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USKG yardages

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  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If USKG goes LONGER which is what the rumor is the good players and the longer player's won't really suffer much, it's the shorter ones or the kids who shoot 48+ that will. Locals are short, honestly for longer hitters worlds are short. At girls 7U my daughter's approach hit nothing longer than a GW last year and that was in the very wet conditions. Worlds should be longer, regionals could be longer. Locals I don't agree there. Locals being short isn't about saying I shot a 32 today. It's growing the game getting more kids involved make it fun so they have some success in it. For longer kids and bigger the length will have little to no impact by making it longer it just plays right into the hands of the longer hitters but for the kids who at 9 and under who hit it 80 it becomes brutal for those kids.

  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nothing gets a GolfWRX thread in the junior forum going like a discussion of driving distance. Nothing. It's not even close.

    -- Two things don't last long. Dogs chasing cars and golf pro's putting for pars. --

  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 501 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I personally think for kids on the cusp (10-12yo) that playing 18 holes, even with a shorter setup (e.g. US Kids Local Tour), is better for development than "playing up" but only playing 9 holes on a longer setup (many Junior PGA Tours).

  • Golfingdawg19Golfingdawg19 Members Posts: 427 ✭✭✭✭

    @leezer99 said:

    @Golfingdawg19 said:
    The issue is that some want you to build the yardages around the elite golfers which is a very small percentage. The majority of the kids playing at each level are perfect at the current yardages that US Kids have and some may even need them to be shortened. If the goal is to grow the game, then making the courses so long that only elite players excel will be counterproductive. If your child is that elite, then move them up to a higher level and let them compete against older kids.

    Which USKG doesn't allow so they all leave. At the local tour level you're only seeing middle of the road players.

    I don't disagree that at some point the better players leave the local level of US Kids. They do exactly as I said earlier and find a tour that better suits their child. I would argue that even the regional and worlds distances are just fine as they are. My daughter is 11 and played in the Jekyll regional a few weeks ago. The distance for the 11 year old girls group was 4800 yds. There were a total of 17 girls in her age group and only 4 of them broke 10 over par for 2 days. None of the girls was under par despite some on here thinking those yardages are too short. The middle of the pack was 16 over for two days which is averaging an 80 each day. I hardly see those scores as "lighting it up." I feel like US Kids is great for the majority of kids and the distances are on par. If they lower them a little, then so what. The kids will shoot lower scores and learn how to deal with going low. The elite kids can go another direction if they feel they aren't being challenged.

  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 501 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @leezer99 said:

    @JuniorGolfParent said:

    @darter79 said:

    @JuniorGolfParent said:
    Wow the yardages people are talking about seem much longer than what I am seeing watching kids (even the good ones) competing in our area.

    If the 5th place 7-9 year old boy in Drive Chip & Putt finals (who is probably 9?) is hitting it about 160 yards, and the 6th place 10-11 year old finalist is hitting it 190 yards, how do the yardages above make any sense?

    (Scratching head)

    using DCP as a judge for kids and driving distance on ONE drive isn't a good indicator of distance. Th girls who won 7-9 hit hers almost 190 so are you going to say that's an average for girls of that age range? Most hit theirs 130-150 is that the average? Using DCP for driving distances for kids would be a bad stat in my opinion. I know some of those from worlds and other events and and I would say the numbers were inflated by conditions and wind a bit.

    Maybe you misunderstood my post - I think I am agreeing with you.

    People are implying 9 year old boys drive it 170-180 yards, and others are posting charts showing the top 3 finishers in the "Drive" portion of the DCP finals. These numbers seem inflated and/or taking a very small sample of high-performing elite junior golfers who are some of the best in the country. I agree they should NOT be used in talking about yardages for competitions average junior tournament golfers.

    If you're ok with staying in the fat part of the bell curve then so be it.

    You mean like "Competing against the best"?

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1761332/competing-against-the-best#latest

  • bwbwbwbw Members Posts: 61 ✭✭

    Let me give my opinion as a follow-up to what I said:

    At locals, a girl who just moves up to age 12 and playing 5,000 yards and 18 holes is a big jump from being 11 and playing 1,900 yards over 9 holes. I'm not talking about the elite or top tier talent, but I am talking about the point of US Kids Local Tours: To grow interest in the game.

