The NBA basketball thread 2013-2014

[Dizz]

I could eat my words if something crazy happens in the final 2 minutes but its games like this (and last year's East Finals) where its really hard to understand people calling Paul George an elite player. I think he started the night 1-12 from the floor.... now 4-16 with key turnovers and poor shot selection.

Cavs with the #1 pick again.... LUCKY!

[scratchswinger]

Sadly for Cleveland the lottery is the only thing they will ever win.

[RJRJRJ]

The problem with a guaranteed extension from Love is that he won't do it. He gets more $$ by waiting it out until FA. That means that teams will have to do what the Lakers did with Dwight and just hope that he is willing to stay. Its a gamble for sure. How many teams can actually be confident that he'll stay? 1, 2, 3, and they still might not be right. Id guess that he signs with somebody and becomes a FA next season. At that point, he'll' have a lot of teams willing to offer him a max deal and he'll have his pick of the litter.

[RJRJRJ]

...

[mnplayer]

It's the same situation at the end of the year no matter where he plays this year. He'll assess based on this season and decide whether he thinks the team is good enough to stay long term.

[tocino]

[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1400679768' post='9338701']
It's the same situation at the end of the year no matter where he plays this year. He'll assess based on this season and decide whether he thinks the team is good enough to stay long term.
[/quote]

That's why i don't believe he will stay with the minny. If you look at the western conference, who's going to drop out of the playoffs next year so that they can get in and keep love happy?

Spurs
OKC
Clippers
Grizzlies
Houston
Warriors
Trailblazers
Dallas

Then you have:
Phoenix
Pelicans
Twolves
Nuggets
Lakers
Kings

I can see phoenix replacing one of the bottom 4 who are currently in the playoffs. Everyone else is a longshot

[scratchswinger]

Are these the top 7 players?

Wiggings
Parker
Embiid
Exum
Vonleh
Smart
Randle

If the Lakers could land Randle I would keep the pick but Smart or Vonelh I would probably look to package the pick for an established player or possible future first round picks and look to building some assets.

Regarding Love... I think that any team outside of LA, CHI or NY would be foolish to trade for him just to watch him walk after this season. If your GS or PHX I would think there is at least a 55% chance that he does not resign after this season. If your NY, CHI or LA I would still think that there is at least a 30% chance he would walk.

[mnplayer]

[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1400681065' post='9338871']
[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1400679768' post='9338701']
It's the same situation at the end of the year no matter where he plays this year. He'll assess based on this season and decide whether he thinks the team is good enough to stay long term.
[/quote]

That's why i don't believe he will stay with the minny. If you look at the western conference, who's going to drop out of the playoffs next year so that they can get in and keep love happy?

Spurs
OKC
Clippers
Grizzlies
Houston
Warriors
Trailblazers
Dallas

Then you have:
Phoenix
Pelicans
Twolves
Nuggets
Lakers
Kings

I can see phoenix replacing one of the bottom 4 who are currently in the playoffs. Everyone else is a longshot
[/quote]

I agree, I don't think theres any chance he's staying. I'm just saying I don't think his mindset changes if/when he gets traded, he'll still leave if he thinks he has a better chance of winning elsewhere. I like the fit in GS, but like scratch is saying you have to consider that there's a pretty decent chance he'll leave. Especially if GS trades Thompson and Lee to get him, I don't see that being a great move to get him to stay.

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1400685777' post='9339519']
Are these the top 7 players?

Wiggings
Parker
Embiid
Exum
Vonleh
Smart
Randle

If the Lakers could land Randle I would keep the pick but Smart or Vonelh I would probably look to package the pick for an established player or possible future first round picks and look to building some assets.

Regarding Love... I think that any team outside of LA, CHI or NY would be foolish to trade for him just to watch him walk after this season. If your GS or PHX I would think there is at least a 55% chance that he does not resign after this season. If your NY, CHI or LA I would still think that there is at least a 30% chance he would walk.
[/quote]

With the rumors that Exum's (and Kobe's) Agent is apparently not going to let him work out for anybody but the Lakers, it will be interesting to see how much of an effect that has on other teams.

