The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1439399295' post='12124180']
Interesting as I thought Spieth only used it on short putts.
[/quote]

Right on Spieth short putts only. Clearly it is superior from longer distances, but for some golfers, it can work well from short range too. Depends how ball-bound you are too. Some folks get more bound up on short putts, and not seeing the ball frees them up.

[starsail85]

In my opinion it is a good way to prevent anticipation of impact effecting the stroke , and as the eyes are focusing on something stationary instead of something that is about to move its is a good way to keep the head still

Don't know if this is related but I am a good lag putter and hole out well too and I feel like I can see what I have just looked at eg the whole scene up to the hole , after my eyes have returned to the ball, not sure what I am actually looking at before I stroke it but I feel it's as though I have an eye in my left ear

[firstbatch]

[color="#282828"]but I feel it's as though I have an eye in my left ear .........that's what Fuzzy Z said made him a great putter was essentially exceptional peripheral vison[/color]

[mc3jack]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1439449645' post='12128304']
In my opinion it is a good way to prevent anticipation of impact effecting the stroke , and as the eyes are focusing on something stationary instead of something that is about to move its is a good way to keep the head still

Don't know if this is related but I am a good lag putter and hole out well too and I feel like I can see what I have just looked at eg the whole scene up to the hole , after my eyes have returned to the ball, not sure what I am actually looking at before I stroke it but I feel it's as though I have an eye in my left ear
[/quote]

A few thots.

I'm curious to see a study on whether left-eye-dominant players prefer the looking method.

I'm going to state an unresearched opinion that golfers who aren't good visualizers like looking at the hole on long putts. Also golfers unfamiliar with the "Goldilocks" method, which utilizes bicameral vision to determine distance.

Being a Waldronist, I also think *anything* that gets the golfer away from thinking about their stroke, including looking at the hole, will result in better putting stats.

[chigolfer1]

Why can't not looking at the ball be applied to the full swing, especially for golfers with severe "hit instinct?". Isn't the ball really just a place marker for how to set up? The ball doesn't move so what is the need for looking at it? The main issue I have seen when I try this is figuring out where to look and the effect it has on your swing since your head naturally looks down at the ball anyway. I have even tried just closing my eyes but that really effects balance, as we know.

Thoughts on the above?

[Jim Waldron]

This is what I love about the art of putting - so many things to try that might really help you. Makes the discovery process really fun!

Seems like left eye dominant would indeed prefer looking at the hole method.

One of the cool things about looking at the hole is that you dont "look up" - a common flaw - because you are already "up" and does tend to promote a steady head which is also very important fundamental in putting, as in the long game.

Chi - yes, I teach most of my students to deliberately avoid looking at the ball in their foveal vision, ie narrow focus. Pick a blade of grass on the target line or a bit outside it if you suffer from OTT, and stare at that. You will still see the ball in your peripheral vision but it will look "fuzzy", tends to make you less ball-bound and less of a hit impulse.

[chigolfer1]

I will try that Jim!

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1439514896' post='12133508']
This is what I love about the art of putting - so many things to try that might really help you. Makes the discovery process really fun!

Seems like left eye dominant would indeed prefer looking at the hole method.

One of the cool things about looking at the hole is that you dont "look up" - a common flaw - because you are already "up" and does tend to promote a steady head which is also very important fundamental in putting, as in the long game.

Chi - yes, I teach most of my students to deliberately avoid looking at the ball in their foveal vision, ie narrow focus. Pick a blade of grass on the target line or a bit outside it if you suffer from OTT, and stare at that. You will still see the ball in your peripheral vision but it will look "fuzzy", tends to make you less ball-bound and less of a hit impulse.
[/quote]

[ChristheGuitarist]

I would say that I know that the backswing in my putt is very important - somehow it feels like if I get the backswing part of my putt right, the rest of it looks after itself. As far as looking at the hole, I definitely stare and feel the hole distance a whole lot more than the actual putting action. I then track my eyes back along the target line, rock my shoulders back, fwd and through to a steady rhythm - hole, ball, back, fwd - 1, 2 , 3, 4 - slightly faster than my putter would pendulum if held between my thumb and finger mid grip.

