Match play final.. Was I hustled?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381431000' post='7982273']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381430759' post='7982243']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381430405' post='7982195']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381430299' post='7982181']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381429757' post='7982137']
Interesting. You don't believe the OP's opponent had a legitimate handicap.
[/quote]

is that a question?

I've been taking a neutral stance the whole time. I never accused the opponent being cheater, nor did I defend the opponent as being legit. The point I've been trying to get across the entire time is that if you want to know whether this guy is a cheater or not, you will need to look at his performance as an individual, and not by the odds pertaining to the population as whole.
[/quote]

No, it's a statement of fact. You stated you not believe anything without facts. You have no facts on his handicap. Therefore you do not believe he even has a handicap.
[/quote]


uhh no. the only facts that I know, which was given by the OP, is that this guy used to be a 9 last year, and is a 12 this year, went 13 holes with 1 birdie, 2 bogeys, and 10 pars. So based on these facts, is it possible that a former 9 handicapper can go on a 13-hole hot streak...yeah. based on these facts, is he a cheater? dont have enough info to determine that yet.
[/quote]

So the OP's statement is a fact?
[/quote]

If it isn't then ALL of this is a moot point, and we are all wasting our time.

Including you.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381431779' post='7982383']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381430906' post='7982261']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381430671' post='7982219']
There is factual evidence because they guy had to submit an official handicap before he could play in the tournament.
[/quote]

Where are these facts?

Or are you making an assumption he has a handicap because he was playing in a net tournament?
[/quote]

He should...or the tournament committee did a really lousy job.

But I also held out for that possibility when I mentioned how I would deal with the situation if that information did not prove to be available.

I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Because I'd rather let a cheater get away with it, than ruin a truly magical day for an honest golfer by acting like an @sshole.

Again, YMMV.
[/quote]

A simple yes would have sufficed. You desperately need to learn to admit when you are wrong.

You just keep digging your hole deeper.

[TripleSingle]

ok wow...Eye2+....have you forgotten the facts that I've been given are the exact same ones you've been given. If you have any questions or doubts regarding the facts the OP has provided, then please PM him.

[omr17]

I feel like I'm too late to the party here to respond to the OP's original question but...

Barry - obviously, have no idea about the guy you played (and can say I did not read 14 pages of posts here). But, I can say there is a guy at my club who is a legitimate 12 - always hovers between 10 and 12 throughout the year. When he gets 'er going, he can easily play to 1 or 2 over through 12,13 holes. I've played a 9 hole match against him where I've been 2 over after 5 holes (I'm a 6) and down 3. I tend to play alot of match play throughout the year and it happens - all you can do is laugh and shake his hand...and try to make him buy you a beer for sandbagging!

[nbg352]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381431000' post='7982273']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381430759' post='7982243']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381430405' post='7982195']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381430299' post='7982181']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381429757' post='7982137']
Interesting. You don't believe the OP's opponent had a legitimate handicap.
[/quote]

is that a question?

I've been taking a neutral stance the whole time. I never accused the opponent being cheater, nor did I defend the opponent as being legit. The point I've been trying to get across the entire time is that if you want to know whether this guy is a cheater or not, you will need to look at his performance as an individual, and not by the odds pertaining to the population as whole.
[/quote]

No, it's a statement of fact. You stated you not believe anything without facts. You have no facts on his handicap. Therefore you do not believe he even has a handicap.
[/quote]


uhh no. the only facts that I know, which was given by the OP, is that this guy used to be a 9 last year, and is a 12 this year, went 13 holes with 1 birdie, 2 bogeys, and 10 pars. So based on these facts, is it possible that a former 9 handicapper can go on a 13-hole hot streak...yeah. based on these facts, is he a cheater? dont have enough info to determine that yet.
[/quote]

So the OP's statement is a fact?
[/quote]
Since we have no reason to believe otherwise, I think it is safe to say the OP's statement is fact. Wouldn't you agree?

[nbg352]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381430906' post='7982261']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381430671' post='7982219']
There is factual evidence because they guy had to submit an official handicap before he could play in the tournament.
[/quote]

Where are these facts?

Or are you making an assumption he has a handicap because he was playing in a net tournament?
[/quote]
You think they'd allow him into the "club championship" "NET" tournament with out one? At his own club? C'mon, think about that for a sec.....

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381432014' post='7982417']
ok wow...Eye2+....have you forgotten the facts that I've been given are the exact same ones you've been given. If you have any questions or doubts regarding the facts the OP has provided, then please PM him.
[/quote]

The difference is I'm not the one who stated I only believe facts. I live in the real world where you can't be philosophical. Sometimes you have to make assumptions based on available information.

You on the other hand most assuredly would never make such assumptions.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1381432353' post='7982453']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381430906' post='7982261']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381430671' post='7982219']
There is factual evidence because they guy had to submit an official handicap before he could play in the tournament.
[/quote]

Where are these facts?

Or are you making an assumption he has a handicap because he was playing in a net tournament?
[/quote]
You think they'd allow him into the "club championship" "NET" tournament with out one? At his own club? C'mon, think about that for a sec.....
[/quote]

No I don't think they would. The odds would seem to indicate he almost assuredly had a handicap.

However, the other poster only deals in facts. So he won't make the same assumption that seems reasonable to you and me.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381426990' post='7981909']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381426582' post='7981873']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381404857' post='7980155']
Once again, you and several posters are unable to make a valid comparison.