    At Worlds, I have no issue with the length. When my daughter was 11 and played 5,000 yards, I had no problem with this. It is the world level stage after all. But, at the local level, when girls are maturing at different rates (my daughter is 3-6" shorter than most she plays against, and probably weighs 30 pounds less), that jump between being 11 and 12 is huge.

    My argument is not for shorter Worlds. My opinion is the local tours should be a bit shorter for girls 12. If anything it will teach the longer players to focus on short game, which can only help them in the long run, while giving smaller, less physically developed players, a change to see more GIR's and par attempts without having to take 3 wood or hybrid for every second shot.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 9, 2019 4:33pm #38

    Here is the problem I see with US Kids. First your not able to age up. Second there really is not a lot regionals that a competitive golfer can go to. I know there are lot but once you factor in the price and travel it is a lot money to spend on 9 hole kiddie tournaments.

    So what ends up happening is the better kids play the locals and they blow away the new kids. Lots of kids can't break 50 for 9 holes starting out even on a short course. Those kids never return.

    Most parents figure out that they need to move on from US Kids but it takes them until the kid is 11 or 12. Long term there is issues with US Kids tournaments and they need to figure out are they an elite tour or one for just locals. You can not be both and I think that is where the problem is.

    If you lucky you have a local PGA sectional and they offer better alternatives so you don't have to travel to worlds every year just to see competition.

    Post edited by tiger1873 on
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @darter79 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Heard yesterday that USKG is going with long leaf system for yardages starting this summer. That brings boys 10 down to 2100 yards. Not sure why there would only be a 200 yard jump from boys 9 to boys 10. I guess they thought the jump to 2500 was too much for the shorter hitters? Not sure if all age groups will have adjusted yardages but I thought original USKG yardages were reasonable.

    Where did you hear that? I have a hard time thinking they could. That system is based on 1500 yards. The younger groups would suffer greatly unless they regrouped how they are doing the yardages. What is your source for this information?

    EDIT: Just talked to our local USKG director he said changes are coming but its not confirmed if it goes longer or shorter but he thinks they will go longer.

    Check with USKG. Local tour director told me they were moving to Long Leaf tee system. Some local tours are already rolling out as pilots in the spring. The intention is to move to it permanently beginning with the summer tours. My guess on this hearsay is that yardages at certain age groups (e.g., boys 10) will be shorter at local tours.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bwbw said:
    ...If anything it will teach the longer players to focus on short game, which can only help them in the long run...

    This is wrong. In the long run you want the best long iron game.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 9, 2019 5:16pm #42

    @leezer99 said:
    Here are the drives of the top 3 kids in each age group with an average at the bottom. I didn't watch but someone said there may have been conditions less favorable to certain groups that went earlier?

    Tiger - for you to dispute this data is absurd. For the most part, girls are going to be shorter than theses distances at similar age groups. No way should a 12-year old girl be playing 5600 yards unless you are at high elevation or playing fast firm fairways. And if your daughter is skilled enough to keep up with similar-aged boys, let her dominate her tour; not complain that yardages are too short. THE LPGA PLAYS 6200-6600 YARDS!

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    I think the long leaf system makes a lot of sense re appropriate distance. If you look at that link I shared, they set up the holes based on driver carry and mix in long iron approach shots with some short iron approach shots. They also make a par 5 reachable and others a three-shot hole. Where the disagreement comes is whether the right tee is being used for a particular age group. Based on my experience, I think boys 8 should stay as-is, boys 9 should be 2100, boys 10 2500 and boys 11 5200 (less gap bc for a lot of kids it's the first time consistently playing 18-hole events). For any 9-hole stretch, there should be a mid to short iron par 3, a long iron par 3, reachable par 5, unreachable par 5 and a mix of par 4s (mid iron in to long iron in). At a certain point, you have to distinguish the better ball strikers, even at the local level.

  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    I think the long leaf system makes a lot of sense re appropriate distance. If you look at that link I shared, they set up the holes based on driver carry and mix in long iron approach shots with some short iron approach shots. They also make a par 5 reachable and others a three-shot hole. Where the disagreement comes is whether the right tee is being used for a particular age group. Based on my experience, I think boys 8 should stay as-is, boys 9 should be 2100, boys 10 2500 and boys 11 5200 (less gap bc for a lot of kids it's the first time consistently playing 18-hole events). For any 9-hole stretch, there should be a mid to short iron par 3, a long iron par 3, reachable par 5, unreachable par 5 and a mix of par 4s (mid iron in to long iron in). At a certain point, you have to distinguish the better ball strikers, even at the local level.