Chi - there is a lot to be learnt from how music has been taught over the years (I was a pro guitar teacher for the last 11 years). All music learning includes a lot of repetition at very slow tempo and gradually working up to performance level. The thinking is - if you are making errors, you are playing too fast. ( A bit like learning to drive a car - start slow and build up to normal. Who's ever heard of a learner being given the wheel of a car travelling at 60 mph and their learning is gathered from various crashes into ditchs and lamp post collisions?!) So I would teach, play slowly enough (even if it's 10% speed) until you play the piece perfectly - then notch up the metronome 5% and repeat until perfect is easy again - notch up another 5% - and on until up to speed. Perhaps on more difficult pieces you break it down for students to exercises of just two bars (say 8 notes) and do the slow playing, building up with lots of repetitions. I found students would need to go through a piece at least 60x before they were getting competent - so a page of music of say 20 bars represents about 5 hours practice - 30 mins a day for a week. Golf seems to rarely be taught like music - but maybe golf is actually still at a fairly early stage of development compared to music teaching's hundreds of years. I'd say Jim's teaching includes all I have said above - slow speed swings, learning elements, repetition etc..

[chigolfer1]

Thanks Chris, have and will continue the slow motion practice. The one thing I wonder is how much you and Jim think slow motion practice of an "athletic motion" transfers to the full swing. Obviously you both think it does but any concerns of it not being quite analogous to slow motion practice of, say, a musical instrument?



[quote name='ChristheGuitarist' timestamp='1439559486' post='12135968']
I would say that I know that the backswing in my putt is very important - somehow it feels like if I get the backswing part of my putt right, the rest of it looks after itself. As far as looking at the hole, I definitely stare and feel the hole distance a whole lot more than the actual putting action. I then track my eyes back along the target line, rock my shoulders back, fwd and through to a steady rhythm - hole, ball, back, fwd - 1, 2 , 3, 4 - slightly faster than my putter would pendulum if held between my thumb and finger mid grip.

Chi - there is a lot to be learnt from how music has been taught over the years (I was a pro guitar teacher for the last 11 years). All music learning includes a lot of repetition at very slow tempo and gradually working up to performance level. The thinking is - if you are making errors, you are playing too fast. ( A bit like learning to drive a car - start slow and build up to normal. Who's ever heard of a learner being given the wheel of a car travelling at 60 mph and their learning is gathered from various crashes into ditchs and lamp post collisions?!) So I would teach, play slowly enough (even if it's 10% speed) until you play the piece perfectly - then notch up the metronome 5% and repeat until perfect is easy again - notch up another 5% - and on until up to speed. Perhaps on more difficult pieces you break it down for students to exercises of just two bars (say 8 notes) and do the slow playing, building up with lots of repetitions. I found students would need to go through a piece at least 60x before they were getting competent - so a page of music of say 20 bars represents about 5 hours practice - 30 mins a day for a week. Golf seems to rarely be taught like music - but maybe golf is actually still at a fairly early stage of development compared to music teaching's hundreds of years. I'd say Jim's teaching includes all I have said above - slow speed swings, learning elements, repetition etc..
[/quote]

[chigolfer1]

Jim, is it possible that sometimes you have to train a faster pivot (hips/shoulder girdle)? I have been told that if the club is in the right position your body will naturally react. All I know is that in slow motion I look perfect. In regular speed my pivot is way behind and or arms too fast. I am trying to figure out the correct way to address this. Arms need to be more "passive?" As you have seen, speeding up arms seems to be advocated so definitely confusing.

[Jim Waldron]

Part of full swing speed training hitting balls is Release timing, and one part of that is how much left arm to chest angle you have from P6 to impact, ideally no more than 45 degrees and no less than 30 degrees. Achieving that is mostly a result of having good Triangle pressures and a good backswing motion, so that you arrive at the Top in good position, with arms not lagging too much or too much in front, ie too close to sternum. If you Pivot at proper speed - not too fast or too slowly on Transition, and that includes Tilt Switch, you will arrive in a good P6 position. Then you simply Pivot Thrust and that will move your Triangle forward, and thus the clubhead will swing around in a 90 degree arc to impact.

In general, the notion that your body will "react" to your arms or your arms will "react" to your body has a poor track record in golf instruction. It sounds good, its simple to understand, but in my opinion it is mostly nonsense. More over-simplified fluff that is doled out to help struggling golfers with coordination issues. I believe and teach that a golf swing takes a lot of coordination of arm motion with pivot motion, and along with wrist and right arm angle at elbow motion. This is simply an objective fact. All those mechanical pieces are making motions independent of each other. You can learn how to coordinate that so the pieces are blended efficiently.