In your example we know that the Bobcats beat the Clippers. In the OP we know the OP lost. That isn't up for debate. A valid analogy on your part would be the following:

[b]The odds [u]are[/u][/b] 84,300:1 that the Clipper[b] [u]threw[/u] the game and intentionally lost[/b]. Do we assume that the Clipper threw the game, or do we go with the 99.998% probability that the clippers just didn't play well that night?
[/quote]

This right here clearly shows you have a misunderstanding of the concept of what odds are. You don't use odds to refer to something in the past tense. Odds are used to predict what will happen. In this case, you are presenting an odd to something that has already happened. What has already happened is called a statistic/occurrence/absolute event. You don't use odds as a METHOD to prove or disprove the event that just happened.
So you can say "The odds of the Clippers [b][u]throwing[/u] away the game [u]are[/u][/b] 84,300:1" (BEFORE the game is played)
After the game, if it is proven that the Clippers did in fact throw the game away, then you can say "The Clippers threw the game away and lost 107-98. The odds of the Clippers throwing away the game [u][b]was[/b][/u] 84,300:1"

So in OP's situation, lets just say that the guy did cheat. Did the odds prove it? No. An investigation or analysis to the sequence of events would.
[/quote]

So let's take this to an extreme shall we. Suppose that some guy enters a tournament at Bethpage Black. It's played from the very tips and he enters with a handicap index of 30. Slope rating is 146, so his course handicap for the day is 39. The course rating is about 76 I think, so that would mean he "should" shoot 115. He shoots 68. What investigation do you think we would need to do to determine that this person is in fact sandbagging? Do you think the odds prove it?
[/quote]

In this case, I think the odds themselves are evidence.

Because we are no longer dealing with a situation that is simply rare....but are now somewhere north of FREAKISH.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='omr17' timestamp='1381432080' post='7982423']
I feel like I'm too late to the party here to respond to the OP's original question but...

Barry - obviously, have no idea about the guy you played (and can say I did not read 14 pages of posts here). But, I can say there is a guy at my club who is a legitimate 12 - always hovers between 10 and 12 throughout the year. When he gets 'er going, he can easily play to 1 or 2 over through 12,13 holes. I've played a 9 hole match against him where I've been 2 over after 5 holes (I'm a 6) and down 3. I tend to play alot of match play throughout the year and it happens - all you can do is laugh and shake his hand...and try to make him buy you a beer for sandbagging!
[/quote]

[i]Ding....[/i]

[i]We have a winner....[/i]

[nbg352]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381432630' post='7982483']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1381432353' post='7982453']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381430906' post='7982261']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381430671' post='7982219']
There is factual evidence because they guy had to submit an official handicap before he could play in the tournament.
[/quote]

Where are these facts?

Or are you making an assumption he has a handicap because he was playing in a net tournament?
[/quote]
You think they'd allow him into the "club championship" "NET" tournament with out one? At his own club? C'mon, think about that for a sec.....
[/quote]

No I don't think they would. The odds would seem to indicate he almost assuredly had a handicap.

However, the other poster only deals in facts. So he won't make the same assumption that seems reasonable to you and me.
[/quote]
Actually, experience and normal practices in these kinds of events led me to my conclusion, not the odds.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381432892' post='7982519']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381426990' post='7981909']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381426582' post='7981873']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381404857' post='7980155']
Once again, you and several posters are unable to make a valid comparison.

In your example we know that the Bobcats beat the Clippers. In the OP we know the OP lost. That isn't up for debate. A valid analogy on your part would be the following:

[b]The odds [u]are[/u][/b] 84,300:1 that the Clipper[b] [u]threw[/u] the game and intentionally lost[/b]. Do we assume that the Clipper threw the game, or do we go with the 99.998% probability that the clippers just didn't play well that night?
[/quote]

This right here clearly shows you have a misunderstanding of the concept of what odds are. You don't use odds to refer to something in the past tense. Odds are used to predict what will happen. In this case, you are presenting an odd to something that has already happened. What has already happened is called a statistic/occurrence/absolute event. You don't use odds as a METHOD to prove or disprove the event that just happened.
So you can say "The odds of the Clippers [b][u]throwing[/u] away the game [u]are[/u][/b] 84,300:1" (BEFORE the game is played)
After the game, if it is proven that the Clippers did in fact throw the game away, then you can say "The Clippers threw the game away and lost 107-98. The odds of the Clippers throwing away the game [u][b]was[/b][/u] 84,300:1"

So in OP's situation, lets just say that the guy did cheat. Did the odds prove it? No. An investigation or analysis to the sequence of events would.
[/quote]

So let's take this to an extreme shall we. Suppose that some guy enters a tournament at Bethpage Black. It's played from the very tips and he enters with a handicap index of 30. Slope rating is 146, so his course handicap for the day is 39. The course rating is about 76 I think, so that would mean he "should" shoot 115. He shoots 68. What investigation do you think we would need to do to determine that this person is in fact sandbagging? Do you think the odds prove it?
[/quote]

In this case, I think the odds themselves are evidence.

Because we are no longer dealing with a situation that is simply rare....but are now somewhere north of FREAKISH.
[/quote]

You can't have it both ways.