    Problem with longleaf system its based upon driving distance too many variables there to set up a tournament around. You going to take averages from all USKG golfers to figure out this data. They use trackman at regionals but thats only for those with status what about the ones learning? The shortest distance is 1500 yards is that where boys6/girls7U will fall. That would be a big jump from the current 1100.

  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 341 ✭✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:

    Most parents figure out that they need to move on from US Kids but it takes them until the kid is 11 or 12. Long term there is issues with US Kids tournaments and they need to figure out are they an elite tour or one for just locals. You can not be both and I think that is where the problem is.

    If you lucky you have a local PGA sectional and they offer better alternatives so you don't have to travel to worlds every year just to see competition.

    As the preeminent under 12 junior golf tournament in the country, it seems to me they know exactly what they are doing. Using their name and recognition to get as many kids involved in golf as they can. My local tour is not contracting, in fact, there is discussion of splitting into a N and S division. Last year, before the first tournament even started, we could only register for maybe 2 events. Every other event was a waitlist. Seems pretty successful for a company that doesn’t know what it wants to be.

    USKG seems to be doing it right. They introduce most kids in the 10U group to tournament golf. Based on how well they progress, those kids stick around as long as they want. They use their national recognition and points system to allow the cream of each local tour to rise to regionals and worlds. The running commentary on this forum, easily the most popular junior golf forum, is that these regional and world events are typically worth it at a certain age range.

    If you feel you child has progressed beyond the level of USKG, then pick another tour. Otherwise, I don’t expect USKG to craft a tour that suits my daughter’s needs from 8-18 years old.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @darter79 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    I think the long leaf system makes a lot of sense re appropriate distance. If you look at that link I shared, they set up the holes based on driver carry and mix in long iron approach shots with some short iron approach shots. They also make a par 5 reachable and others a three-shot hole. Where the disagreement comes is whether the right tee is being used for a particular age group. Based on my experience, I think boys 8 should stay as-is, boys 9 should be 2100, boys 10 2500 and boys 11 5200 (less gap bc for a lot of kids it's the first time consistently playing 18-hole events). For any 9-hole stretch, there should be a mid to short iron par 3, a long iron par 3, reachable par 5, unreachable par 5 and a mix of par 4s (mid iron in to long iron in). At a certain point, you have to distinguish the better ball strikers, even at the local level.

    Problem with longleaf system its based upon driving distance too many variables there to set up a tournament around. You going to take averages from all USKG golfers to figure out this data. They use trackman at regionals but thats only for those with status what about the ones learning? The shortest distance is 1500 yards is that where boys6/girls7U will fall. That would be a big jump from the current 1100.

    @darter79 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    I think the long leaf system makes a lot of sense re appropriate distance. If you look at that link I shared, they set up the holes based on driver carry and mix in long iron approach shots with some short iron approach shots. They also make a par 5 reachable and others a three-shot hole. Where the disagreement comes is whether the right tee is being used for a particular age group. Based on my experience, I think boys 8 should stay as-is, boys 9 should be 2100, boys 10 2500 and boys 11 5200 (less gap bc for a lot of kids it's the first time consistently playing 18-hole events). For any 9-hole stretch, there should be a mid to short iron par 3, a long iron par 3, reachable par 5, unreachable par 5 and a mix of par 4s (mid iron in to long iron in). At a certain point, you have to distinguish the better ball strikers, even at the local level.

    Problem with longleaf system its based upon driving distance too many variables there to set up a tournament around. You going to take averages from all USKG golfers to figure out this data. They use trackman at regionals but thats only for those with status what about the ones learning? The shortest distance is 1500 yards is that where boys6/girls7U will fall. That would be a big jump from the current 1100.

    I don’t think they would mess with the 8u setups.

  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 150 ✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:
    Here is the problem I see with US Kids. First your not able to age up. Second there really is not a lot regionals that a competitive golfer can go to. I know there are lot but once you factor in the price and travel it is a lot money to spend on 9 hole kiddie tournaments.

    So what ends up happening is the better kids play the locals and they blow away the new kids. Lots of kids can't break 50 for 9 holes starting out even on a short course. Those kids never return.

    Most parents figure out that they need to move on from US Kids but it takes them until the kid is 11 or 12. Long term there is issues with US Kids tournaments and they need to figure out are they an elite tour or one for just locals. You can not be both and I think that is where the problem is.