[chigolfer1]

Thanks for that detailed response Jim.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1430764587' post='11496603']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1430763558' post='11496479']
<<<One of the problems with using CM keys, when you really don't need to use them anymore, is that under stress/pressure, your CM tends to add an emotional element to the mental focus on the swing key, kind of like using the key to unlock the door with too much pressure, and you end up twisting the key in the lock so quickly that the key gets stuck in the lock and the door remains shut. In other words, a flinch.>>>

Fantastic stuff as usual, Jim! I'd like to ramble a bit about how golfers get derailed, as in CM focused even when they don't want to be.

We say we must forget the mechanics and Trust, and so we do. But every golf shot does not come off the way we 'pictured it' . . . and the deep emotional placement of Trust is . . . violated!

As you know, this is where Zen can come in handy for golfers.

I like to say Trust your decision, Commit to what you've decided....but most importantly, Accept whatever Outcome. Shots that don't come off can 'shock' a golfer into the CM flogger zone. A zen-like detachment from outcome expectation can help with execution . . . but detachment or perhaps "bemused observation" of the actual outcome, accepting that outcome as maybe a pleasant good shot or an opportunity to hit a great shot out of trouble, etc. . . . Acceptance is a huge part of playing well and especially enjoying golf.

And I should mention. A lot of times it's not the SM's 'fault' that a shot didn't work out. Often its the decision-making in the CM beforehand. Accepting your own dumb decision is a serious hurdle for what I call Ego-golfers. Accepting that your lie or the wind or your skill level that day won't let you have the shot "you want" in the decision making process. And hey. My SM will deliver a 100% driver blast that has a 60-yard shot dispersion for me whenever I want. Should I ask my SM for that shot from every tee? Hmmmm.

Acceptance is something that does not require athletic talent or physical fitness. Not easy, though. People like to chase their wants. They 'want' that putt to go in. Then they 'don't get what they want.' Then they wind up getting mad, or 'trying harder' or doubting their putting stroke. Same goes with golf shots. And we've all heard that swirling sound of a round going down the drain. Seen it so many times. Lived it for years. A golfbud shot one of the best rounds I'd ever seen him do recently...I'm excited after the round, he's moping because he bogeyed the last two holes. Hey, maybe he shouldn't have added up his score on the 17th tee box. Whatever. He 'wanted' to score 8 strokes better than his handicap, instead he got "only" six, and he's unhappy. People chasing their wants, man......talk about a flinch-maker.
[/quote]

Interesting stuff!

I think Acceptance in golf is huge! And hard to get to that state....certainly. Ego drives most of us, in our daily lives, more often that it should. I think as we age we start to see it's toxic influence and we start to let that go. Zen and Buddhist philosophy is all about acceptance of "what is" - that is the reality that is right in front of you in this moment. Tough to do - my wife always tells me that I am "the worst Buddhist on the planet" because I struggle with the acceptance part so much, and she is a natural born genius at it!

I have a theory that Jordan Spieth might also be a natural born genius at acceptance. He has all the signs...

[/quote]

At the PGA Championship: On the third shot to No. 5 Sunday, Michael Greller, Spieth’s caddie, suggested he “just ACCEPT 15 feet.” Spieth: “That would be really good.”

Of the awkward stance for his bunker shot on 16, Spieth talking at Greller as he decides how to hit it: “It’s OK like this. It’s just a really hard shot.”

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1439880277' post='12159640']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1430764587' post='11496603']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1430763558' post='11496479']
<<<One of the problems with using CM keys, when you really don't need to use them anymore, is that under stress/pressure, your CM tends to add an emotional element to the mental focus on the swing key, kind of like using the key to unlock the door with too much pressure, and you end up twisting the key in the lock so quickly that the key gets stuck in the lock and the door remains shut. In other words, a flinch.>>>

Fantastic stuff as usual, Jim! I'd like to ramble a bit about how golfers get derailed, as in CM focused even when they don't want to be.

We say we must forget the mechanics and Trust, and so we do. But every golf shot does not come off the way we 'pictured it' . . . and the deep emotional placement of Trust is . . . violated!

As you know, this is where Zen can come in handy for golfers.

