Putter head shape as it relates to forgiveness

Been thinking alot about putter head shapes, hosels, and forgiveness this season. Previously I had always gamed a newport blade style putter, but finally decided to get fit for a flatstick. Results showed I needed a toe hang putter, so my newport was a good fit in that sense but when I tried a flow neck mallet out I got even better results. The one that won out at the fitting was a Toulo SL Las Vegas, but I also could have rolled the double wide model in slant neck probably. My question is are all mallet putters essentially offering similar forgiveness (accounting for correct hosel for your stroke)? In a recent video someone described the headshapes main purpose was to aid alignment, and that different mallets will look easier to align for different golfers. To some degree I get that a double wide thick blade model probably shouldn't have as much MOI as my Las Vegas, but is that really the case?

Have a listen to this.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fitting-room/id686017329?i=1000453611627

thanks that sums up pretty much what I thought

I think the putter with the "most forgiveness" is the one a player swings most consistently the best. For some that may be a Bullseye, for other players it may be a large mallet.Some players make their best putter strokes with a large diameter grip, others do best with a slender grip. For some a heavy grip helps give a putter a balance which works for them , but for others a heavy grip is counter productive. Some players make great strokes with a 32" putter while others find they consistently make their best strokes and strikes with a 36" putter. For some a heavy head (350 grams plus) putter is a benefit to their stroke, for others a light head (315 grams) is the one which helps them make their best putting strokes.

> @Fairway14 said:

> I think the putter with the "most forgiveness" is the one a player swings most consistently the best. For some that may be a Bullseye, for other players it may be a large mallet.Some players make their best putter strokes with a large diameter grip, others do best with a slender grip. For some a heavy grip helps give a putter a balance which works for them , but for others a heavy grip is counter productive. Some players make great strokes with a 32" putter while others find they consistently make their best strokes and strikes with a 36" putter. For some a heavy head (350 grams plus) putter is a benefit to their stroke, for others a light head (315 grams) is the one which helps them make their best putting strokes.

I agree with you, but some putter models help more on mishits, so unless you’re incredibly accurate and always hit the centre of the face, there should be something to gain from going with a high MOI putter as it’ll reduce the amount of twisting of the face on mishits. Of course the other factor is whether the sightline is bang on the pivot point or not.

> @Joelsim said:

>

>

> I agree with you, but some putter models help more on mishits, so unless you’re incredibly accurate and always hit the centre of the face, there should be something to gain from going with a high MOI putter as it’ll reduce the amount of twisting of the face on mishits.

>

>

But if a player makes consistently better strokes using a Bullseye than he does a large mallet head , the Bullseye may be the best putter for him/her.

I think for woods, irons, wedge and putters using the club (s) with which you make the consistently best swings is a good thing.

I disagree with the concept of trying to find clubs that may help with mishit shots, because often times those club heads are so large that their size may actually promote mishits.

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Joelsim said:

> >

> >

> > I agree with you, but some putter models help more on mishits, so unless you’re incredibly accurate and always hit the centre of the face, there should be something to gain from going with a high MOI putter as it’ll reduce the amount of twisting of the face on mishits.

> >

> >

>

> But if a player makes consistently better strokes using a Bullseye than he does a large mallet head , the Bullseye may be the best putter for him/her.

> I think for woods, irons, wedge and putters using the club (s) with which you make the consistently best swings is a good thing.

> I disagree with the concept of trying to find clubs that may help with mishit shots, because often times those club heads are so large that their size may actually promote mishits.

Although you aren't wrong, you are arguing the wrong thing. OP seems to be asking about specific head shapes and types vs forgiveness. The odyssey 7 or double wide is surely more forgiving than a bullseye scientifically. No arguing that. Obviously the G400 MAX is more forgiving scientifically than an old Taylormade R510 or whatever.

CURE putters has a chart on their website with putters form other brands amidst their own showing MOI values. I posted the link below. Basically the larger/longer putters end up being the most forgiving.

https://cureputters.com/pages/high-moi-comparison-cure-vs-others

The podcast link I posted in response to the OP’s post is worth a listen.

> @5hort5tuff said:

>

> Although you aren't wrong, you are arguing the wrong thing. OP seems to be asking about specific head shapes and types vs forgiveness. The odyssey 7 or double wide is surely more forgiving than a bullseye scientifically. No arguing that. Obviously the G400 MAX is more forgiving scientifically than an old Taylormade R510 or whatever.

>

> CURE putters has a chart on their website with putters form other brands amidst their own showing MOI values. I posted the link below. Basically the larger/longer putters end up being the most forgiving.

>

> https://cureputters.com/pages/high-moi-comparison-cure-vs-others

Have you considered that I might be "arguing" the right thing?

