How to talk about golf

How to have a discussion on the Internet: A guide to logic and reason.

Recently I have noticed a significant number of threads where all logic and reason are abandoned in favor of the virtual equivalent of 3rd graders on a playground saying "Nuh uh, your Mom is stupid!". Since these forums are a place where many people come to enjoy talking about the sport they are passionate about I feel it is my duty to lay down some basic principles of logic that when followed can lead to meaningful discussions on virtually any topic. I'm going to mention some specific examples and there are a few pet peeves of mine I'll mention, but this isn't meant to be aimed at any one person or topic.

First, let me just start by saying this: Your handicap does not indicate your knowledge about the game, your intelligence or the righteousness of your perspective. This applies to both good players and bad, your golf game is nothing more than your ability to shoot a score. You can have a good player who knows little to nothing about mechanics or equipment, likewise you can have a bad player who knows a tremendous amount about those same things. There are many things that go into a golf game: natural ability, coordination, feel, flexibility, dexterity, speed, strength, time, course management, mental toughness, intelligence. There is no single number or measure on the internet that can tell you how valid someone's opinion is, so you shouldn't make assumptions based on handicap or any other measure of skill. As a hypothetical: Tom Wishon may be a 15 handicap (I have no idea what his handicap is, it's just an example) but no one here is going to question his knowledge about building golf clubs (or they shouldn't anyway, the guy is a walking encyclopedia).

Second, handicap is a measure of your potential to shoot a certain number on a given day at the golf course. It is not in any way, shape or form a measure of the different parts of your golf game. However, this is a tricky subject because there are general conclusions you can draw from a handicap so let's delve a little further into this. In order to continue you need a basic knowledge of the difference between a causal relationship and a correlation. For those of you who never took statistics or psychology classes (where studies are performed) I'll give you the bare bones:

A causal relationship is a 1:1 relationship, it means that one action will always cause a certain effect. For example, if I were to say "If you don't wear sunscreen you will get sunburned playing a round of golf" That would be an attempt to draw a casual relationship. In order for it to be true, every time you don't wear sunscreen while golfing you would have to get burned. Obviously this isn't the case, so my logic behind the statement would be flawed and it would be easy to prove. A correlation is a relationship where one action is related to an effect but doesn't always cause it. Using the same example "If you don't wear sunscreen you might get sunburned" would be drawing a correlation. In this case we are saying that there is a relationship but it isn't always going to be the case. When dealing with correlations the question generally becomes: How strong is the correlation and is it statistically significant? If 10% of people who didn't wear sunscreen got burned it would not be very significant, however, if 90% of people who didn't wear sunscreen got burned it would be significant.

So what is my point? My point is that people like to draw conclusions about other people's golf games through their handicap since they don't (generally) have firsthand knowledge on the Internet. And there are things you can infer from a handicap, the problem is that a handicap is a general measure of scoring ability and not a specific measure. In order to draw meaningful information about driving distance or driving accuracy we would need a different measure than handicap, same for putting or ballstriking. With that being said, there is some merit to general assumptions based on the number in certain cases:

The lower (better) a person's handicap the more you can conclude about the different aspects of their golf game. We all know there can be two scratch players who have different strengths and weaknesses, one may be a long driver/poor putter and another might be a short driver/amazing putter. But given the fact they are scratch they probably do both better than most people. The problem with using a handicap as a measure is the higher a persons handicap the less you can draw from it. In order to get a better idea of someone's game you need to know about their distance, their fairways hit, their greens in regulation, their scrambling and their putts per round. There is a reason the PGA tour tracks those statistics, because it gives you a measure to compare players aside from the money they make. Money (or score) is not all that matters when you analyze your golf game, particularly when you are trying to assess which areas of your game need the most improvement in order to become a better player.

As an example, look at any thread talking about Blades, Cavity Backs, GI or SGI irons. In them people make statements like: "If the pros don't all play blades you shouldn't either", or "I don't care who you are, if you are a double digit handicap you should be playing GI irons", or "I used to play to a +2 handicap and I got some Pings and shoot better scores, you would too" or "If you play blades it will make you a better player". All of those statements are what I refer to as "blanket statements" they are attempting to draw a causal relationship between pros and amateurs, handicap and ballstriking and their game vs other people's games. In *some* cases the relationship will be true, but in others it won't....therefore it is *NOT* causal. Instead you can call it a correlation. In general should double digit handicaps play blades? No. In fact I'd say it's probably statistically significant to say that *most* double digit handicaps shouldn't play blades. But because it is a correlation and not causal it means by definition there are exceptions to that, and it could even be a significant percentage of people (20% for example). 80% of 10+ handicaps being in the category of people that shouldn't be playing blades would be statistically significant, but that leaves 20% (thousands of people with handicaps) that can or should play blades at that level. Without more detailed information about a person's game you cannot logically draw a meaningful conclusion about them without running the risk that a significant portion of the time you are going to be wrong (being wrong 20% of the time is quite a bit, and those numbers are just hypothetical).