I like to say Trust your decision, Commit to what you've decided....but most importantly, Accept whatever Outcome. Shots that don't come off can 'shock' a golfer into the CM flogger zone. A zen-like detachment from outcome expectation can help with execution . . . but detachment or perhaps "bemused observation" of the actual outcome, accepting that outcome as maybe a pleasant good shot or an opportunity to hit a great shot out of trouble, etc. . . . Acceptance is a huge part of playing well and especially enjoying golf.

And I should mention. A lot of times it's not the SM's 'fault' that a shot didn't work out. Often its the decision-making in the CM beforehand. Accepting your own dumb decision is a serious hurdle for what I call Ego-golfers. Accepting that your lie or the wind or your skill level that day won't let you have the shot "you want" in the decision making process. And hey. My SM will deliver a 100% driver blast that has a 60-yard shot dispersion for me whenever I want. Should I ask my SM for that shot from every tee? Hmmmm.

Acceptance is something that does not require athletic talent or physical fitness. Not easy, though. People like to chase their wants. They 'want' that putt to go in. Then they 'don't get what they want.' Then they wind up getting mad, or 'trying harder' or doubting their putting stroke. Same goes with golf shots. And we've all heard that swirling sound of a round going down the drain. Seen it so many times. Lived it for years. A golfbud shot one of the best rounds I'd ever seen him do recently...I'm excited after the round, he's moping because he bogeyed the last two holes. Hey, maybe he shouldn't have added up his score on the 17th tee box. Whatever. He 'wanted' to score 8 strokes better than his handicap, instead he got "only" six, and he's unhappy. People chasing their wants, man......talk about a flinch-maker.
[/quote]

Interesting stuff!

I think Acceptance in golf is huge! And hard to get to that state....certainly. Ego drives most of us, in our daily lives, more often that it should. I think as we age we start to see it's toxic influence and we start to let that go. Zen and Buddhist philosophy is all about acceptance of "what is" - that is the reality that is right in front of you in this moment. Tough to do - my wife always tells me that I am "the worst Buddhist on the planet" because I struggle with the acceptance part so much, and she is a natural born genius at it!

I have a theory that Jordan Spieth might also be a natural born genius at acceptance. He has all the signs...

[/quote]

At the PGA Championship: On the third shot to No. 5 Sunday, Michael Greller, Spieth’s caddie, suggested he “just ACCEPT 15 feet.” Spieth: “That would be really good.”

Of the awkward stance for his bunker shot on 16, Spieth talking at Greller as he decides how to hit it: “It’s OK like this. It’s just a really hard shot.”
[/quote]

Yeah - I watched that and was thinking the exact same thing. Accepting that you are in a bad lie, or that you just hit a horrible shot, and then moving on and dealing with it, is a golf skill that is not talked about much. I do think of it as a skill, unless that is just your natural personality (not too many of us!). You can learn how to cultivate that attitude. It really boils down to a willingness to embrace the actual reality of the moment and the situation right in front of you.

The tendency to embrace denial of a painful reality is just human nature, and a natural part of a child's psychology. In aboriginal culture, (90% of our time as humans in history), the tribal culture created "rites of passage" for the 12-14 year olds to go through, many of which involved deliberate infliction of physical pain and suffering, and the purpose of which was for the person to shed his child ego, and to be transformed by the pain/suffering to an adult character, ie a person who accepts the sometimes painful nature of the world we live in, and know that he or she will be "okay". Tribal cultures did not have a "juvenile deliquency" problem - like modern industrial cultures in the west have had for the past 150 years. There was no concept of "teenage years" - kids were literally transformed in a few days of painful ritual from a child to an adult. I have always thought this to be an important issue in the development of a healthy and highly functional adult person.

Lets' face it - golf is an incredibly difficult game and failure is the norm, far more often that success. When we become too reactive to a bad shot or bad lie, we are just compounding the problem. Having the goal of being calm and less reactive when in those tough situations is a good thing to practice.

[4pillars]

Jim

I do mirror work and slow motion practice, but at full speed on the course it is not happening.

I decided to do a TPI screening as I suspected this was the reason, and discovered my limitations and also at full speed I am reverse pivoting to protect the rear knee that I had an ACL reconstruction almost 30 years ago, and which has never really worked properly (which) is why I gave up Aikido about 10 years ago).