[scratchswinger]

The thing with Love is, he is probably not ever going to be the best player on a championship team unless the stars align perfectly like they did for Dirk a few years ago. Even then it would be a one and done type of thing... If he is interested in winning Championships (like more than one) he probably needs to team up with someone better than him. Is Curry that guy? Rose when healthy possibly.... But I still think he is a piece and not the piece like LeBron or Durant. Love would be a great second option on a dynasty type team.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1400641162' post='9336717']
I could eat my words if something crazy happens in the final 2 minutes but its games like this (and last year's East Finals) where its really hard to understand people calling Paul George an elite player. I think he started the night 1-12 from the floor.... now 4-16 with key turnovers and poor shot selection.

Cavs with the #1 pick again.... LUCKY!
[/quote]

George hasn't had a great shooting night, and there have been several of them in the past few months. But would you consider James Harden an elite player? Most people would say unquestionably yes

However James Harden couldn't cover [i]you [/i]defensively. A big part of Portland's game plan was to abuse him incessantly. The Rockets have lost in the first round back to back years.

Paul George is the best player on a team that took the champs to 7 games, and is currently 1-1 with them in the conference finals for the second year in a row. Watch him cover James, watch him cover anyone. He is tough in the post, has arms like an octopus, and is all over the passing lanes.

Give me Paul George scoring 18 a game with his defense (which is arguably the best wing defense in the entire NBA) and he is definitely, [i]definitely [/i]an elite player. The NBA game is a 2 way affair and George is league best at one of them

[MtlJeff]

ScratchSwinger, to answer your question about draft picks.

I still believe, fully, that Andrew Wiggins is the surest thing in the draft. Everyone says Parker is the "most NBA ready", but really what they are saying is "he is the most offensively NBA ready". Why is Andrew Wiggins, who was one of the premier wing defenders in the college game last year (and who took the other teams #1 option every game) , not "NBA ready". Doesn't defense count? Wiggins to me, at worst, is somewhere between Andre Iguodala and Paul George in terms of skillset. An elite defender who can probably be your #2 option offensively. Any team in the league wants a guy like that. My issue with Parker is he might be a 22ppg guy who doesn't play defense. And those are the guys you pay 10M+ to except you don't win with

I could see Cleveland taking Embiid. They have Irving (terrible defender), Anthony Bennett or Tristan Thompson (undersized 4). They need a defensive anchor in the worst way. Embiid would be a smart pick....as would Wiggins

I think the top 5 players are:

1) Wiggins
2) Embiid
3) Parker (i've been hard on Parker, but he does have a great attitude)
4) Smart (He will be a player for the same reasons Wiggins will be, Smart is an excellent defensive player)
5) Exum (he has a very diverse skillset, lots of questions about competition. But he has so much versatility)

[TheGameChanger]

Dante Exum reminds me of a taller Rose/Westbrook. I think he turns out the best player from this draft. I hope he ends up in Orlando. Cleveland will take Embiid. They will chase Lebron hard in free agency. Embiid has a huge upside. However he is the most likely to be a Bust out of the top 3. My Quick Mock is

Cleveland - Embiid
Bucks - Wiggins
76ers - Parker
Orlando - Exum
Utah - Randle
Boston - Vonleh
LA - Smart
Kings - McDermott
Bobcats - Gordon
Philly - Stauskas

Kings already have the pick up on the Market apparently.

[scratchswinger]

Smart could make a good complimentary piece to a dynasty.

[mnplayer]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1400722257' post='9343671']
Smart could make a good complimentary piece to a dynasty.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what to think of him. Could be a really nice piece like you said or end up being a bench warmer. I really hope Randle or Vonleh are available though.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1400715010' post='9342721']
ScratchSwinger, to answer your question about draft picks.