Put another way, when you are discussing things such as blades vs GI irons the logical way to present your argument is this:
- It is my opinion that in most cases people who are above a 5 handicap should not be playing blades. In general, those people will not have the consistent ballstriking ability to get the most out of those clubs and they will be giving up strokes to the worse results from mis-hits than they would get with a GI iron. However, each player needs to work with their teacher/pro to analyze their individual games and determine where their strengths and weaknesses are. If a player determines that iron ballstriking is not where they are losing strokes, then switching to a GI might not improve their game and the benefits of a blade may be best for them. That player will need to identify what the area they are losing strokes in is and develop a plan of action to improve that area of their game. IE: If a player has poor driving accuracy, they may need one of two things: 1) a swing change/adjustment or 2) a different driver/shaft combination. In either case, the individual needs to determine if the weaknesses in their game are caused by: 1) equipment that doesn't fit their game or 2) improper technique. In the case of the latter, no equipment change will solve the problem and as a best case scenario only mask the issue.

In any case, the people who get into these arguments like to ignore anything that doesn't fit their personal opinion. Every thread I see where someone says "I swing 105mph and I carry my driver 285" a hundred people chime in and say "that isn't possible, you're full of it" without knowing anything else about the player. Maybe that person plays a course with a very helpful wind, maybe they have favorable elevation, maybe they hit their driver dead on the nuts and have a perfect launch angle/spin. I agree that it is unlikely that every player on these forums hits 300+ on average, but who are you to chime in and say that it isn't possible? It might even just be that the person doesn't have a real measurement and is estimating wrong, but the attitude to jump in and flame and cut people down is not only rude but presumptuous. I strive in all of my posts to present reasonable advice that can be taken by any person, not just a subset of a larger group and applied. When an OP asks for advice on what kind of club they should hit, I try to break down the advantages and disadvantages of the clubs in question and turn the question back to them saying "Which of these scenarios sounds like your game?". In that way the advice is universal and it forces the person asking it to make their own evaluation, because any assumption on my part about what they "should" play is just as likely to be wrong as right.

Finally, if you don't know something: admit it. If you search through my post history somewhere in there you're going to find a couple examples where I chime back in a thread and apologize for misunderstanding something, or clarifying a position after I realize I didn't know something relevant that was brought up after one of my posts. I'm intelligent and I'm a grown man. I'm not too arrogant to think that I'm never wrong and when I know that I'm wrong I am not afraid to admit it.


Personal Rant:

Most people aren't very honest about their own golf game, they overestimate their strengths and underestimate their weaknesses. I know that personally I'm a pretty solid ballstriker when it comes to shots between 100-200 yards, I played a par 3 course for a year when I started and then played two short 9 hole courses for the next several years where more often than not I hit irons off the tee because I had a major slice with my driver (which has recently reared its ugly head again). I don't always hit the dead center of the sweet spot, but I do more often than not and when I don't my normal miss is thin. On the rare occasion I do miss badly I plan my misses and know that on my local courses short is nearly always better than long, and so I play blades. I do not like the turf interaction with GI irons, I'm a sweeper and have a really hard time hitting clubs with large soles and offset really doesn't suit my eye. People like to tell me that because I currently play to a 17 that under no circumstance should I be playing blades, why? I've found that the good and great shots I hit with my blades have had a tremendously positive affect on my game, mentally and physically. I feel more confidence about attacking pins and have hit more balls stiff in 10 rounds than I did in years with my old clubs. I have never had a problem letting go the bad shots, my problem is confidence in my ability to HIT the shot. When I'm smiling and confident I hit well, when I'm frustrated and moping I make bad swings. My new clubs make me smile, you cannot put a
price on the mental affect that has on my game.