Obviously I am starting an exercise program but do you have any particular thoughts on golf fitness.

[ofortuna]

The periods where I played my best golf was when I just accepted my shot shape and tried to score. This often meant aiming 30 yards over the left trees from the tee. I remember shooting 3 consecutive scores in the mid 70's on a pretty easy course where I usually score in the high 80's by hitting my high percentage shot as ugly as it was. Truth be told, any shot that you can visualize and utilize, no longer becomes ugly but quite pleasing. Trying to straighten out or "fix" your swing on the golf course puts the really bad shots in play.

But it seems you're talking more about dealing with the occasional errant shot without the wheels going off. Like Day chunking his wedge on the 9th, scrambling to make par, then going on to win the PGA championship.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1439913465' post='12161710']
Jim

I do mirror work and slow motion practice, but at full speed on the course it is not happening.

I decided to do a TPI screening as I suspected this was the reason, and discovered my limitations and also at full speed I am reverse pivoting to protect the rear knee that I had an ACL reconstruction almost 30 years ago, and which has never really worked properly (which) is why I gave up Aikido about 10 years ago).

Obviously I am starting an exercise program but do you have any particular thoughts on golf fitness.
[/quote]

Excellent point. Slow motion training will not overide a functional movement limitation. And of course you also need to do dynamic motion training at full speed on the range to supplement the slow mo work.

In my experience, you need a reasonably strong core and moderate flexibility to perform a good golf swing. Extreme tightness in the hips, hamstrings, side bending muscles, and thoracic spine area makes it functionally impossible to perform a good pivot motion. Weakness in the stability muscles along the spine, the deep belly muscles and the glutes makes pivoting fast and in balance impossible.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1439914348' post='12161804']
The periods where I played my best golf was when I just accepted my shot shape and tried to score. This often meant aiming 30 yards over the left trees from the tee. I remember shooting 3 consecutive scores in the mid 70's on a pretty easy course where I usually score in the high 80's by hitting my high percentage shot as ugly as it was. Truth be told, any shot that you can visualize and utilize, no longer becomes ugly but quite pleasing. Trying to straighten out or "fix" your swing on the golf course puts the really bad shots in play.

But it seems you're talking more about dealing with the occasional errant shot without the wheels going off. Like Day chunking his wedge on the 9th, scrambling to make par, then going on to win the PGA championship.
[/quote]

Yes, you are talking about understanding your dominant "miss" and then playing for it. Smart golf strategy.

My main point was to learn how to stop over-reacting emotionally after a bad shot, accept it and move on. There are various Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques for this, as well as NLP. Some are called "pattern interrupts". The idea is to snap yourself our of the funk you created and get back to the present moment, and de-emotionalize the situation.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1439917933' post='12162298']
[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1439913465' post='12161710']
Jim

I do mirror work and slow motion practice, but at full speed on the course it is not happening.

I decided to do a TPI screening as I suspected this was the reason, and discovered my limitations and also at full speed I am reverse pivoting to protect the rear knee that I had an ACL reconstruction almost 30 years ago, and which has never really worked properly (which) is why I gave up Aikido about 10 years ago).

Obviously I am starting an exercise program but do you have any particular thoughts on golf fitness.
[/quote]

Excellent point. Slow motion training will not overide a functional movement limitation. And of course you also need to do dynamic motion training at full speed on the range to supplement the slow mo work.

In my experience, you need a reasonably strong core and moderate flexibility to perform a good golf swing. Extreme tightness in the hips, hamstrings, side bending muscles, and thoracic spine area makes it functionally impossible to perform a good pivot motion. Weakness in the stability muscles along the spine, the deep belly muscles and the glutes makes pivoting fast and in balance impossible.
[/quote]

Could you define dynamic motion training? Is that just hitting balls at full speed and carrying out drills at full speed?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1439918991' post='12162508']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1439917933' post='12162298']
[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1439913465' post='12161710']
Jim

I do mirror work and slow motion practice, but at full speed on the course it is not happening.

I decided to do a TPI screening as I suspected this was the reason, and discovered my limitations and also at full speed I am reverse pivoting to protect the rear knee that I had an ACL reconstruction almost 30 years ago, and which has never really worked properly (which) is why I gave up Aikido about 10 years ago).