    If you lucky you have a local PGA sectional and they offer better alternatives so you don't have to travel to worlds every year just to see competition.

    There is some truth in this. It would nice if USKG offered more of their advanced level events--State's and Regional's as they're now called. For example, we live in Mississippi and the closest regional to us is 8 hours away. There are some locations where the same could be said for both State's and Regional's. But in any event, unless money is no object to you, you are not able to build a full schedule off of USKG events.

    However, all in all, they do a very good job at the local level AND with the higher level events they put on. They do NOT have to figure out whether they are elite or not. They don't have to be one or the other. They don't need to let kids "age up" if they don't want to. If a kid is truly "too good" for an age division then there are always other options out there that will take their money.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BertGA said:

    @tiger1873 said:

    Most parents figure out that they need to move on from US Kids but it takes them until the kid is 11 or 12. Long term there is issues with US Kids tournaments and they need to figure out are they an elite tour or one for just locals. You can not be both and I think that is where the problem is.

    If you lucky you have a local PGA sectional and they offer better alternatives so you don't have to travel to worlds every year just to see competition.

    As the preeminent under 12 junior golf tournament in the country, it seems to me they know exactly what they are doing. Using their name and recognition to get as many kids involved in golf as they can. My local tour is not contracting, in fact, there is discussion of splitting into a N and S division. Last year, before the first tournament even started, we could only register for maybe 2 events. Every other event was a waitlist. Seems pretty successful for a company that doesn’t know what it wants to be.

    USKG seems to be doing it right. They introduce most kids in the 10U group to tournament golf. Based on how well they progress, those kids stick around as long as they want. They use their national recognition and points system to allow the cream of each local tour to rise to regionals and worlds. The running commentary on this forum, easily the most popular junior golf forum, is that these regional and world events are typically worth it at a certain age range.

    If you feel you child has progressed beyond the level of USKG, then pick another tour. Otherwise, I don’t expect USKG to craft a tour that suits my daughter’s needs from 8-18 years old.

    Local tour quality varies a lot around the Country. In places such as South Florida or in Dallas or in Southern California you end up playing with top 10 worlds finishers in the locals at every local tournament. I think it a huge issue for new kids in those locals.

    In many cases the top kids spend a small fortune to compete. If you want to play you end up buying the kid a $200 plus driver just so they can stay in the game and seek out coaches at $150-$200 an hour. I know not everyone sees this sort of thing. A lot this happens in my opinion because the courses are too easy for the younger kids and parents think low score in kiddie tournaments is the same thing as winning the Masters.

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    I think the long leaf system makes a lot of sense re appropriate distance. If you look at that link I shared, they set up the holes based on driver carry and mix in long iron approach shots with some short iron approach shots. They also make a par 5 reachable and others a three-shot hole. Where the disagreement comes is whether the right tee is being used for a particular age group. Based on my experience, I think boys 8 should stay as-is, boys 9 should be 2100, boys 10 2500 and boys 11 5200 (less gap bc for a lot of kids it's the first time consistently playing 18-hole events). For any 9-hole stretch, there should be a mid to short iron par 3, a long iron par 3, reachable par 5, unreachable par 5 and a mix of par 4s (mid iron in to long iron in). At a certain point, you have to distinguish the better ball strikers, even at the local level.

    I think the system is pretty interesting and might actually work. It definitely matches up with my son who is average distance off the tee.
    From my experience your distance seem good for the local level and a slight progression for states, regional and worlds.
    I will say we struggled from a 9 yr to a 10 yr..the move 11 was nothing (implying 11 should be longer). We just moved from 11 to 12 and that jumps from 5000 to 5500/5600 (locals) - i was really concerned about it especially given spring weather in the NE but fortunately a growth spurt has made it seamless.

  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 150 ✭✭✭

    @darter79 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    I think the long leaf system makes a lot of sense re appropriate distance. If you look at that link I shared, they set up the holes based on driver carry and mix in long iron approach shots with some short iron approach shots. They also make a par 5 reachable and others a three-shot hole. Where the disagreement comes is whether the right tee is being used for a particular age group. Based on my experience, I think boys 8 should stay as-is, boys 9 should be 2100, boys 10 2500 and boys 11 5200 (less gap bc for a lot of kids it's the first time consistently playing 18-hole events). For any 9-hole stretch, there should be a mid to short iron par 3, a long iron par 3, reachable par 5, unreachable par 5 and a mix of par 4s (mid iron in to long iron in). At a certain point, you have to distinguish the better ball strikers, even at the local level.