Believe me I do understand that in recent years club companies have more and more been using CAD and other computer systems to learn moment of inertia (MOI) and other physics related criteria for golf club design.

However, a computer is not able to understand the human factor of swinging a golf club and playing golf shots.For example, while a computer CAD system might suggest an 800CC driver has tremendous MOI numbers and, or, forgiveness, we can all probably agree that a driver larger than 500CC would be so large it would be too bulky and cumbersome with which to make good swings.

So, if you believe a club may become too large, then maybe it is worth considering that a Bullseye (or other traditional size putter) might be easier for a player to swing and make consistently good strokes with than a modern, large head size, high MOI mallet style putter.

As for which is "most forgiving", I think the club that promotes the most good swings is probably more forgiving than a club with which making a good swing is especially challenging.

I understand it is common for people to seek out the club that will give them the best results from mishit shots. But maybe they should also ask why they are mishitting so many shots ? The answer could be partly because they are playing with too large of a club head.

I think you both are right... the right fit is crucial for performance but putter heads do have MOI I have learned. I think the podcast pretty well lays out what I was looking for an answer to, but the argument for proper fit is something I learned recently as well. Assuming proper fit for all the variables a large mallet will definitely keep the ball on the intended line with more speed than a bullseye.

> @drscott266 said:

> I think you both are right... the right fit is crucial for performance but putter heads do have MOI I have learned. I think the podcast pretty well lays out what I was looking for an answer to, but the argument for proper fit is something I learned recently as well. Assuming proper fit for all the variables a large mallet will definitely keep the ball on the intended line with more speed than a bullseye.

But what is "proper fit"?

For about 10 years now the major brands have only offered relatively heavy head putters. These days 350 gram putter head weights have become standard. Suppose the best fit for a player is a 36" shaft with a 320 gram head weight ? I doubt someone can now go to a fitter and get a putter built to a 36" 320 specifications. At Cameron's putter studio I think the lightest head weight they can accommodate is 340 grams.

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @drscott266 said:

> > I think you both are right... the right fit is crucial for performance but putter heads do have MOI I have learned. I think the podcast pretty well lays out what I was looking for an answer to, but the argument for proper fit is something I learned recently as well. Assuming proper fit for all the variables a large mallet will definitely keep the ball on the intended line with more speed than a bullseye.

>

> But what is "proper fit"?

> For about 10 years now the major brands have only offered relatively heavy head putters. These days 350 gram putter head weights have become standard. Suppose the best fit for a player is a 36" shaft with a 320 gram head weight ? I doubt someone can now go to a fitter and get a putter built to a 36" 320 specifications. At Cameron's putter studio I think the lightest head weight they can accommodate is 340 grams.

I see what you’re saying, I suppose my concept of proper fit is within the constraints of what is available to retail. My for instance is I played a Newport fo forever until I got my Toulon #7... didn’t know what I was missing. A lot of that is due to stroke matching my head and hosel. Beyond that though the head has so much stability it allows me to slightly miss the sweet spot and get a good roll.

> @drscott266 said:, I suppose my concept of proper fit is within the constraints of what is available to retail.

You are not alone. The putter industry producers, fitters, consumers etc... have essentially come to accept and embrace the concept that 350 gram putter heads are good for most players, if not everybody.

But I have a couple of questions :smile:

1) are putting averages better today than they were 35 years ago, when Ping Ansers, John Reuter Jr. Bullseyes, Wilson 8802's and other 300 to 320 gram putter heads were the industry standard?

2) if Nicklaus won his Majors using a 320 gram George Low Wizard putter and Tiger won his Majors using a 318 gram Scotty Cameron , why has the industry abandoned this weight? * before answering, see question #1 above

So with two equally fit putters...all specs equal (except weight possibly)...a bullseye vs an evnroll ER9...please explain how the bullseye will ever be more forgiving.

I'm not saying you won't roll the bullseye better, I'm saying the er9 if rolled the same will be more forgiving.

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @drscott266 said:, I suppose my concept of proper fit is within the constraints of what is available to retail.

>

> You are not alone. The putter industry producers, fitters, consumers etc... have essentially come to accept and embrace the concept that 350 gram putter heads are good for most players, if not everybody.

> But I have a couple of questions :smile:

>

> 1) are putting averages better today than they were 35 years ago, when Ping Ansers, John Reuter Jr. Bullseyes, Wilson 8802's and other 300 to 320 gram putter heads were the industry standard?

> 2) if Nicklaus won his Majors using a 320 gram George Low Wizard putter and Tiger won his Majors using a 318 gram Scotty Cameron , why has the industry abandoned this weight? * before answering, see question #1 above

>

>

>

Greens 35 years ago don’t hold a candle to greens today, agronomy has advanced that much. If a lighter putter works for you go with it! For me stroke lab helped smooth out my stroke, other folks here hate it. No one right answer for everyone, that’s why they make so many putters.