Obviously I am starting an exercise program but do you have any particular thoughts on golf fitness.
[/quote]

Excellent point. Slow motion training will not overide a functional movement limitation. And of course you also need to do dynamic motion training at full speed on the range to supplement the slow mo work.

In my experience, you need a reasonably strong core and moderate flexibility to perform a good golf swing. Extreme tightness in the hips, hamstrings, side bending muscles, and thoracic spine area makes it functionally impossible to perform a good pivot motion. Weakness in the stability muscles along the spine, the deep belly muscles and the glutes makes pivoting fast and in balance impossible.
[/quote]

Could you define dynamic motion training? Is that just hitting balls at full speed and carrying out drills at full speed?
[/quote]

Yes - you need to do full speed hitting balls training for Balance, Tempo, Rhythm, Sequencing, Pivot Thrust and Release Timing. By definition, slow motion will not work for those fundamentals.

[Reasonability]

This stuff is some of the greatest gold we could be panning for IMHO.

Not for one second taking anything away from other swing philosophies whatsoever. To each his own. At the end of the day the game is either both mental and physical or it isn't. Its so rare to see someone like Jim willing to "go there" by consistently tackling BOTH what goes on between the ears AND the roadmap to better golf motions. Just one of the two is a mountain climb and he consistently drags one right along with the other.

My one question at this juncture is this. I tend to think we "can" swing in a relatively fluid and tension free way once we are in a good starting posture and grip - and swing around a little secondary spine tilt. I may well be oversimplifying by personally "computing" the way the upper spine tends to land a little farther from target than the lower spine at the top this way and then thanks to keeping the hands a good bit more in front of the chest (ASI) then the turn itself allows a more simple unhinging actions (as you say) without the arms passing the midline...at least not yet at that point).

If it's bad timing or not a good juncture for this question... I was wondering how "tilt-switch" and secondary tilt do (or do NOT) go hand-in-hand during the swing motion. I may have more than a little wrong here and if so am more than willing to "recompute". LOL

As always - thank you so much Jim.

[starsail85]

Just to clarify with the correct motion where should the hands be looking Dtl in p3, that's hands in relation to body...centre of chest?


Left arm should be inside the toe line not pointing down it also at p3?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440010465' post='12170744']
Just to clarify with the correct motion where should the hands be looking Dtl in p3, that's hands in relation to body...centre of chest?


Left arm should be inside the toe line not pointing down it also at p3?
[/quote]

About center of chest, left arm inside toe line. From camera halfway between toe line and target line.

But - that is a 2D view. You can also use the model information - about 75 degrees shoulder girdle rotation, left side bend complete or nearly so, 45-70 degree left arm to chest angle (depends on club).

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1440005915' post='12170246']
This stuff is some of the greatest gold we could be panning for IMHO.

Not for one second taking anything away from other swing philosophies whatsoever. To each his own. At the end of the day the game is either both mental and physical or it isn't. Its so rare to see someone like Jim willing to "go there" by consistently tackling BOTH what goes on between the ears AND the roadmap to better golf motions. Just one of the two is a mountain climb and he consistently drags one right along with the other.

My one question at this juncture is this. I tend to think we "can" swing in a relatively fluid and tension free way once we are in a good starting posture and grip - and swing around a little secondary spine tilt. I may well be oversimplifying by personally "computing" the way the upper spine tends to land a little farther from target than the lower spine at the top this way and then thanks to keeping the hands a good bit more in front of the chest (ASI) then the turn itself allows a more simple unhinging actions (as you say) without the arms passing the midline...at least not yet at that point).

If it's bad timing or not a good juncture for this question... I was wondering how "tilt-switch" and secondary tilt do (or do NOT) go hand-in-hand during the swing motion. I may have more than a little wrong here and if so am more than willing to "recompute". LOL

As always - thank you so much Jim.
[/quote]

Tilt Switch and Setup rightward spine tilt do have a relationship, but really tough to explain accurately - even to new students who are with me in person on the range. First - you have to know that you tilt to your left side - "left side bend" - during the backswing. And that you move from hip flexion to hip extension during the backswing. Those two things happen in tandem, and in effect, cancel each other out, so that your forward spine angle stays the same, and your torso can rotate properly. Rotation, extension and left side bend all happen at the same time.

In Transiton, you have to reverse that left side bend - ie, bend to the right and that is Tilt Switch.