    Problem with longleaf system its based upon driving distance too many variables there to set up a tournament around. You going to take averages from all USKG golfers to figure out this data. They use trackman at regionals but thats only for those with status what about the ones learning? The shortest distance is 1500 yards is that where boys6/girls7U will fall. That would be a big jump from the current 1100.

    You could take the information gained at Regional's and World's and use it to set up the various levels. Something like this:
    Swing Speed of 20th percentile (player swings faster than 80% of participants) - yardage for World's
    Swing Speed of 50th percentile - yardage for State and Regional
    Swing Speed of 80th percentile (player swings slower than 80% of participants) - yardage for Local tour

    At the end of the day the biggest problem US Kids has that's keeping everything from being more perfect is that--like almost every other organization--they lump multiple ages into the same yardages. They let you compete at a single age division which is nice, but there is just a HUGE difference between a kid that just turned 8 versus a kid about to turn 10--yet they're playing the same yardage locally. Likewise for a kid that just turned 10 versus another that's about to be 12 and already has started puberty.

    It's already hard enough on these local tour directors having to plan and set out 6 sets of tees, but in reality they need to add two or three more sets of tees and let every age/division have their own yardage. Something like the following. Then you could use the other numbers for State/Regional and then World:
    Boys 6 & Under/ - 1,100
    Boys 7/ - 1,400
    Boys 8/ - 1,700
    Boys 9 - 2,000
    Boys 10 - 2,300
    Boys 11 - 2,600
    Boys 12 - 2,900
    Boys 13-14 - 3,200
    Girls 8 & Under - 1,400
    Girls 9-10 - 1,850 (combination of Boys 8 and Boys 9 tees)
    Girls 11-12 - 2,300
    Girls 13-14 - 2,600

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 9, 2019 7:32pm #52

    @kcap said:

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    I think this is the most accurate thing about the correct distance. I have seen lot setups that are played to yardage and not to how the course is designed. It's the biggest problem I see when they can't stick to at least the standard women tees in tournaments (even women tees sometimes are in bad places on some courses).

    I think that is where most of the issue is some courses are just not designed to be played from certain yards. Some modified courses for tournaments punish short hitters while other setups are really bad if you hit it longer. It goes both ways.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

    Re World's. I found mid pines greens to be the craziest. Pinehurst 1 greens weren't easy either, but that could be due to our unfamiliarity with bermuda.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 10, 2019 3:37pm #55

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

    One thing not mentioned is courses in general play longer in south florida then other regions. As an example In florida 5000 yards may actually make sense for 11-12 especially in the rainy season but head to the center of the country and 5000 yards is way too short your looking at probaly 5500-5700 yards to challenge players the same players. I seen and played winter golf where everyone picks up 50-75 yards because of roll. Distance is a regional thing.

    I just wish US kids locals were played at better courses in general. It always seems like most of the courses are dump with a few goods on thrown in there every once in a while.

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Apr 10, 2019 4:04pm #56

    @tiger1873 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

    One thing not mentioned is courses in general play longer in south florida then other regions. As an example In florida 5000 yards may actually make sense for 11-12 especially in the rainy season but head to the center of the country and 5000 yards is way too short your looking at probaly 5500-5700 yards to challenge players. I seen and played winter golf where everyone picks up 50-75 yards because of roll. Distance is a regional thing.

    This is very true. Fly it 230 and will just plug in the middle of the fairway. The fun ones are when they plug so far you can't see it and have to actually dig.

    Post edited by heavy_hitter on
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

    One thing not mentioned is courses in general play longer in south florida then other regions. As an example In florida 5000 yards may actually make sense for 11-12 especially in the rainy season but head to the center of the country and 5000 yards is way too short your looking at probaly 5500-5700 yards to challenge players. I seen and played winter golf where everyone picks up 50-75 yards because of roll. Distance is a regional thing.

    Today's GolfWRX junior parents, "Hey honey, want to move to Oklahoma?"

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 150 ✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

    One thing not mentioned is courses in general play longer in south florida then other regions. As an example In florida 5000 yards may actually make sense for 11-12 especially in the rainy season but head to the center of the country and 5000 yards is way too short your looking at probaly 5500-5700 yards to challenge players the same players. I seen and played winter golf where everyone picks up 50-75 yards because of roll. Distance is a regional thing.