I still believe, fully, that Andrew Wiggins is the surest thing in the draft. Everyone says Parker is the "most NBA ready", but really what they are saying is "he is the most offensively NBA ready". Why is Andrew Wiggins, who was one of the premier wing defenders in the college game last year (and who took the other teams #1 option every game) , not "NBA ready". Doesn't defense count? Wiggins to me, at worst, is somewhere between Andre Iguodala and Paul George in terms of skillset. An elite defender who can probably be your #2 option offensively. Any team in the league wants a guy like that. My issue with Parker is he might be a 22ppg guy who doesn't play defense. And those are the guys you pay 10M+ to except you don't win with

I could see Cleveland taking Embiid. They have Irving (terrible defender), Anthony Bennett or Tristan Thompson (undersized 4). They need a defensive anchor in the worst way. Embiid would be a smart pick....as would Wiggins

I think the top 5 players are:

1) Wiggins
2) Embiid
3) Parker (i've been hard on Parker, but he does have a great attitude)
4) Smart (He will be a player for the same reasons Wiggins will be, Smart is an excellent defensive player)
5) Exum (he has a very diverse skillset, lots of questions about competition. But he has so much versatility)
[/quote]

Yeah Wiggens in the best player. If I'm Cleveland and I have #1 pick I want the best player, not the best player for my current roster. So I would look to trade Waiters, because you really don't need him and Wiggens. With that said at best I think Wiggens is T-Mac level, not sure he's the best player on a championship team. It will be interesting to see if there any players at that caliber in this draft. And no LBJ is never going back to Cleveland, Gilbert burnt that bridge.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1400724499' post='9344033']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1400722257' post='9343671']
Smart could make a good complimentary piece to a dynasty.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what to think of him. Could be a really nice piece like you said or end up being a bench warmer. I really hope Randle or Vonleh are available though.
[/quote]

Randle would be my first option but I don't see it. I think they should trade Smart if they get a good option. If they could get a guy like Z-Bo for Smart or another vet of that caliber I take it.

The more I think about the next coach, the more I like Fish. I think it would be fun to see him and Kobe reunited for the next few years and see how Fish does with Kobe having a say in it (because he would with Fish as the coach). Kobe basically coached the team at the end of last season and led the team into the Playoffs before getting hurt.

[tocino]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1400725689' post='9344183']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1400715010' post='9342721']
ScratchSwinger, to answer your question about draft picks.

I still believe, fully, that Andrew Wiggins is the surest thing in the draft. Everyone says Parker is the "most NBA ready", but really what they are saying is "he is the most offensively NBA ready". Why is Andrew Wiggins, who was one of the premier wing defenders in the college game last year (and who took the other teams #1 option every game) , not "NBA ready". Doesn't defense count? Wiggins to me, at worst, is somewhere between Andre Iguodala and Paul George in terms of skillset. An elite defender who can probably be your #2 option offensively. Any team in the league wants a guy like that. My issue with Parker is he might be a 22ppg guy who doesn't play defense. And those are the guys you pay 10M+ to except you don't win with

I could see Cleveland taking Embiid. They have Irving (terrible defender), Anthony Bennett or Tristan Thompson (undersized 4). They need a defensive anchor in the worst way. Embiid would be a smart pick....as would Wiggins

I think the top 5 players are:

1) Wiggins
2) Embiid
3) Parker (i've been hard on Parker, but he does have a great attitude)
4) Smart (He will be a player for the same reasons Wiggins will be, Smart is an excellent defensive player)
5) Exum (he has a very diverse skillset, lots of questions about competition. But he has so much versatility)
[/quote]

Yeah Wiggens in the best player. If I'm Cleveland and I have #1 pick I want the best player, not the best player for my current roster. So I would look to trade Waiters, because you really don't need him and Wiggens. With that said at best I think Wiggens is T-Mac level, not sure he's the best player on a championship team. It will be interesting to see if there any players at that caliber in this draft. And no LBJ is never going back to Cleveland, Gilbert burnt that bridge.
[/quote]

I think Embliid has the most upside out of anyone in this draft but yes, he's also the one guy out of the top 3 in this class that could crash and burn hard. Wiggens reminds me too much of a slightly more athletic Harrison Barnes (i.e. good kid who works hard but might not have the killer instinct to be truly great). For as much talent there is up and down this draft there is no lebron/durrant here.

