection Tour VS
Srixon I-302, tour issue grind
Tourstage Z101
Vega Kyoei RAF-001i
Yururi 2010 flat backs

And wedges from the following:
Chikara
Crews
Epon
Fourteen
Hakusa
Kenmochi
Miura
Vega
Zodia

All were bought used and carefully shopped for; all get their turn (along with dozens of Hogan and other non-JDM sets) on the practice tee with the Miura baby blades presently in the bag. They are a pleasure to swing!

[morebeerbettergolf]

I'd cry for the lack of available attention for them all

[guisician]

[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1359693184' post='6341573']
I'd cry for the lack of available attention for them all
[/quote]

I do what I can!

[AUDuffer]

[quote name='guisician' timestamp='1359695874' post='6341767'] [quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1359693184' post='6341573'] I'd cry for the lack of available attention for them all [/quote] I do what I can! [/quote]

How do you like the Tour VS? I've got a set coming and wanted to hear your thoughts!