Effect of bending irons weak (loft) on offset

I've read that bending irons stronger (loft) will create more offset - is it safe to say that the opposite will also be true? I'm thinking of ordering a set of irons 2 degrees weak to match the lofts of my MP29's, and I am curious to see if this will change the way they look at address (with respect to offset). If there will be a difference, will it be that noticeable? Any help/advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Any effect on the offset will be very slight. Unless you are ultra sensitive to the appearance of offset I wouldn't worry.

weakrening the lofts will take some offset out but will also add 2* of bounce ti the clubs too

[quote name='Reid' timestamp='1318202040' post='3649431']
I've read that bending irons stronger (loft) will create more offset - is it safe to say that the opposite will also be true? I'm thinking of ordering a set of irons 2 degrees weak to match the lofts of my MP29's, and I am curious to see if this will change the way they look at address (with respect to offset). If there will be a difference, will it be that noticeable? Any help/advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
[/quote]

Yes, if you weaken the lofts, the offset will be decreased. This is all because as the face "tilts back more" from increasing the loft, the bottom of the face juts outward a little more in the process, thus reducing the offset. For a 2* increase in loft, you should see the offset reduced by 1.5mm. To a golfer with a LOT of experience looking at irons and with a discerning eye, this is noticeable. Typically though, a reduction in offset doesn't usually look odd unless the leading edge starts to look like it has moved out in front of the forward part of the hosel.

TOM

TOM, thanks for the actual impact numbers. I've tried to figure it out mathematically, but just couldn't get there. Am I still correct in assuming that weakening a strong iron is 'better' from a design/performance standpoint than strengthening a weak iron (for the better player that is)? I remember something like that from a masterclass.

For me, the bigger question is the affect of adding 2* more bounce. I have noticed that when adding loft to an iron (and therefore adding bounce as well), sometimes it effects the feel (less solid at on impact). Tom, is there a technical reason for that? Does is effect club performance and turf interaction aside from a player having a more or less steep angle of attack?

Okay, so I spent my evening in the garage bending and rebending a MacGreggor 1025M 7 iron. Measure, bend, measure, bend...

Bottom line: bending 2 degrees weak changed the offset .029" (.74mm).

I respect the heck out of Tom, and play some of his clubs, but my numbers don't match his.

36* = .143" offset

38* = .114" offset

:blind:

IMG_2985 by nessism, on Flickr

IMG_2989 by nessism, on Flickr

IMG_3009 by nessism, on Flickr

IMG_3006 by nessism, on Flickr

IMG_3005 by nessism, on Flickr

IMG_2993 by nessism, on Flickr

[quote name='Hifade' timestamp='1318261321' post='3652129']
For me, the bigger question is the affect of adding 2* more bounce. I have noticed that when adding loft to an iron (and therefore adding bounce as well), sometimes it effects the feel (less solid at on impact). Tom, is there a technical reason for that? Does is effect club performance and turf interaction aside from a player having a more or less steep angle of attack?
[/quote]

HIfade

For the vast majority of golfers and turf conditions, a 2* increase in the sole angle is really not going to affect anything because it is very slight. Only if the turf is really firm would this little of a bounce increase cause much of a change in the way the sole feels as it travels through the ground.

TOM

Thank you everyone for your replies - it has been very helpful in helping me make up my mind!

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1318344847' post='3656981']
[quote name='Hifade' timestamp='1318261321' post='3652129']
For me, the bigger question is the affect of adding 2* more bounce. I have noticed that when adding loft to an iron (and therefore adding bounce as well), sometimes it effects the feel (less solid at on impact). Tom, is there a technical reason for that? Does is effect club performance and turf interaction aside from a player having a more or less steep angle of attack?
[/quote]

HIfade

For the vast majority of golfers and turf conditions, a 2* increase in the sole angle is really not going to affect anything because it is very slight. Only if the turf is really firm would this little of a bounce increase cause much of a change in the way the sole feels as it travels through the ground.

TOM
[/quote]

Sorry to threadjack but I have a similar question regarding the effects of bending and with your experience, I am pretty sure you can give me a definite answer.