[TripleSingle]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381432505' post='7982465']
The difference is I'm not the one who stated I only believe facts. I live in the real world where you can't be philosophical. Sometimes you have to make assumptions based on available information.

You on the other hand most assuredly would never make such assumptions.
[/quote]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381432630' post='7982483']
However, the other poster only deals in facts. So he won't make the same assumption that seems reasonable to you and me.
[/quote]

Ok first of all, you making a lot of assumptions would be your philosophy. I don't have a problem with that, that's your business. Then you say I'm not making any assumptions, which you continue on saying that I wont make the same assumption that seems reasonable to you.

So what's your point here, that I dont make assumptions, or that I dont make the same ones as you. But you know what, I really dont give a damn.

Everyone who reads this post will have assumptions, some which might not be posted. I'm just not ready to turn those assumptions into an accusation.

Maybe you never had 1 round where you shot 8-10 below your handicap, because it seems like you are not able to relate with some of us who have experienced it. And if you havent, I really do hope that you do one day, so that you can have a better understanding of what I, and many others, are trying to say.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381433262' post='7982579']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1381432892' post='7982519']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381426990' post='7981909']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381426582' post='7981873']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381404857' post='7980155']
Once again, you and several posters are unable to make a valid comparison.

In your example we know that the Bobcats beat the Clippers. In the OP we know the OP lost. That isn't up for debate. A valid analogy on your part would be the following:

[b]The odds [u]are[/u][/b] 84,300:1 that the Clipper[b] [u]threw[/u] the game and intentionally lost[/b]. Do we assume that the Clipper threw the game, or do we go with the 99.998% probability that the clippers just didn't play well that night?
[/quote]

This right here clearly shows you have a misunderstanding of the concept of what odds are. You don't use odds to refer to something in the past tense. Odds are used to predict what will happen. In this case, you are presenting an odd to something that has already happened. What has already happened is called a statistic/occurrence/absolute event. You don't use odds as a METHOD to prove or disprove the event that just happened.
So you can say "The odds of the Clippers [b][u]throwing[/u] away the game [u]are[/u][/b] 84,300:1" (BEFORE the game is played)
After the game, if it is proven that the Clippers did in fact throw the game away, then you can say "The Clippers threw the game away and lost 107-98. The odds of the Clippers throwing away the game [u][b]was[/b][/u] 84,300:1"

So in OP's situation, lets just say that the guy did cheat. Did the odds prove it? No. An investigation or analysis to the sequence of events would.
[/quote]

So let's take this to an extreme shall we. Suppose that some guy enters a tournament at Bethpage Black. It's played from the very tips and he enters with a handicap index of 30. Slope rating is 146, so his course handicap for the day is 39. The course rating is about 76 I think, so that would mean he "should" shoot 115. He shoots 68. What investigation do you think we would need to do to determine that this person is in fact sandbagging? Do you think the odds prove it?
[/quote]

In this case, I think the odds themselves are evidence.

Because we are no longer dealing with a situation that is simply rare....but are now somewhere north of FREAKISH.
[/quote]

You can't have it both ways.
[/quote]

Yes, I can---because in the real world---things are not that cut and dried.

As you keep stubbornly refusing to see. There are many people here who know (or have personally accomplished) the rare feat that is in questioned.

Freakishly rare things happen. [b][i]But what are the odds of you---or anyone you know---being present when it happens??[/i][/b]

Like I said, the odds of getting hit by falling (man-made) space debris is about 4 trillion to one. Well...in March of 2001 Lottie Williams of Tulsa, OK was that person who defied the odds. She got hit by the remnants of a old Delta II rocket that had re-entered the atmosphere early that evening.

She is the only person in recorded history to have ever been hit.

Now. [b][i]Everyone who happened to be standing next to Ms. Williams and PERSONALLY witnessed her getting struck...please raise your hand. [/i][/b]

[b][i]Everyone who was standing behind someone in line when they bought their winning Powerball ticket...please raise your hand....[/i][/b]

If someone walks up to me and tells me that they've been hit by falling, man-made space junk...and I assume that they are lying...I've only got one chance in about 9 [i][b]billion[/b][/i] of being wrong.

I'm willing to take that chance. That falls well within the bounds of "beyond a reasonable doubt."

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381427812' post='7981973']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381426990' post='7981909']
So let's take this to an extreme shall we. Suppose that some guy enters a tournament at Bethpage Black. It's played from the very tips and he enters with a handicap index of 30. Slope rating is 146, so his course handicap for the day is 39. The course rating is about 76 I think, so that would mean he "should" shoot 115. He shoots 68. What investigation do you think we would need to do to determine that this person is in fact sandbagging? Do you think the odds prove it?
[/quote]

So for this extreme example, lets just assume the odds are 1 billion : 1. Odds don't prove anything. In order to prove whether this guy is sandbagging or not would be by looking at the sequence of events, which in this case, would be looking at everything he did from 1 to 18. Did he commit any rule violations, such as not counting OBs, not finishing the holes by lifting up 3 footers, etc. What was the luck factor; did his ball, which could have been OB, hit a tree which put the ball back into the fairway, etc.

Now lets say the guy did in fact cheat his way to the 68. Did the odds prove it? No. The review of sequence of events did.

