Match play final.. Was I hustled?

[QEight]

[quote name='eagle1997' timestamp='1381340508' post='7976383']
i think you are mis-reading eye2+'s comment. he's saying (correct me if i am wrong eye2!) that it is less likely that a guy who is trending towards a 12 could shoot the score that he did. replace the word "post" with "shoot" from his response and you'll see what i mean.
[/quote]

I read it correctly first and then next time I mis-read it. doh. Sorry and thx.

[HighSpeedScene]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

Every that understands the odds and how they work would see that it is a guaranteed losing proposition.

[stage1350]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.

[agray94]

sandbagging is an art. People work hard at maintaining a certain handicap to help win tourneys. Missing putts on certain holes that are already won or lost to outright cheating. A guy I know once told me, he plays the "tips" but enters his score from the whites to keep his handicap up.
Sad part is that the game of golf is based on being a gentlemen. Fudging on your handicap is absolutely no different than cheating on strokes or improving your lie.
Most players would never even think of doing that in a tournament but far too many manipulate their handicaps- which is garbage!

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.

[HighSpeedScene]

Can I get a $100M marker at the stage casino where my odds are greater than 99%?

[stage1350]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381356952' post='7977709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.
[/quote]

Your example shows that you have a chance to lose as well. Which is exactly what happened.

Ask the people that have played in the WSOP how many of them got cracked on the river with a 99% chance of a win. They all remember when they got cracked when their opponent only had one out...and that's what showed on the river.

Improbable is not the same as impossible.

[agray94]

sure it could happen but unfortunately too many do cheat their handicaps, so it is usually the first thing that comes to your mind. wish that wasn't the case and for the 1 in 100 that shoot like that legitimately it a shame but far too often it's a flat out cheat.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381357790' post='7977797']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381356952' post='7977709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.
[/quote]

Your example shows that you have a chance to lose as well. Which is exactly what happened.

Ask the people that have played in the WSOP how many of them got cracked on the river with a 99% chance of a win. They all remember when they got cracked when their opponent only had one out...and that's what showed on the river.

Improbable is not the same as impossible.
[/quote]

Put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you $10,000 and I'll take the 99.998% odds and you take the .002% odds.

[wobgon]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381363677' post='7978339']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381357790' post='7977797']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381356952' post='7977709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.
[/quote]

Your example shows that you have a chance to lose as well. Which is exactly what happened.

Ask the people that have played in the WSOP how many of them got cracked on the river with a 99% chance of a win. They all remember when they got cracked when their opponent only had one out...and that's what showed on the river.

Improbable is not the same as impossible.
[/quote]

Put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you $10,000 and I'll take the 99.998% odds and you take the .002% odds.
[/quote]
Please just go away......

[Parker0065]

This thread has gone way off in the woods about casino's and odds, but what happened to the OP is not crazy over the top. Did his opponent sand bag him, probably a little but without knowing every single detail it's hard for anyone to really know.

A couple years ago I was setting in the clubhouse with another scratch golf member and we had a long discussion on the subject. In our members match play tournament they use 80% handicaps and as scratch players we are giving strokes to everyone unless we end up matched against each other. We both concurred that without a doubt when it comes to handicapping Match Play the lesser player receiving strokes always has the advantage. The biggest reason is simply they can have that quadruple bogey a couple times and still be in the match. On the other end of the spectrum I've seen the better players that are giving strokes put too much pressure on themselves from the start and they struggle out of the gate thinking they have to birdie every hole.

It takes patience and experience to not panic or feel pressured when giving strokes. This year I had a match against a 20 handicap that I had to give a stroke a hole. I started out very poorly bogeying the first two holes giving him a quick 2 up lead. I knew I had to play better but I wasn't going to panic and start shooting at every flag. Sure enough on #3 tee he blows it O.B. and after birdies on #4 and #5 I had the lead and never looked back.

Higher handicaps getting strokes does not mean they are always going to win or that their going to win more times than not. My record in our members match play giving up all the strokes I have to give is 12 wins and 3 losses. I've made it to the final 4 every time and to the Championship match once but have never won the title. The players that I have difficulty beating are the 9-12 handicap range because they can have a better than average day and I have a slightly less than average day and I lose.