    I just wish US kids locals were played at better courses in general. It always seems like most of the courses are dump with a few goods on thrown in there every once in a while.

    That last part is on the local tour directors. Our local tour plays 6 of its 8 events on the best 6 courses in the area. This includes a current PGA Tour course and a former pga tour course

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    I love when our local director for boys 10 have par 3s over 170. Feels like he does this to get to the 2500 number. Same with having par 5s over 450. Why not just lengthen the par 4s? It actually makes distance off the tee less of a factor.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @tiger1873 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @kcap said:
    What is everyone criteria of appropriate distance? I have seen this statement used but what does that mean?
    Does it imply that majority of the field shoot from par to the mid/high 70s?
    I think Pinewood has hit the nail.. in every category.. worlds or regional you have only a few kids breaking par - call it 5% of the field. How can that be short ? Even boys 12 in 2017 @ Worlds at 6000 yds only 5 kids broke par. How is that short or not hard enough?
    The same is true for girls etc..the distance are okay for the majority, your kid just might be minority because of a growth spurt or cause they have been playing it 12 months for the last 5 years..

    We play yardages from 5000 to 6100 - my son just turned 12. Each round is evaluated based on yardage played..just like the handicap system..

    Distance is not always tied to scores. Pinehurst No. 8 is a true championship course. I found that it actually plays much shorter than the 6000 yards. My son is above average distance and was hitting drives 260 on this course. Fast firm fairways with a lot of downhill tee shots. He probably averaged an 8 iron on most approach shots. Definitely tested all clubs in his bag. The longer hitters were throwing wedges all day long. Pinehurst No. 8 is just a hard course especially in and around the greens. It is a true test. Greens were running a 12 and if you didn't hit the right portion of the green then you were chipping from off the green.

    Agreed distance is not always tied to score or a course rating but the data is the same across USKG regional and states..only a few kids in each division break par. IMO that implies they got the distances correct for each age division.
    I just looked up the FJT Junior tour yardages and also looked at the South Florida Section
    " Boys 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,500 yards
    Girls 11-12 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Boys 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 5,000 yards
    Girls 9-10 Age Division - Approximately 4,200 yards "

    At the higher age bracket (12 yr old boys and 12 yr girls) the yards are quite similar to the USKG Local. -- So why leave USKG Local solely for distance.

    The other aspect that looking at total distance completely ignores the layout and distance of individual hole.
    I could go into a example but I think every know what I am implying.

    FWIW - I have played Pinehurst 8 a couple of times and during Worlds - it is a hard course but nothing crazy.

    I know in the South Florida Locals, the distances are shorter than what they should be. The distance on the scorecards are longer than the actual distances on the course.

    People leave US Kids locals at 12 for a variety of reasons. I think the major reason is playing one day tournaments, if you are an accomplished golfer, doesn't do anything for you. You can get more out of practicing and playing at your home course rather than spending windshield time and 18 holes. You then should have your kid preparing for 6500 yard tournaments where a local 13-14 set up is at 6000 yards. You are also spending around $500 a tour session when you factor in the expense of the tournament, gas, food, and time.

    I haven't commented on the LongLeaf system as of yet. I actually think it would be great if US Kids implemented it at the local level and would abolish the age groups. I just don't know how they could implement this at the regional or World level and be able to keep in tradition with what they have built over the years.

    Pinehurst 8 is hard, but not crazy. Great course. If the USGA were running the tournament, it would be a three ringed circus.

    One thing not mentioned is courses in general play longer in south florida then other regions. As an example In florida 5000 yards may actually make sense for 11-12 especially in the rainy season but head to the center of the country and 5000 yards is way too short your looking at probaly 5500-5700 yards to challenge players the same players. I seen and played winter golf where everyone picks up 50-75 yards because of roll. Distance is a regional thing.

    I just wish US kids locals were played at better courses in general. It always seems like most of the courses are dump with a few goods on thrown in there every once in a while.

    50-75 yards of roll? Wow.

  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    edited Aug 29, 2019 6:55pm #61

    My son played hist first tournament with the new tee system last weekend. Boys 11 at 4800 yards was indeed very short. He's not a long hitter by any means, but lot of the holes were driver + wedge. Our alternative at a different tour would be at 6200 yards, so not really looking in that direction for now.
    I do like the new tee markers, however, which are number systems instead of color.

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