Now lets say the guy did hit a legit 68. Then that means that he's the one in 1 billion: [u][b]1[/b][/u]
[/quote]

There is no further information except that the 68 was a legitimate score. No cheating on the course, ball played down under tournament conditions. The only thing in question regarding his score is his handicap.

If someone came in with a net 29, you'd really be asking if he got lucky?

[Barry88]

Exactly.

The odds of a 12 handicap beating his index by 10 strokes is 83,400 to 1.

Vegas would be nothing but dirt again if people were allowed to bet on those odds that are given out by GHIN. Whom ever came up with those odds is soooo far off and it's proven weekly at any Net event across the USA.

It's pretty easy to tell if you been hustled or not by just watching the players game
Does his swing look repeatable? decent swing for a 12 i must admit
Was he in play all day? Yes he was in play all day
Did he ever look nervous? Not one bit, if anything he thrived on the occassion
How was his short game and mainly 3-6 foot putts? he had a three 6-8 footers, missed 1
What was his weakness? Bad fade/slice but knew had to compensate for it
How was he from 100-50 yards? nothing too close but didnt miss the green either
What type of clubs did he play? he talked about getting a shaft fitted for his new SLDR driver at one point and seemed to know his shaft well
Did the course set up well for him...its our local course so we both know it well enough
Was he generous with giving you putts for a tie that maybe a touch to long? no he was not generous except for one putt
Did you look him up on GHIN and look at recent scores at the course played vs scores played elsewhere? Never heard of GHIN before
What had he win before at this club? Not too sure he doesnt play many single comps
How many greens did he hit in regulation out of those 13? he hit only 3 but got up and down each time except for one hole
What club did he use from 150 yards? 8 iron? not sure, it was match play you don't advertise your club selection
How was his balance? not smooth at all, balance was very poor
Did he ever really hit and poor shots, like really poor... never wayward with a shot, had one chunk shot and ended up with a bogey
Did you know that he was a 9 at one time before the match started, or did you look him up afterwards? he told me himself he was 9 last summer

I always look at 64 net as a number that starts to raise the eyebrows and anything lower is a double brow raise. I can live with the 68-65 range, but cannot with scores lower the this.

Hope that gives you an insight.. Good questions

[Hstead]

There is a reason Eye quit posting on the otter thread. There are just too many dense people that seem to defy his infinite wisdom. It is rather lop sided as I knew it would be. Eye must have started playing golf last year.

[Barry88]

[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381424812' post='7981751']
[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381411474' post='7980639']
I have created a monster!!!!! I regret starting this thread now after reading the farcical drivel that's being posted the last couple of days.. Casinos, odds, predicting future trends etc I think it's gone way off topic to an extent.
[/quote]

Hey Barry88, no one is faulting you, and you didn't do anything wrong. As I've said earlier, it is natural to feel hustled, but you did the right thing. You shook his hand and congratulated him.
It seems that Eye2+ has been so obsessed with numbers and percentages that he's either lost sight of the basic concept of what odds are, or he never knew what the definition is to begin with.
I'm sure you would agree that it would be quite irresponsible to accuse your opponent of cheating because of odds. All I was trying to do is explain that odds are used to predict what will happen, but not as basis to explain why/what just happened.
That's like saying a tornado just blew by New York City. Is a meteorologist going to analyze what just happened based on odds? No. He's going to look at the sequence of events that led to the result. So now, odds are nothing but additional information to give a picture to the general public of how difficult/rare such event happens.
What Eye2+ is suggesting that your opponent may have cheated because the chances of him shooting that well is only 0.002%. What I'm saying is if you really want to know if the person cheated or not, you cant apply the odds anymore, but you would have to look at the individual's sequence of events prior to your match against him.

Btw, congrats on making it to the finals, it still is a heck of an accomplishment.
[/quote]

Thank you very much that's kind of you to say. I only started this thread to see if other players have experienced similar events, I never accused him of cheating and nor would I EVER as it would give myself a bad name within my club as a sore loser etc. I merely felt hard done by in the final playing against a guy who was off 9 blast year and is clearly better than 12, I just felt as if my other results in the tournament were discredited after being beaten like that. But thank you, in recent days I realized that it is an accomplishment to reach the final in a net match play event for a 5 handicap. Unfortunately there is no scratch tournament but I'll try again next year

[wobgon]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381422644' post='7981607']
[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1381422150' post='7981579']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381421774' post='7981555']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1381419378' post='7981379']
[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1381410320' post='7980527']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381409903' post='7980495']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381409440' post='7980445']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381404857' post='7980155']
You are correct in that we have a serious disagreement on the application of the odds.

I know they should apply, and you believe the odds are irrelevant. Anyone can be right about anything if they ignore the facts.
[/quote]

When did i say odds are irrelevant? I said whether they are or not would depend on what you are trying to do.
For example, the charlotte bobcats are playing the LA clippers (no offense to charlotte fans). The odds for bobcats winning is 500:1. The cats win the game 107-98. Its an upset,and you are shocked and in disbelief. What do you do to check whether its true the cats won or not....the odds? You would go check out the box score and analyze what happened. Ok so turns out CP3 had a bad game going 2-15 fgs and 6 assists, and blake griffin left the game early because of injury. Now if you asked me to place money that the cats will beat the clippers, i wouldnt because of the odds.