As far as the OP goes he did not give us enough information in how the round really played out but one thing that so many club players make a mistake in is "giving putts"! They watch the pro's on TV and listen to claims on the internet about how to supposedly "get into somebody's head" by giving them putts early. For a Club golfer that is about the dumbest thing you can do, and especially if your the one giving the strokes it's even more dumb. Maybe if it's a straight up match with no strokes given but the fact is your not pro's and under pressure club players are going to miss some 2 footers!
I tell everyone I play against to not take it the wrong way but your going to be doing lots of putting out today since I'm giving x-amount of strokes. I'll give putts inside a foot but a two footer with any break at all for a high handicap player is a great opportunity for me to win a hole. I've seen it played out over and over again and once they miss a short one then they feel pressure on their lag putting to get it inside a foot or this a-hole(me) is going to make them putt out. It's just such a huge mistake for club golfers to try and strategize in match play like a PGA Pro would. They are two totally different worlds!


I have a very similar story to the OP's the year I made it to the Championship Match. I had to give 10 shots to my opponent and when the match ended on #14 he was +2 over par gross for the day. He played exceptional and I played very poorly so I knew to myself that I had not played my best or even decent. BUT,,,,Here's the kicker! I shake his hand on #14 and we both agree to just play in from there. So after this guy played one of the best rounds of his life up to the 14th hole and is +2 for the day he "double bogeys" every single hole coming in and walks in the club house and announces he shot an 82 for the day in winning our match.
Up to the 14th hole I had genuinely felt good for the guy in that he had played so well and was going to be crowned champion! In those last 4 holes that meant nothing other than him having a chance to shoot the round of his life I lost all respect for him. He was obviously three jacking on purpose and made the comment "See, this is how I normally play"! The Light Infantry soldier almost came out of me on the 18th hole and I wanted to smack the stupid out of him but I again just congratulated him and let it go. Bottom line is there's no doubt that he was sandbagging by a shot or two but I also know if I would have played halfway decent I would have won even with his shenanigans. The worst part is I actually like the guy from a social point of view but every time I see him I can only think "Dirtbag"!



These things go on everywhere so if you don't like it, as many have already stated, don't play net events!!!!

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381364165' post='7978367']
This thread has gone way off in the woods about casino's and odds, but what happened to the OP is not crazy over the top. Did his opponent sand bag him, probably a little but without knowing every single detail it's hard for anyone to really know.

A couple years ago I was setting in the clubhouse with another scratch golf member and we had a long discussion on the subject. In our members match play tournament they use 80% handicaps and as scratch players we are giving strokes to everyone unless we end up matched against each other. We both concurred that without a doubt when it comes to handicapping Match Play the lesser player receiving strokes always has the advantage. The biggest reason is simply they can have that quadruple bogey a couple times and still be in the match. On the other end of the spectrum I've seen the better players that are giving strokes put too much pressure on themselves from the start and they struggle out of the gate thinking they have to birdie every hole.

It takes patience and experience to not panic or feel pressured when giving strokes. This year I had a match against a 20 handicap that I had to give a stroke a hole. I started out very poorly bogeying the first two holes giving him a quick 2 up lead. I knew I had to play better but I wasn't going to panic and start shooting at every flag. Sure enough on #3 tee he blows it O.B. and after birdies on #4 and #5 I had the lead and never looked back.

Higher handicaps getting strokes does not mean they are always going to win or that their going to win more times than not. My record in our members match play giving up all the strokes I have to give is 12 wins and 3 losses. I've made it to the final 4 every time and to the Championship match once but have never won the title. The players that I have difficulty beating are the 9-12 handicap range because they can have a better than average day and I have a slightly less than average day and I lose.