Further, what about my game do you get from my handicap? Does it tell you that I used to shoot low 80s and played to around a 10 in 2004? Does it tell you that I got diagnosed with cancer and had surgery on my leg twice in 2005 and lost the whole year? Does it tell you that I can't swing the club the same way I did when I was 19 and had to completely rebuild it? Does it tell you that I lost my job and didn't play even 50 rounds in 7 years and that my 17 handicap is the first 180 holes of golf I've played in 3 years? I have plenty of weaknesses in my game, right now I'm working on driving accuracy and chipping because those are the two worst areas of my game. Pretty soon I need to start working on recovery shots on the course, I've been failing really hard at getting back into the fairway after a missed drive. I sit down after nearly every round and honestly appraise the different aspects of my game, some days I struggle with what I'm good at too and that's frustrating when it happens...but that's GOLF. I don't attribute my failings to the equipment in my hands, more often it is my mental state affecting my swing that causes me issues. The saying about the indian vs the arrow is very true. I know that to improve my game I need to put in meaningful time, both in practice and on the course.

I don't need to justify my purchases to you, I made my last golf set purchase in 2005 on the advice of the "pros" and my friends who said I wasn't good enough then to play blades (this was when I was around a 10). I bought my combo set of clubs (Walter Hagen WH-104) and never felt comfortable or confident with the cavity back portion of the set. I loved the 7-PW blades and found myself struggling with my long irons that used to be a huge strength of my game. I'm sure some of it was mental, but since I've gotten my blades my confidence and comfort in my ability to hit shots has never been higher on a golf course. Let me say that again for emphasis: At a 17 right now my confidence in my iron play is higher than it was when I was playing to a 10 handicap. I shot one of my better 9 hole scores a little over a week ago 38 (+4 for that 9) with 7 pars and two doubles on the par 3s. I made a very poor chip and a very poor sand recovery shot that led to the doubles. I also missed probably 4 birdies where I left less than a foot tap in for the 7 pars. It wasn't a hard course and so my lack of confidence in the tee box didn't hinder my game, I felt great after the round and it really gave me hope that I can get to where I want to be in the next summer or two.

I have never advocated that someone play a club that isn't best for their game. All I ask is that you don't make blanket statements towards me that are full of prejudice and bias without knowing the first thing about me or my golf game. This is the Internet so anonyminity seems to make people think they have Carte Blanche to insult and put people down, but it doesn't. I make every attempt to treat people with respect, and if you show it to me you will receive it back. When you make a statement than implies I'm stupid, or belittles me then you're going to get a less friendly response. I'm sure I rub some people the wrong way, for that I apologize. It certainly is not my intention to come off as a know-it-all or condescending. I just get very frustrated when people refuse to understand or acknowledge the points I make and then insult me or discredit me just because currently I'm not a single digit or better handicap. In a year (or less) when I am will that validate my logic or make me right? No. So let's try to be adults here, I'll try to let it frustrate me less but I'm not perfect and there is only so many slights and insults I can take before I get upset and want to cut you down the way you try to cut me down. I don't know any other way I can explain how I feel. I know this was a long read, if you made it through I commend you...

Rory aka "Aithos"

Wow, i will return to this once i have finished The Divine comedy and War and Peace. I will consider them "warm up" reads

You shouldn't be playing blades.

[size=5][b]tl;dr[/b][/size]

It's a long read, but an interesting one and a lot of people would be wise to read and understand what is being said in this post.

However, it is still the internet, and people will still be a*******. And frankly, most of the shitheads, a*******, and jackasses who make forums unpleasent are the people who most need to read and take this to heart, who are so quick to judge and post with little information, won't be bothered to read it.

Sheesh.....No one your targeting is going to read all that. I'll assume its probably quite good but.....

I know I'm not.

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1335902370' post='4825868']
Sheesh.....No one your targeting is going to read all that. I'll assume its probably quite good but.....

I know I'm not.
[/quote]

I don't expect everyone to read it, that doesn't change the meaning or message behind it. It's easy for me to ignore every TL;DR but the people who *do* read it will hopefully get something out of it. I would have made this an "article" if I could, but I can't and didn't see anywhere else to post. It was something I felt needed to be said...

[quote name='divotbeltran' timestamp='1335901337' post='4825724']
[size="5"][b]tl;dr[/b][/size]
[/quote]


This.

J/k.

Good read. I like the casual v correlation disccusion. But trying to educate the internet, or more specifically the trolls, won't happen. Being a troll by definition is knowing everything you just wrote, and doing what ever they can to mock you. I liked your article. I too play a club that I'm told I shouldn't be, (910 D3, as opposed to D2). I'm a 15 cap or so, but I like the smaller head and launch numbers spin/angle tend to be better. Most of all I like my club and it inspires confidence and makes me happy.

I read about half of it and I don't get the problem with drawing a general conclusion about telling high handicappers they shouldn't play blades. Using your #s you say only 20% of high handicappers should, or possibly could, play blades. Are people supposed to say you should play them then? That's like saying somebody with a slow swing speed should play an XX flex shaft in their driver. Could they possibly play it, yeah, but should they... Further, if you ask any PGA teaching pro, they will most likely draw the same general conclusion based off the typical information one gives: I'm a 20 handicap and don't hit my irons well. I want to improve so should I play blades or GI.