So back to this 9-12 guy. What would you do to check to see if he is legit? The odds? I would want to know more details on all his previous matches that led him to the finals, and what made him go from a 9 to a 12 in a year. When is the odds relevant? If you asked me if i would bet that this guy would go +1 in 13 holes tomorrow. Hell no i wouldnt. I wouldnt even bet on the cats winning, so why would i bet on something thats 84,000:1.

So the difference between you and I is that you will go check whether it hailed yesterday by looking at the odds....i'm looking for the weather report.
[/quote]

Once again, you and several posters are unable to make a valid comparison.

In your example we know that the Bobcats beat the Clippers. In the OP we know the OP lost. That isn't up for debate. A valid analogy on your part would be the following:

The odds are 84,300:1 that the Clipper threw the game and intentionally lost. Do we assume that the Clipper threw the game, or do we go with the 99.998% probability that the clippers just didn't play well that night?
[/quote]
Have you taken your medication.....If not, please do so as soon as possible...
[/quote]
I'm astounded that he believes he's the only one in this thread who is right about.....everything. How can everyone else be so wrong? Yet here I am, agreeing with most of them......
[/quote]

I'm not the only one that is correct. Ty_webb has been spot on the entire discussion.
[/quote]
Sorry pal. If you had been on this forum a little longer you would realize that he doe's not agree with you, he just disagrees with Kellygreen pretty much no matter what he says.......
[/quote]

It's impressive how you guys refuse to stay on topic.
[/quote]
And what might i ask is the topic???????

[eagle1997]

thanks barry.

three things stand out to me:
- he hit 3/13 greens and got up and down 9/10 times.
- he has an bad fade/slice and compensated well for it.
- he made 2 out 3 putts from 6 to 8 feet.


edit: in my opinion, as i said before, i don't believe he's a sandbagger. just had an exceptional day. you tried your best, got to the finals, and ran into a buzzsaw.

get 'em next year!

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381438594' post='7983125']
Exactly.

The odds of a 12 handicap beating his index by 10 strokes is 83,400 to 1.

Vegas would be nothing but dirt again if people were allowed to bet on those odds that are given out by GHIN. Whom ever came up with those odds is soooo far off and it's proven weekly at any Net event across the USA.

It's pretty easy to tell if you been hustled or not by just watching the players game
Does his swing look repeatable? decent swing for a 12 i must admit
Was he in play all day? Yes he was in play all day
Did he ever look nervous? Not one bit, if anything he thrived on the occassion
How was his short game and mainly 3-6 foot putts? he had a three 6-8 footers, missed 1
What was his weakness? Bad fade/slice but knew had to compensate for it
How was he from 100-50 yards? nothing too close but didnt miss the green either
What type of clubs did he play? he talked about getting a shaft fitted for his new SLDR driver at one point and seemed to know his shaft well
Did the course set up well for him...its our local course so we both know it well enough
Was he generous with giving you putts for a tie that maybe a touch to long? no he was not generous except for one putt
Did you look him up on GHIN and look at recent scores at the course played vs scores played elsewhere? Never heard of GHIN before
What had he win before at this club? Not too sure he doesnt play many single comps
How many greens did he hit in regulation out of those 13? he hit only 3 but got up and down each time except for one hole
What club did he use from 150 yards? 8 iron? not sure, it was match play you don't advertise your club selection
How was his balance? not smooth at all, balance was very poor
Did he ever really hit and poor shots, like really poor... never wayward with a shot, had one chunk shot and ended up with a bogey
Did you know that he was a 9 at one time before the match started, or did you look him up afterwards? he told me himself he was 9 last summer

I always look at 64 net as a number that starts to raise the eyebrows and anything lower is a double brow raise. I can live with the 68-65 range, but cannot with scores lower the this.

Hope that gives you an insight.. Good questions
[/quote]

Sounds about like my game the day I shot a 75 as 13.

[i](He was in The Zone on you, imo.) [/i]

The only differences were:

1. My miss was bi-directional off the tee...but for some reason I really had it under control that day and was able to keep the ball in play all day off the tee.

2. I was a pretty new "13" at the time.

3. I hit more greens that day.

4. My rhthym, tempo and balance were fine. But I had a bad overswing at the top that I was "on" enough that day to time.

[Lionstar]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381099737' post='7962015']
Play gross instead of net. Handicap tournaments are rife with these issues.
[/quote]
+1 and repeat,,play gross not net.

[Ty_Webb]

Can I just take this one back to what we know about this situation and forget about what some people might be misrepresenting about certain other people's opinion here or in other threads.

It's the final of a club knockout tournament. In order to get to the final you have to beat probably 5 other people.
- this one indicates that he's been playing well for a while
A year previous this guy has a handicap of 9. Somehow he's managed to get that from 9 up to 12, which takes at an absolute minimum 21 rounds of shooting more than 2 over his handicap in tournament rounds. If he has a couple of good ones in there, then that number goes up a lot.
- this one indicates that he's been playing badly in tournaments for a while
Barry88 tells us that this guy doesn't play in many single comps.
- that suggests to me that he plays in pairs events (where one's handicap is not going to change). I'd be interested to know how he's done in those events. This one would ring alarm bells for me that he might be massaging his handicap.
Barry88 tells us that the guy is comfortable in a tournament setting - indeed seems to thrive on it.
- that's reasonable, but it doesn't seem to hang terribly well with the going up three shots in the past 12 months
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship
- that's possible for a 12 handicap, but unlikely, especially in tournament conditions.
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship and rather than completing his career round, he walked in.
- that one smells funky to me too

Bottom line - was he a sandbagger? Who knows. Would I accuse him of it? No way. Would I go home thinking that I got hosed? Probably. There is too much here that doesn't fit. He's playing well in the matchplay knockout that doesn't affect his handicap (repeatedly - he won every round he played). He's playing badly in the tournament rounds that do affect his handicap (at least 21 of them in the past year, more than likely more than that). He's indifferent about finishing what should be a round to be savoured. Take that for what you will.