As far as the OP goes he did not give us enough information in how the round really played out but one thing that so many club players make a mistake in is "giving putts"! They watch the pro's on TV and listen to claims on the internet about how to supposedly "get into somebody's head" by giving them putts early. For a Club golfer that is about the dumbest thing you can do, and especially if your the one giving the strokes it's even more dumb. Maybe if it's a straight up match with no strokes given but the fact is your not pro's and under pressure club players are going to miss some 2 footers!
I tell everyone I play against to not take it the wrong way but your going to be doing lots of putting out today since I'm giving x-amount of strokes. I'll give putts inside a foot but a two footer with any break at all for a high handicap player is a great opportunity for me to win a hole. I've seen it played out over and over again and once they miss a short one then they feel pressure on their lag putting to get it inside a foot or this a-hole(me) is going to make them putt out. It's just such a huge mistake for club golfers to try and strategize in match play like a PGA Pro would. They are two totally different worlds!


I have a very similar story to the OP's the year I made it to the Championship Match. I had to give 10 shots to my opponent and when the match ended on #14 he was +2 over par gross for the day. He played exceptional and I played very poorly so I knew to myself that I had not played my best or even decent. BUT,,,,Here's the kicker! I shake his hand on #14 and we both agree to just play in from there. So after this guy played one of the best rounds of his life up to the 14th hole and is +2 for the day he "double bogeys" every single hole coming in and walks in the club house and announces he shot an 82 for the day in winning our match.
Up to the 14th hole I had genuinely felt good for the guy in that he had played so well and was going to be crowned champion! In those last 4 holes that meant nothing other than him having a chance to shoot the round of his life I lost all respect for him. He was obviously three jacking on purpose and made the comment "See, this is how I normally play"! The Light Infantry soldier almost came out of me on the 18th hole and I wanted to smack the stupid out of him but I again just congratulated him and let it go. Bottom line is there's no doubt that he was sandbagging by a shot or two but I also know if I would have played halfway decent I would have won even with his shenanigans. The worst part is I actually like the guy from a social point of view but every time I see him I can only think "Dirtbag"!



These things go on everywhere so if you don't like it, as many have already stated, don't play net events!!!!
[/quote]

The problem with this entire debate is that most posters are acting as though legitimate 12 handicappers are shooting pars or birdies most holes and just having 3/4 blow up holes where they triple bogey. On a 70/120 course your average 10 best scores would have to average out to roughly 83 to be a legitimate 12 handicap. People who are consistently shooting an 83 are most likely playing bogey golf with several pars and birdies sprinkled in.

Scratch golfers are inherently at an disadvantage because they are much more likely to be honest about their handicap because that is something to be proud, or they are really a 2-3 with a vanity cap.

[Parker0065]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381366152' post='7978521']
[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381364165' post='7978367']
This thread has gone way off in the woods about casino's and odds, but what happened to the OP is not crazy over the top. Did his opponent sand bag him, probably a little but without knowing every single detail it's hard for anyone to really know.

A couple years ago I was setting in the clubhouse with another scratch golf member and we had a long discussion on the subject. In our members match play tournament they use 80% handicaps and as scratch players we are giving strokes to everyone unless we end up matched against each other. We both concurred that without a doubt when it comes to handicapping Match Play the lesser player receiving strokes always has the advantage. The biggest reason is simply they can have that quadruple bogey a couple times and still be in the match. On the other end of the spectrum I've seen the better players that are giving strokes put too much pressure on themselves from the start and they struggle out of the gate thinking they have to birdie every hole.

It takes patience and experience to not panic or feel pressured when giving strokes. This year I had a match against a 20 handicap that I had to give a stroke a hole. I started out very poorly bogeying the first two holes giving him a quick 2 up lead. I knew I had to play better but I wasn't going to panic and start shooting at every flag. Sure enough on #3 tee he blows it O.B. and after birdies on #4 and #5 I had the lead and never looked back.

Higher handicaps getting strokes does not mean they are always going to win or that their going to win more times than not. My record in our members match play giving up all the strokes I have to give is 12 wins and 3 losses. I've made it to the final 4 every time and to the Championship match once but have never won the title. The players that I have difficulty beating are the 9-12 handicap range because they can have a better than average day and I have a slightly less than average day and I lose.