Setup rightward tilt is immediately lost when you left side bend - clearly. But whatever right tilt you have in torso at Setup, from caddie view, is the same right tilt of the torso at the Top, but only from caddie view, ie the source of the right tilt is a small portion of the hip flexion you had at Setup.

Zero degrees of right tilt at Setup with GW, SW, and LW - no reverse K - equals zero degrees at the Top, ie no forward bend from the hips.

15 degrees of right tilt with driver at Setup is 15 degrees to the right from caddie view, but only from a little hip flexion.

The left side bend is the second biggest illusion in the golf swing after the ASI.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1440038687' post='12173804']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440010465' post='12170744']
Just to clarify with the correct motion where should the hands be looking Dtl in p3, that's hands in relation to body...centre of chest?


Left arm should be inside the toe line not pointing down it also at p3?
[/quote]

About center of chest, left arm inside toe line. From camera halfway between toe line and target line.

But - that is a 2D view. You can also use the model information - about 75 degrees shoulder girdle rotation, left side bend complete or nearly so, 45-70 degree left arm to chest angle (depends on club).
[/quote]

That's great info thanks, I guess the 2d reference points are important to those who don't have the full perspective like myself

I am guessing that this 75 degree shoulder girdle rotation is the sum of all the parts yes? Knees hips and thoracic movements combined?

The left side right side bends replacing forward bends is a concept I nearly understand but I can't see it in the golf swing clearly, it really does seem like an odyssey to me at the minute , where is the best information source for this movement?

[JD3]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366919992' post='6917241']
[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1366919275' post='6917169']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366915984' post='6916813']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1366912237' post='6916469']
Kiwi2:

You wrote:

If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the
target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist
high.

Is that what you meant to say?

Steve
[/quote]

Yes.

The pivot action is being disregarded here. The explanation relates to the arms independently. It is the only way I am aware of that the illusion can be explained. That is to isolate the arm movement.

Jim prefers the term move away rather than takeaway. In his model there is no independent arm action in the first part of this movement. The term move away implies a body motion. The belly is used to initiate the backswing after a rebound from what he calls the bump. The arms don’t come into it yet. There is no pushing away of the arms at that stage. The arms will move however as a result of connection of the left arm. The independent arm motion kicks in when the hands reach the right hand side of the right leg .

The explanation was not describing the takeaway or backswing.
[/quote]

If I can jump in, to maybe clarify? I think the initial confusion (because it confused me) was where you say the arm moves at a 45* angle to the chest TOWARD the target line. That 'toward' the target line is confusing. I think from my point of view, it would be AWAY from the target line? Im assuming what you are saying is, if we use the hands of a clock analogy that we all know and at setup, our hands are roughly pointing toward 12 o'clock, then your backswing move you are referring to gets you to 1:30ish or so. Is that right? Instead of going all the way to 3 o'clock or deeper.
[/quote]

Yes about toward 1:30 - but again only IF NO PIVOT. And no - the hands are pushed away from your chest as if you are shaking hands with someone standing in front of you, on the target line, but to your right, so that your left arm would extend away from you but on a 45 degree angle to the right.

When you blend the chest turn and arm 45 angle pushaway, it just looks like Justin Roses, or Tigers, or Mahans takeaway - and hundreds of other guys on tour.

To put it another way, when I ask a high handicap amateur to show me what he thinks a tour pro does with his "arm swing" during takeaway, but without a pivot, Mr. 35 handicap will simply swing his arms sideways across his chest, parallel to the target line and more or less over his toe line, with a lot of right elbow bend. He is trying to "swing" his arms across and around his chest. When I do it, my motion is almost totally opposite. I am pushing my arms away from body in front of my chest - but to the right of mid-line on a 45 degree angle. And my right arm stays straight or perhaps just a touch of elbow bend at the very end of the motion. I have created width by doing so, my student has narrowed his arc considerably and used his right bicep to bend his right elbow.

Hogan said "If I could have surgery to improve my golf swing I would have the doctor remove both of by biceps."
[/quote]
Did Hogan really say that ?

[starsail85]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1440149861' post='12181398']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366919992' post='6917241']
[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1366919275' post='6917169']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366915984' post='6916813']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1366912237' post='6916469']
Kiwi2:

You wrote:

If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the
target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist
high.

Is that what you meant to say?

Steve
[/quote]

Yes.