And I didn't mention odds once.

[Barry88]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381443313' post='7983489']
Can I just take this one back to what we know about this situation and forget about what some people might be misrepresenting about certain other people's opinion here or in other threads.

It's the final of a club knockout tournament. In order to get to the final you have to beat probably 5 other people.
- this one indicates that he's been playing well for a while
A year previous this guy has a handicap of 9. Somehow he's managed to get that from 9 up to 12, which takes at an absolute minimum 21 rounds of shooting more than 2 over his handicap in tournament rounds. If he has a couple of good ones in there, then that number goes up a lot.
- this one indicates that he's been playing badly in tournaments for a while
Barry88 tells us that this guy doesn't play in many single comps.
- that suggests to me that he plays in pairs events (where one's handicap is not going to change). I'd be interested to know how he's done in those events. This one would ring alarm bells for me that he might be massaging his handicap.
Barry88 tells us that the guy is comfortable in a tournament setting - indeed seems to thrive on it.
- that's reasonable, but it doesn't seem to hang terribly well with the going up three shots in the past 12 months
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship
- that's possible for a 12 handicap, but unlikely, especially in tournament conditions.
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship and rather than completing his career round, he walked in.
- that one smells funky to me too

Bottom line - was he a sandbagger? Who knows. Would I accuse him of it? No way. Would I go home thinking that I got hosed? Probably. There is too much here that doesn't fit. He's playing well in the matchplay knockout that doesn't affect his handicap (repeatedly - he won every round he played). He's playing badly in the tournament rounds that do affect his handicap (at least 21 of them in the past year, more than likely more than that). He's indifferent about finishing what should be a round to be savoured. Take that for what you will.

And I didn't mention odds once.
[/quote]

haha no you didn't even mention odds other guys have mentioned that CONGU don't require you to post a score in match play which is correct, even if he did want to carry on and finish the round it would have no bearing on his handicap. His friend/caddy on the day is on the club handicap committee and I mentioned to him that his handicap will need to be reviewed after today and he agreed, so hopefully it'll be rectified.

I agree with everything you said in your post. I did feel hard done by to lose 6&5 after winning 4 matches to get to the final. What struck me the most is that he managed to shoot +1 under the conditions of a match play final so he was obviously comfortable and confident in his game, a true 12 handicap would not have portrayed these characteristics in my opinion.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381443932' post='7983565']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381443313' post='7983489']
Can I just take this one back to what we know about this situation and forget about what some people might be misrepresenting about certain other people's opinion here or in other threads.

It's the final of a club knockout tournament. In order to get to the final you have to beat probably 5 other people.
- this one indicates that he's been playing well for a while
A year previous this guy has a handicap of 9. Somehow he's managed to get that from 9 up to 12, which takes at an absolute minimum 21 rounds of shooting more than 2 over his handicap in tournament rounds. If he has a couple of good ones in there, then that number goes up a lot.
- this one indicates that he's been playing badly in tournaments for a while
Barry88 tells us that this guy doesn't play in many single comps.
- that suggests to me that he plays in pairs events (where one's handicap is not going to change). I'd be interested to know how he's done in those events. This one would ring alarm bells for me that he might be massaging his handicap.
Barry88 tells us that the guy is comfortable in a tournament setting - indeed seems to thrive on it.
- that's reasonable, but it doesn't seem to hang terribly well with the going up three shots in the past 12 months
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship
- that's possible for a 12 handicap, but unlikely, especially in tournament conditions.
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship and rather than completing his career round, he walked in.
- that one smells funky to me too

Bottom line - was he a sandbagger? Who knows. Would I accuse him of it? No way. Would I go home thinking that I got hosed? Probably. There is too much here that doesn't fit. He's playing well in the matchplay knockout that doesn't affect his handicap (repeatedly - he won every round he played). He's playing badly in the tournament rounds that do affect his handicap (at least 21 of them in the past year, more than likely more than that). He's indifferent about finishing what should be a round to be savoured. Take that for what you will.

And I didn't mention odds once.
[/quote]

haha no you didn't even mention odds other guys have mentioned that CONGU don't require you to post a score in match play which is correct, even if he did want to carry on and finish the round it would have no bearing on his handicap. His friend/caddy on the day is on the club handicap committee and I mentioned to him that his handicap will need to be reviewed after today and he agreed, so hopefully it'll be rectified.

I agree with everything you said in your post. I did feel hard done by to lose 6&5 after winning 4 matches to get to the final. What struck me the most is that he managed to shoot +1 under the conditions of a match play final so he was obviously comfortable and confident in his game, a true 12 handicap would not have portrayed these characteristics in my opinion.
[/quote]

It wasn't my intention to imply that he carry on so he could post a score. I'm just thinking about how I would be if I were let's say 6 under my handicap after 13 holes and playing well, even in a friendly game. Wild horses couldn't stop me finishing that round off.