As far as the OP goes he did not give us enough information in how the round really played out but one thing that so many club players make a mistake in is "giving putts"! They watch the pro's on TV and listen to claims on the internet about how to supposedly "get into somebody's head" by giving them putts early. For a Club golfer that is about the dumbest thing you can do, and especially if your the one giving the strokes it's even more dumb. Maybe if it's a straight up match with no strokes given but the fact is your not pro's and under pressure club players are going to miss some 2 footers!
I tell everyone I play against to not take it the wrong way but your going to be doing lots of putting out today since I'm giving x-amount of strokes. I'll give putts inside a foot but a two footer with any break at all for a high handicap player is a great opportunity for me to win a hole. I've seen it played out over and over again and once they miss a short one then they feel pressure on their lag putting to get it inside a foot or this a-hole(me) is going to make them putt out. It's just such a huge mistake for club golfers to try and strategize in match play like a PGA Pro would. They are two totally different worlds!


I have a very similar story to the OP's the year I made it to the Championship Match. I had to give 10 shots to my opponent and when the match ended on #14 he was +2 over par gross for the day. He played exceptional and I played very poorly so I knew to myself that I had not played my best or even decent. BUT,,,,Here's the kicker! I shake his hand on #14 and we both agree to just play in from there. So after this guy played one of the best rounds of his life up to the 14th hole and is +2 for the day he "double bogeys" every single hole coming in and walks in the club house and announces he shot an 82 for the day in winning our match.
Up to the 14th hole I had genuinely felt good for the guy in that he had played so well and was going to be crowned champion! In those last 4 holes that meant nothing other than him having a chance to shoot the round of his life I lost all respect for him. He was obviously three jacking on purpose and made the comment "See, this is how I normally play"! The Light Infantry soldier almost came out of me on the 18th hole and I wanted to smack the stupid out of him but I again just congratulated him and let it go. Bottom line is there's no doubt that he was sandbagging by a shot or two but I also know if I would have played halfway decent I would have won even with his shenanigans. The worst part is I actually like the guy from a social point of view but every time I see him I can only think "Dirtbag"!



These things go on everywhere so if you don't like it, as many have already stated, don't play net events!!!!
[/quote]

The problem with this entire debate is that most posters are acting as though legitimate 12 handicappers are shooting pars or birdies most holes and just having 3/4 blow up holes where they triple bogey. On a 70/120 course your average 10 best scores would have to average out to roughly 83 to be a legitimate 12 handicap. People who are consistently shooting an 83 are most likely playing bogey golf with several pars and birdies sprinkled in.

Scratch golfers are inherently at an disadvantage because they are much more likely to be honest about their handicap because that is something to be proud, or they are really a 2-3 with a vanity cap.
[/quote]

I've read all your debates with the others and don't care about getting into that but I will say that your really comparing apples to oranges! Trying to compare how a golfer plays a "Match Play" round of golf versus a "Stroke Play" round of golf are two different animals. In general a player in match play knows they can blow up a hole or two and still win the match and have a successful day. That same player in stroke play knows that they have to avoid those blow ups at all costs to have a good day, so by default there is a lot less pressure on them from a purely "Scoring" point of view in Match Play!

If you don't believe that then that's cool by me. I've seen it played out over and over again in my 35 years of tournament experience!
In fact at my own home course there is plenty of data with guy's that have shot 80-85 in the Match Play and 90-96 in the Club Championship stroke play event.

[stage1350]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381363677' post='7978339']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381357790' post='7977797']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381356952' post='7977709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.
[/quote]

Your example shows that you have a chance to lose as well. Which is exactly what happened.

Ask the people that have played in the WSOP how many of them got cracked on the river with a 99% chance of a win. They all remember when they got cracked when their opponent only had one out...and that's what showed on the river.

Improbable is not the same as impossible.
[/quote]

Put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you $10,000 and I'll take the 99.998% odds and you take the .002% odds.
[/quote]

I already gave you my offer and my odds. Feel free to gamble if you think that your numbers are unbeatable. You can get below 1% house advantage on BJ or dice if you know how to play.