Is there a way to bend a club stronger without adding offset? I play my irons with the following specs:

3: 20 (1* strong)
4: 24 (std)
5: 28 (1* weak)
6: 32 (1* weak)
7: 36 (1* weak)
8: 40 (1* weak)
9: 45 (2* weak)

I've been playing the 710MB for 1 season with these specs and find that this is the ideal setup for my game (look and playability). I will need to replace them for next season because the grooves are worn out and after trying the new 712 line, I really liked the MB but was also really surprised by the forgiveness and feel of the new AP2. The only thing that I don't like is the extra offset on the AP2 especially in the long iron (mostly the 3 iron because I need to bend it stronger). Is there a way to compensate for it? Ideally, I'd love to play the 712 AP2 but with less offset since it would be easier for me to shape shots both ways.

Thanks for your help

Math

Did you mention what type of clubs you are planning to order weaker lofts on? I ask because it could also affect ball flight. Some club companies make lofts stronger but lower the COG to obtain higher flight. If you order them weak and they have a lower COG than what you are accustomed to... they may launch much higher. Just food for thought beyond the issues of offset and bounce.

[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' timestamp='1323570317' post='3922565']
Did you mention what type of clubs you are planning to order weaker lofts on? I ask because it could also affect ball flight. Some club companies make lofts stronger but lower the COG to obtain higher flight. If you order them weak and they have a lower COG than what you are accustomed to... they may launch much higher. Just food for thought beyond the issues of offset and bounce.
[/quote]

As mentionned, I am currently playing 710MB with the specs I mentionned and plan on keeping the same loft for my next set of irons because of the yardages and flight I get from them.

I could always order the 712MB with the same loft but the added forgiveness of the 712AP2 peeked my interest but the drawback is the added offset hence the reason of my question.

Thanks for your input.

[quote name='Mat905s' timestamp='1323571719' post='3922641']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' timestamp='1323570317' post='3922565']
Did you mention what type of clubs you are planning to order weaker lofts on? I ask because it could also affect ball flight. Some club companies make lofts stronger but lower the COG to obtain higher flight. If you order them weak and they have a lower COG than what you are accustomed to... they may launch much higher. Just food for thought beyond the issues of offset and bounce.
[/quote]

As mentionned, I am currently playing 710MB with the specs I mentionned and plan on keeping the same loft for my next set of irons because of the yardages and flight I get from them.

I could always order the 712MB with the same loft but the added forgiveness of the 712AP2 peeked my interest but the drawback is the added offset hence the reason of my question.

Thanks for your input.
[/quote]



Unless I'm missing something you would only have to bend one club strong, and only one degree at that (like your old set). Seems extremely minor to me.

[quote name='Mat905s' timestamp='1323571719' post='3922641']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' timestamp='1323570317' post='3922565']
Did you mention what type of clubs you are planning to order weaker lofts on? I ask because it could also affect ball flight. Some club companies make lofts stronger but lower the COG to obtain higher flight. If you order them weak and they have a lower COG than what you are accustomed to... they may launch much higher. Just food for thought beyond the issues of offset and bounce.
[/quote]

As mentionned, I am currently playing 710MB with the specs I mentionned and plan on keeping the same loft for my next set of irons because of the yardages and flight I get from them.

I could always order the 712MB with the same loft but the added forgiveness of the 712AP2 peeked my interest but the drawback is the added offset hence the reason of my question.

Thanks for your input.
[/quote]

Ok... I see your point, but going from the MBs to the AP2s is a big move in regards to COG. The COG in the AP2s are definitely lower than in the MB. Weakening the loft will decrease a little bit of the offset but the ball will likely launch higher with more spin than with your MBs. Even thought the loft of the irons would be the same, the trajectory will change due to more mass lower behind the ball. I would suggest trying the AP2s before bending them to get a good comparison in trajectory, spin , and distance before bending them. You can always bend them to your liking after the purchase. A shaft change may correct the trajectory issue as well... if you have a change in trajectory after trying them. For example: You could try a more tip stiff shaft with a higher kick to bring the flight and spin down. I don't know what shaft you're currently using, but the TT DGs are about the lowest launching iron shafts out there. There are a lot of variables to consider, but they may be minor and unnecessary. Good luck!

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1323573071' post='3922743']
[quote name='Mat905s' timestamp='1323571719' post='3922641']
[quote name='imaplus3wannaplay' timestamp='1323570317' post='3922565']
Did you mention what type of clubs you are planning to order weaker lofts on? I ask because it could also affect ball flight. Some club companies make lofts stronger but lower the COG to obtain higher flight. If you order them weak and they have a lower COG than what you are accustomed to... they may launch much higher. Just food for thought beyond the issues of offset and bounce.
[/quote]

As mentionned, I am currently playing 710MB with the specs I mentionned and plan on keeping the same loft for my next set of irons because of the yardages and flight I get from them.