All that said, it sounds like you dealt with this very well and I think a little nudge at the guy on the handicap committee is well in order. People at my club have been cut significantly for less. They weren't happy about it, but that's not that surprising. I would also definitely not be averse to asking the guy if he's got his handicap down yet at every opportunity. I'm much more passive aggressive in real life than on here

[Barry88]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381444417' post='7983611']
[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381443932' post='7983565']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381443313' post='7983489']
Can I just take this one back to what we know about this situation and forget about what some people might be misrepresenting about certain other people's opinion here or in other threads.

It's the final of a club knockout tournament. In order to get to the final you have to beat probably 5 other people.
- this one indicates that he's been playing well for a while
A year previous this guy has a handicap of 9. Somehow he's managed to get that from 9 up to 12, which takes at an absolute minimum 21 rounds of shooting more than 2 over his handicap in tournament rounds. If he has a couple of good ones in there, then that number goes up a lot.
- this one indicates that he's been playing badly in tournaments for a while
Barry88 tells us that this guy doesn't play in many single comps.
- that suggests to me that he plays in pairs events (where one's handicap is not going to change). I'd be interested to know how he's done in those events. This one would ring alarm bells for me that he might be massaging his handicap.
Barry88 tells us that the guy is comfortable in a tournament setting - indeed seems to thrive on it.
- that's reasonable, but it doesn't seem to hang terribly well with the going up three shots in the past 12 months
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship
- that's possible for a 12 handicap, but unlikely, especially in tournament conditions.
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship and rather than completing his career round, he walked in.
- that one smells funky to me too

Bottom line - was he a sandbagger? Who knows. Would I accuse him of it? No way. Would I go home thinking that I got hosed? Probably. There is too much here that doesn't fit. He's playing well in the matchplay knockout that doesn't affect his handicap (repeatedly - he won every round he played). He's playing badly in the tournament rounds that do affect his handicap (at least 21 of them in the past year, more than likely more than that). He's indifferent about finishing what should be a round to be savoured. Take that for what you will.

And I didn't mention odds once.
[/quote]

haha no you didn't even mention odds other guys have mentioned that CONGU don't require you to post a score in match play which is correct, even if he did want to carry on and finish the round it would have no bearing on his handicap. His friend/caddy on the day is on the club handicap committee and I mentioned to him that his handicap will need to be reviewed after today and he agreed, so hopefully it'll be rectified.

I agree with everything you said in your post. I did feel hard done by to lose 6&5 after winning 4 matches to get to the final. What struck me the most is that he managed to shoot +1 under the conditions of a match play final so he was obviously comfortable and confident in his game, a true 12 handicap would not have portrayed these characteristics in my opinion.
[/quote]

It wasn't my intention to imply that he carry on so he could post a score. I'm just thinking about how I would be if I were let's say 6 under my handicap after 13 holes and playing well, even in a friendly game. Wild horses couldn't stop me finishing that round off.

All that said, it sounds like you dealt with this very well and I think a little nudge at the guy on the handicap committee is well in order. People at my club have been cut significantly for less. They weren't happy about it, but that's not that surprising. I would also definitely not be averse to asking the guy if he's got his handicap down yet at every opportunity. I'm much more passive aggressive in real life than on here
[/quote]

Well I tried to maintain some class even though I was fairly annoyed at the whole situation, I mean who wouldn't be after playing your a** off to get to the final and beating guys who you've to give shots to as well. I really wanted to win but it wasn't to be, WRX is the only place where I've mentioned the situation, I wouldn't dare speak of this to others at the club in case word got out that I was a bad loser. It didn't help matters either that I never like that guy, he is a loud mouth and not very popular amongst my fellow members, at least a handful of people I spoke to said they didn't like him and wanted me to win.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381444816' post='7983645']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381444417' post='7983611']
[quote name='Barry88' timestamp='1381443932' post='7983565']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381443313' post='7983489']
Can I just take this one back to what we know about this situation and forget about what some people might be misrepresenting about certain other people's opinion here or in other threads.

It's the final of a club knockout tournament. In order to get to the final you have to beat probably 5 other people.
- this one indicates that he's been playing well for a while
A year previous this guy has a handicap of 9. Somehow he's managed to get that from 9 up to 12, which takes at an absolute minimum 21 rounds of shooting more than 2 over his handicap in tournament rounds. If he has a couple of good ones in there, then that number goes up a lot.
- this one indicates that he's been playing badly in tournaments for a while
Barry88 tells us that this guy doesn't play in many single comps.
- that suggests to me that he plays in pairs events (where one's handicap is not going to change). I'd be interested to know how he's done in those events. This one would ring alarm bells for me that he might be massaging his handicap.
Barry88 tells us that the guy is comfortable in a tournament setting - indeed seems to thrive on it.
- that's reasonable, but it doesn't seem to hang terribly well with the going up three shots in the past 12 months
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship
- that's possible for a 12 handicap, but unlikely, especially in tournament conditions.
He shot +1 through 13 holes in the final of the club championship and rather than completing his career round, he walked in.
- that one smells funky to me too

Bottom line - was he a sandbagger? Who knows. Would I accuse him of it? No way. Would I go home thinking that I got hosed? Probably. There is too much here that doesn't fit. He's playing well in the matchplay knockout that doesn't affect his handicap (repeatedly - he won every round he played). He's playing badly in the tournament rounds that do affect his handicap (at least 21 of them in the past year, more than likely more than that). He's indifferent about finishing what should be a round to be savoured. Take that for what you will.