Or you can continue to live in fantasyland.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381366740' post='7978577']

I've read all your debates with the others and don't care about getting into that but I will say that your really comparing apples to oranges! Trying to compare how a golfer plays a "Match Play" round of golf versus a "Stroke Play" round of golf are two different animals. In general a player in match play knows they can blow up a hole or two and still win the match and have a successful day. That same player in stroke play knows that they have to avoid those blow ups at all costs to have a good day, so by default there is a lot less pressure on them from a purely "Scoring" point of view!

If you don't believe that then that's cool by me. I've seen it played out over and over again in my 35 years of tournament play!
[/quote]

It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that your argument doesn't make sense. I get it that there is less pressure per hole, that doesn't mean you're suddenly shooting a birdie when you normally struggle to get a par.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381366874' post='7978593']


I already gave you my offer and my odds. Feel free to gamble if you think that your numbers are unbeatable. You can get below 1% house advantage on BJ or dice if you know how to play.

Or you can continue to live in fantasyland.

[/quote]

I'd be lying if I said your inability to understand you're not making sense doesn't bother me.

[Ty_Webb]

[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381366874' post='7978593']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381363677' post='7978339']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381357790' post='7977797']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381356952' post='7977709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.
[/quote]

Your example shows that you have a chance to lose as well. Which is exactly what happened.

Ask the people that have played in the WSOP how many of them got cracked on the river with a 99% chance of a win. They all remember when they got cracked when their opponent only had one out...and that's what showed on the river.

Improbable is not the same as impossible.
[/quote]

Put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you $10,000 and I'll take the 99.998% odds and you take the .002% odds.
[/quote]

I already gave you my offer and my odds. Feel free to gamble if you think that your numbers are unbeatable. You can get below 1% house advantage on BJ or dice if you know how to play.

Or you can continue to live in fantasyland.
[/quote]

That's incredibly generous of you to offer to gamble with him when you have the advantage. What exactly is your point? That if you bet against the house for a long time, you'll lose? Thanks for sharing that one. If you're offering an even pay out on a gamble that I have a 99.998% chance of winning (because strange things happen sometimes), then I'm in.

[Parker0065]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381367080' post='7978617']
[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381366740' post='7978577']
I've read all your debates with the others and don't care about getting into that but I will say that your really comparing apples to oranges! Trying to compare how a golfer plays a "Match Play" round of golf versus a "Stroke Play" round of golf are two different animals. In general a player in match play knows they can blow up a hole or two and still win the match and have a successful day. That same player in stroke play knows that they have to avoid those blow ups at all costs to have a good day, so by default there is a lot less pressure on them from a purely "Scoring" point of view!

If you don't believe that then that's cool by me. I've seen it played out over and over again in my 35 years of tournament play!
[/quote]

It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that your argument doesn't make sense. I get it that there is less pressure per hole, that doesn't mean you're suddenly shooting a birdie when you normally struggle to get a par.
[/quote]

It's OK Eye2+,
You have it all twisted around by the way. When I lose a hole to someone I had to give 10-20 shots to, 99.9% of the time it's because we both tied with par but they win the hole with the handicap stroke given. I've never went out and been buried by a 10-12 handicapper making birdie after birdie, lol! In one of my other matches this year I went up against a 5 handicap and had to give him 4 shots. His only birdie of the day was on #2, and I lit him up.
It just sounds like you don't have a good understanding of how match play plays out depending on who's playing and at what handicap level. I can easily be 3 down after 9 up against a guy that gets a shot a hole and makes 3 pars and 6 bogeys and I make 9 straight pars.


[color=#FF0000][size=4][b]You just need to go out and get more tournament experience and you'll understand better![/b][/size][/color]

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381368068' post='7978711']
It's OK Eye2+,
You have it all twisted around by the way. When I lose a hole to someone I had to give 10-20 shots to almost always 99.9% of the time because we both tied with par but they win the hole with the handicap stroke given. I've never went out and been buried by a 10-12 handicapper making birdie after birdie, lol!