The pivot action is being disregarded here. The explanation relates to the arms independently. It is the only way I am aware of that the illusion can be explained. That is to isolate the arm movement.

Jim prefers the term move away rather than takeaway. In his model there is no independent arm action in the first part of this movement. The term move away implies a body motion. The belly is used to initiate the backswing after a rebound from what he calls the bump. The arms don’t come into it yet. There is no pushing away of the arms at that stage. The arms will move however as a result of connection of the left arm. The independent arm motion kicks in when the hands reach the right hand side of the right leg .

The explanation was not describing the takeaway or backswing.
[/quote]

If I can jump in, to maybe clarify? I think the initial confusion (because it confused me) was where you say the arm moves at a 45* angle to the chest TOWARD the target line. That 'toward' the target line is confusing. I think from my point of view, it would be AWAY from the target line? Im assuming what you are saying is, if we use the hands of a clock analogy that we all know and at setup, our hands are roughly pointing toward 12 o'clock, then your backswing move you are referring to gets you to 1:30ish or so. Is that right? Instead of going all the way to 3 o'clock or deeper.
[/quote]

Yes about toward 1:30 - but again only IF NO PIVOT. And no - the hands are pushed away from your chest as if you are shaking hands with someone standing in front of you, on the target line, but to your right, so that your left arm would extend away from you but on a 45 degree angle to the right.

When you blend the chest turn and arm 45 angle pushaway, it just looks like Justin Roses, or Tigers, or Mahans takeaway - and hundreds of other guys on tour.

To put it another way, when I ask a high handicap amateur to show me what he thinks a tour pro does with his "arm swing" during takeaway, but without a pivot, Mr. 35 handicap will simply swing his arms sideways across his chest, parallel to the target line and more or less over his toe line, with a lot of right elbow bend. He is trying to "swing" his arms across and around his chest. When I do it, my motion is almost totally opposite. I am pushing my arms away from body in front of my chest - but to the right of mid-line on a 45 degree angle. And my right arm stays straight or perhaps just a touch of elbow bend at the very end of the motion. I have created width by doing so, my student has narrowed his arc considerably and used his right bicep to bend his right elbow.

Hogan said "If I could have surgery to improve my golf swing I would have the doctor remove both of by biceps."
[/quote]
Did Hogan really say that ?
[/quote]

Pretty sure he wrote it in 5L

[Golfbeat]

Jim, I purchased Module 2 a few days ago and it has clarified a lot of my thinking about the ASI. One thing that it not completely clear is how the left wrist goes from slightly cupped at address to straight or in your case slightly bowed when doing the push away. Do you actively twist the wrists to get in that position or should it go automatically and I do something wrong?

[starsail85]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1440156261' post='12181590']
Jim, I purchased Module 2 a few days ago and it has clarified a lot of my thinking about the ASI. One thing that it not completely clear is how the left wrist goes from slightly cupped at address to straight or in your case slightly bowed when doing the push away. Do you actively twist the wrists to get in that position or should it go automatically and I do something wrong?
[/quote]

Very interested to hear this as I am working on this exact thing. When I have watched Jims discription of wrist action it is upward cocking with the right hand hinging backwards something in the region of 20*. I was cupped at p3 and p4 so I have worked on hinging the right hand back and it looks good at p3 . I do think that this right hinging has to occur when the push away starts to happen as starting before p2 will take you off plane which seems easy to happen actually

Interested in JW thoughts on this too

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1440156261' post='12181590']
Jim, I purchased Module 2 a few days ago and it has clarified a lot of my thinking about the ASI. One thing that it not completely clear is how the left wrist goes from slightly cupped at address to straight or in your case slightly bowed when doing the push away. Do you actively twist the wrists to get in that position or should it go automatically and I do something wrong?
[/quote]

You actively do it with your wrist and forearm muscles, it is not a natural movement. After you do enough reps, it becomes an unconscious habit, like all swing motions eventually (at least that should always be your long term goal of any swing change). Not really a "twist" though - it is simply a backward hinging of the right wrist, done without any rolling or turning of the wrists/forearms, keeps the toe up on the clubhead.

You do that hinge motion at the same time as the up-c0cking of the wrists. That motion becomes one unified wrist motion with practice. And that is blended into the 45 degree arm pushaway motion. Which is blended into the pivot motion. When the blending is correct, the shaft tracks back on plane.