[Dizz]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1400714530' post='9342655']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1400641162' post='9336717']
I could eat my words if something crazy happens in the final 2 minutes but its games like this (and last year's East Finals) where its really hard to understand people calling Paul George an elite player. I think he started the night 1-12 from the floor.... now 4-16 with key turnovers and poor shot selection.

Cavs with the #1 pick again.... LUCKY!
[/quote]

George hasn't had a great shooting night, and there have been several of them in the past few months. But would you consider James Harden an elite player? Most people would say unquestionably yes

However James Harden couldn't cover [i]you [/i]defensively. A big part of Portland's game plan was to abuse him incessantly. The Rockets have lost in the first round back to back years.

Paul George is the best player on a team that took the champs to 7 games, and is currently 1-1 with them in the conference finals for the second year in a row. Watch him cover James, watch him cover anyone. He is tough in the post, has arms like an octopus, and is all over the passing lanes.

Give me Paul George scoring 18 a game with his defense (which is arguably the best wing defense in the entire NBA) and he is definitely, [i]definitely [/i]an elite player. The NBA game is a 2 way affair and George is league best at one of them
[/quote]

Nice post Jeff.... and I'm not saying I don't disagree. Very well thought out response and can definitely tell you enjoy the game and are passionate about it. BUT, he is still their best offensive player as well and quite simply cannot go 4-16 (I think he started 1-12 or 13) from the field in the Conference Finals. Last year he did the same thing several times in the East Finals... Game 7 he shot 2-9 from the floor, 2-4 from the charity stripe and finished with 7 points.

You're right, he is one of the best defenders in the league but his team also relies on him to score and even more so under the biggest pressure situations..... right?

[MtlJeff]

I know what you're saying J.W, he is kind of in an unfortunate role where he happens to not be an exceptional scorer, and plays on a team where scoring is their biggest problem apart from him. So it puts even more pressure on him.

George can knock down 3's, and can finish around the rim. But he is not a particularly great ballhandler or post up player, he doesn't create space for himself well yet despite his great athletisicm. (this is why Wiggins gets compared to him so much). It's like he doesn't quite know how to play offensive basketball yet, like say a Tony Parker who can get to the hoop without ever seeming to be moving too fast.

This gets magnified even further on the Pacers. But imagine if instead of Indiana, he was in say, Memphis. A similar team but with a good passing big man like Marc Gasol, and a PG who can create a little bit in Conley. He'd get baskets a bit easier and probably even put up better stats then he does in Indiana.

[scratchswinger]

Just to point out one thing that has not been mentioned is that he has LeBron James guarding him for many of these games.

[scratchswinger]

I know that teammates argue and things get heated but it seems to happen a lot for Westbrook and Durant.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/as-thunder-go-cold--kevin-durant--russell-westbrook-get-heated-with-each-other-065800051.html

Normally when you have one of the best players in the league the other players on the team respect that and avoid confrontations. Westbrook seems either not give a sh*** or he thinks differently of Durant than everybody else does.... I have said this for the last few years but it's going to end bad in OKC, getting swept now and possible expediting a breakup might be the best thing for Durant and Westbrooks careers.

[MtlJeff]

People used to say Lebron would never win a championship, now he's chasing a 3 peat before his 30th birthday. Our "analyze everything THIS INSTANT!" culture seems convinced that having 2 top 10 players on the same team who seem to genuinely like each other (and who are both younger then Lebron was when he won his first title), is some kind of terrible thing. I wasn't sure about things at time this year, and then watched Durant's MVP speech....

They're in the conference finals for god's sake. Not only that if they wanted to they could flip 2 first round picks and one of their young guys for any number of options.