[color=#FF0000][size=4][b]You just need to go out and get more tournament experience and you'll understand better![/b][/size][/color]
[/quote]

The lack of logic in this thread is appalling.

What does the person scoring a par have to do with your argument that match play will allow you to shoot better on a hole than in stroke play?

[Hstead]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381368167' post='7978721']
[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381368068' post='7978711']
It's OK Eye2+,
You have it all twisted around by the way. When I lose a hole to someone I had to give 10-20 shots to almost always 99.9% of the time because we both tied with par but they win the hole with the handicap stroke given. I've never went out and been buried by a 10-12 handicapper making birdie after birdie, lol!

[color=#FF0000][size=4][b]You just need to go out and get more tournament experience and you'll understand better![/b][/size][/color]
[/quote]

The lack of logic in this thread is appalling.

What does the person scoring a par have to do with your argument that match play will allow you to shoot better on a hole than in stroke play?
[/quote]

WOW. Just wow. How many match play tournaments have you played and how many stroke play tournaments have you played in?

[stage1350]

[quote name='Ty_Webb' timestamp='1381368020' post='7978709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381366874' post='7978593']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381363677' post='7978339']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381357790' post='7977797']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381356952' post='7977709']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381355674' post='7977623']
[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]

I'll take my 5.28% house advantage on Roulette and let you play all night.

As for your 0.002%, that's not zero. So as long as there is a chance of it happening, do not whine when it occurs.
[/quote]

Seriously? Do you not realize how this post makes no sense.

You're arguing against me with an example that proves I'm holding the best hand.
[/quote]

Your example shows that you have a chance to lose as well. Which is exactly what happened.

Ask the people that have played in the WSOP how many of them got cracked on the river with a 99% chance of a win. They all remember when they got cracked when their opponent only had one out...and that's what showed on the river.

Improbable is not the same as impossible.
[/quote]

Put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you $10,000 and I'll take the 99.998% odds and you take the .002% odds.
[/quote]

I already gave you my offer and my odds. Feel free to gamble if you think that your numbers are unbeatable. You can get below 1% house advantage on BJ or dice if you know how to play.

Or you can continue to live in fantasyland.
[/quote]

That's incredibly generous of you to offer to gamble with him when you have the advantage. What exactly is your point? That if you bet against the house for a long time, you'll lose? Thanks for sharing that one. If you're offering an even pay out on a gamble that I have a 99.998% chance of winning (because strange things happen sometimes), then I'm in.
[/quote]

Based on his sound logic and number crunching, there is no statistical way that he should be able to win, correct? Yet I can tell you tons of stories where people have beaten the house. It's because statistics do not always match reality.

Otherwise almost none of use have played enough golf to merit a 2nd or 3rd hole in one. Yet, there are plenty of WRXers on here that have posted multiple aces.

You can play fantasy baseball all day long, have all the right moves, and still lose. We play the game because sometimes we don't care what the statistics say.

Or, keep whining that the 0.002% actually happened.

[Parker0065]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381368167' post='7978721']
[quote name='Parker0065' timestamp='1381368068' post='7978711']
It's OK Eye2+,
You have it all twisted around by the way. When I lose a hole to someone I had to give 10-20 shots to almost always 99.9% of the time because we both tied with par but they win the hole with the handicap stroke given. I've never went out and been buried by a 10-12 handicapper making birdie after birdie, lol!

[color=#FF0000][size=4][b]You just need to go out and get more tournament experience and you'll understand better![/b][/size][/color]
[/quote]

The lack of logic in this thread is appalling.

What does the person scoring a par have to do with your argument that match play will allow you to shoot better on a hole than in stroke play?
[/quote]

LOL!
[color=#FF0000][size=4][b]You just need to go out and get more tournament experience and you'll understand better![/b][/size][/color]

[ND2005]

I have nothing but further anecdote to add to this conversation. And as we know, the plural of anecdote is not data...

But not all 12 handicaps are created equal. My dad plays to a 11 or so. But he's also a former professional baseball player with pretty exceptional hand eye coordination even for his age. His golf skill is really only limited by the number of rounds he plays and that he doesn't practice much.