> @5hort5tuff said:

> So with two equally fit putters...all specs equal (except weight possibly)...a bullseye vs an evnroll ER9...please explain how the bullseye will ever be more forgiving.

>

> I'm not saying you won't roll the bullseye better, I'm saying the er9 if rolled the same will be more forgiving.

Have you ever swung a Bullseye putter ?

It's head shape, size, weight, slender profile, flowing neck, rounded graceful lines etc... all promote a smooth tempo putting stroke. I expect that if a player spent 5 minutes on a putting green with a Buillseye and 5 minutes on a green with a large mallet like the Er9, he/she would make better strokes, and strike more solid putts, with the Bullseye.

> @drscott266 said: No one right answer for everyone, that’s why they make so many putters.

But they don't "make so many putters". If you visit a retail store or shop online for a traditional weight putter head you will not find one.

You wrote "no one right answer for everyone", and I agree with that comment. However the putter company executives believe there is one right answer, and that is a heavy head putter.

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @5hort5tuff said:

> > So with two equally fit putters...all specs equal (except weight possibly)...a bullseye vs an evnroll ER9...please explain how the bullseye will ever be more forgiving.

> >

> > I'm not saying you won't roll the bullseye better, I'm saying the er9 if rolled the same will be more forgiving.

>

> Have you ever swung a Bullseye putter ?

> It's head shape, size, weight, slender profile, flowing neck, rounded graceful lines etc... all promote a smooth tempo putting stroke. I expect that if a player spent 5 minutes on a putting green with a Buillseye and 5 minutes on a green with a large mallet like the Er9, he/she would make better strokes, and strike more solid putts, with the Bullseye.

Yes I have used a bullseye and there is a reason why no one uses them anymore. One thing I can guarantee is that the bullseye is less forgiving. We appear to be speaking different languages here unfortunately, I will see myself out of this one.

Couple of serious questions that aren't rhetorical:

1. If high MOI putters offer the most forgiveness based on statistical and scientific data, why wouldn't everyone use them? Pros included - they miss the sweet spot on occasion and pull and push putts?

2. What are the disadvantages to having a high MOI putter compared to a Newport, Ping Anser, Juno, etc?

I'm confused as to why anyone would use anything else unless a blade provides something that a high MOI putter doesn't (scientifically speaking, I am not talking "looks" or "feel", etc.) - because with enough time, you feel like someone would groove their feel or groove the look of a high MOI putter and use that more efficiently than a blade based on pure science and statistics.

Seriously looking for some insight as to why a blade might be better scientifically or why it might help make more putts vs a mallet/high MOI.

> @collindm1 said:

> Couple of serious questions that aren't rhetorical:

>

> 1. If high MOI putters offer the most forgiveness based on statistical and scientific data, why wouldn't everyone use them? Pros included - they miss the sweet spot on occasion and pull and push putts?

> 2. What are the disadvantages to having a high MOI putter compared to a Newport, Ping Anser, Juno, etc?

>

> I'm confused as to why anyone would use anything else unless a blade provides something that a high MOI putter doesn't (scientifically speaking, I am not talking "looks" or "feel", etc.) - because with enough time, you feel like someone would groove their feel or groove the look of a high MOI putter and use that more efficiently than a blade based on pure science and statistics.

>

> Seriously looking for some insight as to why a blade might be better scientifically or why it might help make more putts vs a mallet/high MOI.

>

It’s no different than blades to cavity backs in my opinion. Personally, although I regularly shoot in the 70s, I can’t ever imagine hitting my irons well enough to use blades instead of cavity backs. But pros do.

This thread has gone in a way different direction that I ever imagined, but that’s what I love about this forum. I still maintain the idea you play what you like, or what helps shoot the lowest scores... in some people’s cases those two aren’t mutually exclusive. I love blade irons, but I will definitely not shoot my best score day after day with them. Putters I could easily put my blade back in play, but can think of a few strokes where it would have hurt my score this week. If it wasn’t clear in my first post I was really curious about relative forgiveness between putter models and the callaway podcast basically cleared up that bigger deeper heads will hit the ball straighter all other things equal.

> @collindm1 said:

> Couple of serious questions that aren't rhetorical:

>

> 1. If high MOI putters offer the most forgiveness based on statistical and scientific data, why wouldn't everyone use them? Pros included - they miss the sweet spot on occasion and pull and push putts?

> 2. What are the disadvantages to having a high MOI putter compared to a Newport, Ping Anser, Juno, etc?