I could always order the 712MB with the same loft but the added forgiveness of the 712AP2 peeked my interest but the drawback is the added offset hence the reason of my question.

Thanks for your input.
[/quote]



Unless I'm missing something you would only have to bend one club strong, and only one degree at that (like your old set). Seems extremely minor to me.
[/quote]

Bending 1 degre does minimal change but the thing is that the AP2 have quite a bit more offset to start with compare to the MB... which is the only drawback...

I've been playing PX satin 7.0 in my 710MB and was going to put some C-taper X in the new heads (712 AP2 or MB) to make sure that I have similar launch and at worst, a bit less spin.

Math

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1318259661' post='3651997']
[quote name='Reid' timestamp='1318202040' post='3649431']
I've read that bending irons stronger (loft) will create more offset - is it safe to say that the opposite will also be true? I'm thinking of ordering a set of irons 2 degrees weak to match the lofts of my MP29's, and I am curious to see if this will change the way they look at address (with respect to offset). If there will be a difference, will it be that noticeable? Any help/advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
[/quote]

Yes, if you weaken the lofts, the offset will be decreased. This is all because as the face "tilts back more" from increasing the loft, the bottom of the face juts outward a little more in the process, thus reducing the offset. For a 2* increase in loft, you should see the offset reduced by 1.5mm. To a golfer with a LOT of experience looking at irons and with a discerning eye, this is noticeable. Typically though, a reduction in offset doesn't usually look odd unless the leading edge starts to look like it has moved out in front of the forward part of the hosel.

TOM
[/quote]

Tom,

I would assume that for every * change in loft there would be a corresponding change in the bounce angle but the [i]total bounce change [/i]could be exacerbated by the width and grind on the sole. Is that right?

I would also guess that the change in launch would also vary, depending on the center of gravity. Is that right?

I am not a clubfitter. Is there someway to estimate the effects of changes of loft on the bounce and the launch? These days all clubs tend to have different flange widths, grinds, center of gravity. I am guessing this is trial and error, rather than an arithmetic progression throughout the set.

Any advice?

Glad to see that you and Pete Styles are working together.

Best wishes, Metrybill / New Orleans, LA

[quote name='metrybill' timestamp='1408818166' post='9993891']

I would assume that for every * change in loft there would be a corresponding change in the bounce angle but the [i]total bounce change [/i]could be exacerbated by the width and grind on the sole. Is that right?

I would also guess that the change in launch would also vary, depending on the center of gravity. Is that right?

I am not a clubfitter. Is there someway to estimate the effects of changes of loft on the bounce and the launch? These days all clubs tend to have different flange widths, grinds, center of gravity. I am guessing this is trial and error, rather than an arithmetic progression throughout the set.

Any advice?

Glad to see that you and Pete Styles are working together.

Best wishes, Metrybill / New Orleans, LA
[/quote]

Yes, for each 1* that you change loft on an iron or wedge, the bounce sole angle is changed 1* in accord - bounce increases by 1* for each 1* that you increase the loft and vice versa when you lower the loft. Effective bounce is how much the leading edge is raised up off the ground when you increase the bounce sole angle or how much it is lowered when you lower the bounce sole angle. it is tied to the sole width, so when you change loft on the same head model, the effective bounce just is factored in with the bounce angle change when you change the loft. So it is in effect a constant in all this for the same head model.

Launch angle changes by different increments per each change in loft for each different iron head. For example, with a 27* #5 iron, when you change loft, for each 1* change in the loft of that 5 iron, the launch angle changes by 0.55*. So if you lower the loft from 27* to 26*, the launch angle lowers by 0.55* and if you increase loft from 27* to 28*, the launchy angle increases by 0.55*.

But then on a 9 iron for example, with a 43" #9 iron, for each 1* change in the loft of that 9 iron, the launch angle changes by 0.35*. So if you lower the loft from 43* to 42*, the launch angle lowers by 0.35* and if you increase loft from 43* to 44*, the launch angle increases by 0.35*.

Of course if you change loft on any iron by way more than 1*, then this launch angle change begins to slide in progression with the amount of loft change.

As to the CG effect, that is going to be really slight because the increment of CG change for each degree of loft change is miniscule. Yes, here again if you change the loft by a whole lot, such as say 4*, then the CG change is going to be greater. But you really would have a hard time separating what change in the launch angle and shot height is coming from the degree change in loft vs what is coming separately from the CG change. That would be a massively complex situation to try to calculate and separate out.