But on any given day if he gets ho the can play well. I've been out on the course with him for several 74-75 rounds.

He doesn't play anything more competitive than a regular weekend foursome with his buddies so he has minimal incentive to inflate his handicap.

[ND2005]

I have nothing but further anecdote to add to this conversation. And as we know, the plural of anecdote is not data...

But not all 12 handicaps are created equal. My dad plays to a 11 or so. But he's also a former professional baseball player with pretty exceptional hand eye coordination even for his age. His golf skill is really only limited by the number of rounds he plays and that he doesn't practice much.

But on any given day if he gets ho the can play well. I've been out on the course with him for several 74-75 rounds.

He doesn't play anything more competitive than a regular weekend foursome with his buddies so he has minimal incentive to inflate his handicap.

[arnold palmtree]

[quote name='ND2005' timestamp='1381376335' post='7979351']
I have nothing but further anecdote to add to this conversation. And as we know, the plural of anecdote is not data...

But not all 12 handicaps are created equal. My dad plays to a 11 or so. But he's also a former professional baseball player with pretty exceptional hand eye coordination even for his age. His golf skill is really only limited by the number of rounds he plays and that he doesn't practice much.

But on any given day if he gets ho the can play well. I've been out on the course with him for several 74-75 rounds.

He doesn't play anything more competitive than a regular weekend foursome with his buddies so he has minimal incentive to inflate his handicap.
[/quote]

That's understandable. It's the unavoidable problem with the handicap system. His 11 isn't really representative of his potential. So he has an advantage over someone who plays a lot of rounds and has a legitimate handicap.

[J_Tizzle]

I missed some of this post but I stand by my earlier comment, doesn't sound like you got sandbagged, but ran into the perfect storm. Having expectations are important when you're a basically giving half a hole to a guy depending on his handicap.

The club should really consider either having multiple divisions of net and gross, or only giving a percentage of handicap due to the inherent nature of match play not being has penal to your final score as stroke play. I bet you play the guy a full 18 with his handicap it ends up being a lot closer stroke wise.

[Club junkie]

[quote name='Eye2+' timestamp='1381337950' post='7976169']
[quote name='stage1350' timestamp='1381335060' post='7975909']
Anyone who wants to quote the odds and have faith in them 100% of the time, bring $10,000 to my casino. I'll comp your hotel and dinner.

We'll see how well you do...
[/quote]

If your casino wants to give me a 99.998% chance of winning. I'll bet every dime I own.
[/quote]


Not to be a smart a$$, but the casino has faith in the odds 100% of the time or they think the player is cheating.

[TripleSingle]

Hey Parker0065, I completely understand what you are saying in your post. As I've also said, we just dont have enough information to come to a verdict, YET. It would be too premature to label anyone as a cheater based on 13 holes.
I apologize because this is going to be long, but please bear with me.

I think what Eye2+ hasn't been able to grasp is that sometimes logic, odds, and experiences do not exactly fit. Yes the odds for a player going -10 are against him, but that doesn't mean we havent had experiences that goes against logic. No one is debating what the odds are Eye2+, I think people are just disagreeing with your [b]APPLICATION[/b] of how odds work. So before Eye2+ goes on about how this thread lacks logic, maybe he needs a lesson on logic itself.
Odds are calculated in 2 ways; statistics and mathematical probabilities. Odds based on statistics only refer to the general population as a whole, and not to an individual. The odds of you getting a royal flush is based on mathematical probabilities of an independent variable that has nothing to do what has happened in the past, nor will it ever change over time as a whole or per individual. The odds of you going -10 are based on statistics of what has already occurred. So what that means is, the odds of you getting a royal flush doesn't matter whether you're playing in Vegas, Atlantic City, or in the basement of your house. Doesn't matter how many royal flushes have come out in the past.