And I didn't mention odds once.
[/quote]

haha no you didn't even mention odds other guys have mentioned that CONGU don't require you to post a score in match play which is correct, even if he did want to carry on and finish the round it would have no bearing on his handicap. His friend/caddy on the day is on the club handicap committee and I mentioned to him that his handicap will need to be reviewed after today and he agreed, so hopefully it'll be rectified.

I agree with everything you said in your post. I did feel hard done by to lose 6&5 after winning 4 matches to get to the final. What struck me the most is that he managed to shoot +1 under the conditions of a match play final so he was obviously comfortable and confident in his game, a true 12 handicap would not have portrayed these characteristics in my opinion.
[/quote]

It wasn't my intention to imply that he carry on so he could post a score. I'm just thinking about how I would be if I were let's say 6 under my handicap after 13 holes and playing well, even in a friendly game. Wild horses couldn't stop me finishing that round off.

All that said, it sounds like you dealt with this very well and I think a little nudge at the guy on the handicap committee is well in order. People at my club have been cut significantly for less. They weren't happy about it, but that's not that surprising. I would also definitely not be averse to asking the guy if he's got his handicap down yet at every opportunity. I'm much more passive aggressive in real life than on here
[/quote]

Well I tried to maintain some class even though I was fairly annoyed at the whole situation, I mean who wouldn't be after playing your a** off to get to the final and beating guys who you've to give shots to as well. I really wanted to win but it wasn't to be, WRX is the only place where I've mentioned the situation, I wouldn't dare speak of this to others at the club in case word got out that I was a bad loser. It didn't help matters either that I never like that guy, he is a loud mouth and not very popular amongst my fellow members, at least a handful of people I spoke to said they didn't like him and wanted me to win.
[/quote]
Barry, the more you say about him and that round, the more I am leaning away from the original feeling I got from your initial post.
While I strongly maintain my opinion that this kind of thing has been honestly and ethically done and will continue to be done by many more golfers than the oddsmakers give credit for, I am beginning to doubt that your match was one of those magical moments, as kg so eloquently puts it.
Put this behind you now.You have next year to look forward to.

[eagle1997]

3/13 greens in regulation. poor balance. plays a bad slice. [u]told[/u] you that he was a 9 last year. [u]told[/u] his friends that he had been playing better recently. plays in the congu system of handicapping... these are not the marks of a sandbagger.

got up and down 9/10 times. made 2/3 6-8 footers... these are indicators of a career round.

the key questions are in regards to his past history in these types of tournaments/matches. has he won before? has he ever been accused of sandbagging before? has he ever been accused of being a cheater (submitting wrong scores, fluffing the ball, magically 'finding' the ball, etc.)?

still hard for me to believe that someone would sacrifice a full year's worth of golf to raise their handicap enough so that they might have a chance to win the net division of the club championship.

[TripleSingle]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381438409' post='7983101']
[quote name='jihunyu' timestamp='1381427812' post='7981973']
[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381426990' post='7981909']
So let's take this to an extreme shall we. Suppose that some guy enters a tournament at Bethpage Black. It's played from the very tips and he enters with a handicap index of 30. Slope rating is 146, so his course handicap for the day is 39. The course rating is about 76 I think, so that would mean he "should" shoot 115. He shoots 68. What investigation do you think we would need to do to determine that this person is in fact sandbagging? Do you think the odds prove it?
[/quote]

So for this extreme example, lets just assume the odds are 1 billion : 1. Odds don't prove anything. In order to prove whether this guy is sandbagging or not would be by looking at the sequence of events, which in this case, would be looking at everything he did from 1 to 18. Did he commit any rule violations, such as not counting OBs, not finishing the holes by lifting up 3 footers, etc. What was the luck factor; did his ball, which could have been OB, hit a tree which put the ball back into the fairway, etc.

Now lets say the guy did in fact cheat his way to the 68. Did the odds prove it? No. The review of sequence of events did.

Now lets say the guy did hit a legit 68. Then that means that he's the one in 1 billion: [u][b]1[/b][/u]
[/quote]

There is no further information except that the 68 was a legitimate score. No cheating on the course, ball played down under tournament conditions. The only thing in question regarding his score is his handicap.

If someone came in with a net 29, you'd really be asking if he got lucky?
[/quote]

no, i'd be asking how the hell does someone do that. who wouldnt be skeptical. ofcourse people are going to want proof.
how a person reacts would be based on personal experiences and their perceptions of what is a normal range.
I've seen numerous times former single handicappers shoot low scores, or go on hot streaks. now if anyone experienced something with super outrageous odds, people are not going to giving benefit of the doubt, theyre gonna want proof. If it has never been done before, people are going to want proof. Whether thats a 30 guy shooting 68 at Bethpage or a scientist making a new discovery.

[HighSpeedScene]

Odds are the guys index is not accurate. That has to be something everyone agrees with. Not that he's a liar or a cheat or a sandbagger or anything like that.

Is there any objection to the simple observation that anyone beating their index by that much, odds are the handicap is not accurate?