You can't say a team is in a bad spot when any team in the NBA that doesn't feature Lebron would trade places with them [i]this instant[/i]

[scratchswinger]

How many titles do you think they will win in OKC?

[MtlJeff]

Maybe they win 3-4, maybe they win none. Who knows? No one can realistically predict anything. Bill Simmons wrote last week that maybe they'll be like the old Sacramento Kings who fell apart due to injuries. Of course that could happen. It could also happen that they win multiple titles (they could trade the 21st pick and Lamb/Jones for a number of players, Al Horford, Arron Afflalo etc...or stand pat and maybe see Lamb or Jones develop, who knows)

Point is they've won the equivalent of 55 games or more in 4 consecutive seasons, been to 2 conference finals and 1 NBA finals, and their best players are 25, 25 and 24 years old, and signed for at least 2 more years each

Everyone loves to say they won't win anything. Why? Name me a team in a better position. If someone's position is the Thunder will never win anything, what's the rational behind saying any other team in the NBA [i]will [/i]win something? Which team is in a better position then a team who has a 25 year old MVP, a 25 year old averaging 26-8-8 in the playoffs, and a 24 year old who is one of the best interior defenders in the NBA?

The Clippers? The Wizards? the Pacers? The Blazers? The Rockets? Raptors? Warriors?

Guessing how many titles a team will win is dumb. We can only say what they have compared to what other teams have

[Dizz]

Not sure what you guys think but sometimes I wonder if the Thunder would be a better overall team without Westbrook....

Let's say they dealt Westbrook for a solid PG and got another high level player out of it. Would anyone be willing to do that?

I know this is not possible but if you're a fan of the Thunder would you rather have someone like Westbrook or someone like CP3?

I just feel like Russell shoots too much... especially for having Durant on the team... Jeff.... thoughts?

[TheGameChanger]

Look at Lebron his luck changed when Derrick Rose tore his ACL. I Think Chicago Wouldve knocked the Heat out in the ECF that year. However to Lebron's credit he was down 3-2 to Boston and Put on the best Perfomance I've seen from a player in years in Game 6.

Durant has been unlucky 3 years in a row

Harden didn't turn in the Finals against the Heat
Westbrook got hurt early in the playoffs last year.
This year Ibaka gets hurt and is done for the playoffs.

[scratchswinger]

So if they don't win this year and they don't win next year, Durant will walk. No way he signs on again to continue and play with Westbrook. Or there will be a huge falling out and someone will demand to be traded. If memory serves me correctly Westbrook has two years and Durant has one year left. Let's just face it, the two are not the best fit for one another, Durant needs someone that does not think he is better than Durant.

The Utah Jazz with Malone and Stockton did all kinds of wonderful things in the playoffs and regular season, numerous teams would have loved to have their roster. They won exactly zero titles.

[TheGameChanger]

For some reason I see Durant in Brooklyn.

[baseballfrk8998]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1400815236' post='9351769']
So if they don't win this year and they don't win next year, Durant will walk. No way he signs on again to continue and play with Westbrook. Or there will be a huge falling out and someone will demand to be traded. If memory serves me correctly Westbrook has two years and Durant has one year left. Let's just face it, the two are not the best fit for one another, Durant needs someone that does not think he is better than Durant.

The Utah Jazz with Malone and Stockton did all kinds of wonderful things in the playoffs and regular season, numerous teams would have loved to have their roster. They won exactly zero titles.
[/quote]

Durant has 2 years left, Westbrook has 3 and Ibaka has 3.

Like Jeff said, you can't predict titles. Who had Dallas winning in 2011? They haven't won a title yet, but like Jeff said, they've caught some really unfortunate breaks in the playoffs. Harden layed an egg in the finals in 2011, Westbrook went down last year and this year they lose their best defensive player.

This series isn't over anyways. This isn't the 1st time they've been down 0-2 to SA. I'm not saying they'll win the series, but it's definitely not over.