>

>

Answers:

1. If a player struck 10 putts with a Bullseye or an Anser or an 8802 style putter (all traditional size and weight putter heads), and made good strokes in which the head struck the sweet spot 9 out of 10 times, that's a good reason for him/her to use one of these type putters.

2. If a player struck 10 putts with a large head , high MOI putter and only struck the sweet spot 5 out of 10 times, that's a good reason for him/her to not use one of these type putters.

* whatever the reason (head shape, head weight, visual appearance etc...) a player might make better strokes and find the sweet sport more often with a traditional putter , it doesn't matter. If the goal is to make more putts then choosing a putter which consistently promotes the best strokes and consistently produces the best rolls makes good sense.

That makes sense, but the benefit of MOI in a putter is the shots that miss the sweet spot end up closer to intended target in both line and speed. The stroke and putter have nothing to do with MOI measurement of the putter head. If you stroke any club in the sweet spot you will get the best result possible for your swing factors, that’s not forgiveness though... forgiveness is getting a bette result from a less than purely struck shot. MOI putters will offer that, a bulls eye will not.

> @Joelsim said:

> >

>

> It’s no different than blades to cavity backs in my opinion. Personally, although I regularly shoot in the 70s, I can’t ever imagine hitting my irons well enough to use blades instead of cavity backs. But pros do.

>

>

For irons the reasoning might be that a smaller, traditional head size allows a player to make consistently solid strikes from sloped, grassy, hard pan or other less than ideal lies. For my own game I sometimes play a set of traditional size , relatively small Mizuno MP63 irons. And sometimes I play a set of Ping G700's, which have very large heads.

After more than 50 rounds of golf with each set of irons I've learned that I consistently strike more solid-square shots with the MP63's. And while I mishit the G700's more often, the mishit shot results are better from the G700's than the MP63's. My scoring average is the same with either set.

So, I think small head size irons and large head size irons each have their positive and negatives. Whether a player will shoot lower scores with one type versus the other is questionable. I think the only way a player can find out for himself is to try a dozen rounds or more with each type of iron.

> @drscott266 said:

> That makes sense, but the benefit of MOI in a putter is the shots that miss the sweet spot end up closer to intended target in both line and speed. The stroke and putter have nothing to do with MOI measurement of the putter head. If you stroke any club in the sweet spot you will get the best result possible for your swing factors, that’s not forgiveness though... forgiveness is getting a bette result from a less than purely struck shot. MOI putters will offer that, a bulls eye will not.

I guess my own perspective of "forgiveness" includes propensity to mishit shots. In other words, if the design concept of a product is that it be "forgiving" then its likely the design will compromise some other performance factors.

Agreed with what other have said. I don't think the average golfwrx player needs a high moi putter. If you are mishitting putts at a high enough level to need a high moi putter then you have bigger issues than the club.

> @mgm101990 said:

> Agreed with what other have said. I don't think the average golfwrx player needs a high moi putter. If you are mishitting putts at a high enough level to need a high moi putter then you have bigger issues than the club.

I disagree, the #7 shape I switched to helps me line up the putt better and when I miss then absolute sweet spot I still get a straight roll. It’s like cheating when first switched from a blade putter, where if you miss the center you will defiantly miss short or wide. I agree that some of the more absurd designs are above and beyond, but strictly speaking I totally think having moi in a putter doesn’t hurt anyone, but helps some more than others.

> @drscott266 said:

> > @mgm101990 said:

> > Agreed with what other have said. I don't think the average golfwrx player needs a high moi putter. If you are mishitting putts at a high enough level to need a high moi putter then you have bigger issues than the club.

>

> I disagree, the #7 shape I switched to helps me line up the putt better and when I miss then absolute sweet spot I still get a straight roll. It’s like cheating when first switched from a blade putter, where if you miss the center you will defiantly miss short or wide. I agree that some of the more absurd designs are above and beyond, but strictly speaking I totally think having moi in a putter doesn’t hurt anyone, but helps some more than others.

Its hard for me to imagine the effect a minor mishit has on a putt. If i mishit but 1/32" twoards the toe on a 8 foot putt would it still go in? Would a high moi mallet vs a newport style blade have that big of a difference?

If you haven’t tested this check it out at a store, I didn’t believe it either before. This all started when I finally got fit for a putter... had always just rolled what felt good. The fitting revealed some small flaws in the stroke, major flaws in my alignment, and confirmed what type of toe hang I need. Shape is all preference from there but I can say I’ve made more putts than ever with a mallet putter this summer. Not to say I didn’t roll the blade well, it just took finding a mallet with toe hang to match my arc since most mallets tend to be face balanced. If a blade user putts a face balanced putter they will likely have a tough time. Conversely when I tried the massive toe hang model I also missed a lot, it’s got to be in the zone for your stroke to even matter.