Bottom line is the loft change is always much greater in its effect on launch angle and shot shape than any CG change that would come along with the loft change. So we forget about the CG change when we change loft and just key into what the loft change does to the launch angle and shot shape and leave it at that.

In short, to think about the effect of a CG change when you change loft is overkill and something to just let go of when you think about shot results.

TOM

[quote name='Mat905s' timestamp='1323612524' post='3923573']


Bending 1 degre does minimal change but the thing is that the AP2 have quite a bit more offset to start with compare to the MB... which is the only drawback...

I've been playing PX satin 7.0 in my 710MB and was going to put some C-taper X in the new heads (712 AP2 or MB) to make sure that I have similar launch and at worst, a bit less spin.

Math
[/quote]

If you're looking for a forged cavity that has very low offset, you should look into the Wishon 575. Sounds like exactly what you're looking for. This set has constant low offset all the way through the 3i. Very unique in this regard, because most sets have progressive offset into the longer irons

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1408977473' post='10002633']
[quote name='metrybill' timestamp='1408818166' post='9993891']
I would assume that for every * change in loft there would be a corresponding change in the bounce angle but the [i]total bounce change [/i]could be exacerbated by the width and grind on the sole. Is that right?

I would also guess that the change in launch would also vary, depending on the center of gravity. Is that right?

I am not a clubfitter. Is there someway to estimate the effects of changes of loft on the bounce and the launch? These days all clubs tend to have different flange widths, grinds, center of gravity. I am guessing this is trial and error, rather than an arithmetic progression throughout the set.

Any advice?

Glad to see that you and Pete Styles are working together.

Best wishes, Metrybill / New Orleans, LA
[/quote]

Yes, for each 1* that you change loft on an iron or wedge, the bounce sole angle is changed 1* in accord - bounce increases by 1* for each 1* that you increase the loft and vice versa when you lower the loft. Effective bounce is how much the leading edge is raised up off the ground when you increase the bounce sole angle or how much it is lowered when you lower the bounce sole angle. it is tied to the sole width, so when you change loft on the same head model, the effective bounce just is factored in with the bounce angle change when you change the loft. So it is in effect a constant in all this for the same head model.

Launch angle changes by different increments per each change in loft for each different iron head. For example, with a 27* #5 iron, when you change loft, for each 1* change in the loft of that 5 iron, the launch angle changes by 0.55*. So if you lower the loft from 27* to 26*, the launch angle lowers by 0.55* and if you increase loft from 27* to 28*, the launchy angle increases by 0.55*.

But then on a 9 iron for example, with a 43" #9 iron, for each 1* change in the loft of that 9 iron, the launch angle changes by 0.35*. So if you lower the loft from 43* to 42*, the launch angle lowers by 0.35* and if you increase loft from 43* to 44*, the launch angle increases by 0.35*.

Of course if you change loft on any iron by way more than 1*, then this launch angle change begins to slide in progression with the amount of loft change.

As to the CG effect, that is going to be really slight because the increment of CG change for each degree of loft change is miniscule. Yes, here again if you change the loft by a whole lot, such as say 4*, then the CG change is going to be greater. But you really would have a hard time separating what change in the launch angle and shot height is coming from the degree change in loft vs what is coming separately from the CG change. That would be a massively complex situation to try to calculate and separate out.

Bottom line is the loft change is always much greater in its effect on launch angle and shot shape than any CG change that would come along with the loft change. So we forget about the CG change when we change loft and just key into what the loft change does to the launch angle and shot shape and leave it at that.

In short, to think about the effect of a CG change when you change loft is overkill and something to just let go of when you think about shot results.

TOM
[/quote]
Thanks, Mr. Wishon. Very informative. This and your earlier explanation of the effect of loft change on offset have told me everything I would like to know on the subject.

metrybill

Cwebb, thanks to you, too. I will look at those Wishon 575 irons.

Any thoughts on how much offset improves ball first contact for those who tend to hit the "fats" because of lack of practice?

[quote name='Reid' timestamp='1318202040' post='3649431']
I've read that bending irons stronger (loft) will create more offset - is it safe to say that the opposite will also be true? I'm thinking of ordering a set of irons 2 degrees weak to match the lofts of my MP29's, and I am curious to see if this will change the way they look at address (with respect to offset). If there will be a difference, will it be that noticeable? Any help/advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
[/quote]

adds bounce