Now by principal, the odds of you going -10 is no different than the odds of you living past 80 years old, or the odds of you getting bitten by a shark. They are based on recorded stats. So lets just assume for demonstration purposes, 1 out of 10 people live past 80, or odds of 9:1. Has those odds changed over time? Im sure it did the past 100 years, due to medical advances, etc. Does that mean all of us face the same odds like we would in getting a royal flush? [b]NO[/b]. That would depend on multiple variables, such as lifestyle, economics, your job, diet, etc. So that means some of us may experience shooting -10 net 50 times in their life, and some may never be able to do it. No different than the odds of a hole-in-one. Some of us may achieve it multiple times, some may never get it. But as a WHOLE, it all evens out.

I think part of this debate has more to do with human nature than what the odds are or what are the problems in the handicapping system. I'm sure some of us had friends who shot exceptionally well, beyond the norms of what he does on average. And when they do, we might say "hey man, nice job. you were really on fire today." But when a person, whom we dont know, does it after playing a round against him, we call him a sandbagger because the odds say that it's highly unlikely. I play for money once a week with a group of friends that consists of 4, a 6 and a 28 guy who normally hits between 98-104. So pretty much a consistent bogey/double bogey player. We give this guy 1 stroke each for 14 holes. Usually in the long run, it all evens out, win some lose some. 3 weeks ago he comes flying out of the gates, and puts on a string of 5 pars. One was a chip-in from about 40 feet, and the 4 pars all coming from 20+ feet putts. In addition, this guy is one of those players who usually needs 2 tries to get out of green-side bunker. He was in the bunker 5 times that day, in which he got out of them in one try 4 times. The 3 of us are looking at each other like "WTF is going on here". Fast forward, he ends up shooting 91 and wins about 27 G's from the 3 of us. Bad feelings? Nope. Because we know it was just his day, chances are he won't be doing that in a while, if ever again, and we gave him credit for that round. Now if you were playing against that guy that day, not knowing his past performances and how he gets his scores, it would be natural to think you just got hustled by a 28 handicapper because he just shot -9. Is it really because of the odds? Or is it because you just don't have enough information to know how he plays.

My point is, 1 round of golf is not indicative of a person's abilities for any level of golf, whether you're a pro or bogey player. Is it enough to raise a few eyebrows, sure why not, but enough to label a person a cheat? And odds have no significance AFTER an event has occurred, because then it would be called a statistic. Odds only matter when you're trying to predict the next event.
If you got [b]10 and Jack of spades[/b], the flop and turn is showing [b]Q-Spade[/b], [b]K-Spade[/b], [color=#ff0000][b]3-Diamond[/b][/color], [color=#ff0000][b]7-Heart[/b][/color][color=#000000], and your opponent raises you, which would put you all-in, this is where odds have significance. What are the odds of you getting any 9 for a straight, or an Ace-spade to get royal flush.[/color]
[color=#000000]Now lets say the flop and turn is showing [b]Q-Spade, King-Spade, Ace-Spade, [/b][/color][color=#ff0000][b]7-Heart[/b][/color][color=#000000]. Does it matter that the odds of you getting a royal flush is 600,000:1. Ofcourse not, because you already got it. [/color]If you knew nothing about golf and never seen golf, and went to watch a round of Jim Furyk, what would you think of him? Well that would depend whether you saw him get cut at the US Open after a 2nd round 79, or when he shot 59 at BMW. You either will think he sucks, or he's the best golfer in the world. But we all know he doesnt suck, and Tiger Woods is the #1 player in the world. Are there sandbaggers out there, ofcourse, but to accuse someone being a cheater after 1 round of golf because the odds as a whole say otherwise, means you are also discrediting those individuals who are honest.

Again, apologies for the long rant.

[Hstead]

Very well stated jihnunyu.

[xxjonesyxx]

My two penneth......

I think a lot of the debate is irrelevant as the handicapping system is so different in the UK and ire, from our Amercian friends...

If they guy was a 12 over here, his handicap would be 8/9 in the states, if he was a 9, that would equate to 5 or 6, which means being 1 over after 13 is more reasonable

Saying that though 'Sandbagging' is alive and well over here, though it takes a diffent format. If you play 3 qualifying events (Stableford and strokeplay) a year you have an active handicap. you can play as many pairs events and amam's and matchplays as you like and your handicap will remain unaltered.

Neil