Once again you don't need our permission to play blades. Do what you want. All this is about is you trying to justify playing blades.

I read your whole post.....interesting stuff.

Though I agree with most of it, as far as golf goes, I'm a huge believer in physics and science. The threads that have the statement, " my SS is 95 mph, play a R-shaft and carry the ball 295"....is the one that drives me nuts. I mean, is it possible they only play windy courses? Or play next to a NASA launch site where the massive rocket blasts carry their ball some crazy distance? Who knows and who cares.......Physics and science say its impossible, so to make that comment on a golf forum is dumb.

[quote name='bananapel' timestamp='1335903150' post='4825964']
I read about half of it and I don't get the problem with drawing a general conclusion about telling high handicappers they shouldn't play blades. Using your #s you say only 20% of high handicappers should, or possibly could, play blades. Are people supposed to say you should play them then? That's like saying somebody with a slow swing speed should play an XX flex shaft in their driver. Could they possibly play it, yeah, but should they... Further, if you ask any PGA teaching pro, they will most likely draw the same general conclusion based off the typical information one gives: I'm a 20 handicap and don't hit my irons well. I want to improve so should I play blades or GI.
[/quote]

The numbers I used were hypothetical, they didn't mean anything. But to answer your question I don't like blanket statements because they can't apply to everyone, you need more info. To use your own example, here is how I would answer the 20 handicapper:

If you are not a good iron striker there are a few things you can do to improve, none of which require new equipment. First, take stock of your game. Go to the range and hit 5-7 balls with each of your irons (3-PW for example) after you have warmed up, pick a target and then grade each hit A-F. Once you are done add up the totals for each club (f=0, a=4) and that will give you an idea where you are at. If a certain range (3-4) are bad then you can move to the next step.

Next I would purchase some impact labels and again hit the clubs 5-7 times after warming up. Take a look at where each hit is impacting the club face and you may see a pattern, toe/heel, fat/thin. If you do then you can look at two options: lessons or a fitting to make sure your length and lie are suited to you game. If it turns out your equipment is I'll suited a good fitter will be able to recommend the type of equipment you should be looking at. If you are concerned about "outgrowing" them they should be able to address that as well.

The information they gain in that process would tell them if they should be playing blades or GI or something inbetween. Then they can choose for themselves, either take the advice or do what they want. But I haven't given them a bad recommendation no matter what their game is like...

Agreed and well written

I love this site, but one thing it has taught me is that golfers as a whole appear to be even stupider than the general population, and that's saying something. You just have to drown out the morons and trolls and pretend they aren't there. Besides, arguing with someone on the internet is like running a race in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

I gotta tell you.....
I know it must feel better to get all that of your chest. I know that you spoke to many issues that I myself have felt while negotiating around the forums on this site. Would I have taken the time that you did? Would I even think it worthwhile to attempt to bring civility and sensibility to Golfwrx? No and definitely no.
Many of the people you speak of don't take the time to read the threads they respond to before they chime in with their two cents worth. So there isn't a chance in....well not a chance that most will read past the third or fourth line of your piece,something they should be forced to read before submitting their email and username for membership.
I have, at times, felt that I wouldn't bother coming back to golfwrx any more, but there are some knowledgeable and very nice people here who offer a lot, so I just try to ignore the ignorable and look for the jewels that help to make my knowlege more complete, or simply assure me that I am still on the right track.
Thanks for your post, I enjoyed it very much!

[quote name='divotbeltran' timestamp='1335901337' post='4825724']
[size="5"][b]tl;dr[/b][/size]
[/quote]


'splain, please.....I don't know what that even means....tl;dr
Thanks

If people disagree with you in this thread, will you write an even longer opening post in a new thread lecturing people on the proper way to discuss discussing golf?

There is so much reading comprehension failure in this thread its astounding! How did some of you graduate high school and higher education with the such a blatant lack of ability to retain and comprehend written information?! Oh wait.... It's the internet, no one reads anymore because everyone wants concise summaries. OP, well written and I find taking internet forums with a grain of salt to be the best way of viewing them.

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1335912919' post='4827096']
[quote name='divotbeltran' timestamp='1335901337' post='4825724']
[size="5"][b]tl;dr[/b][/size]
[/quote]


'splain, please.....I don't know what that even means....tl;dr
Thanks
[/quote]

too long; Didn't read

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1335920748' post='4827956']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1335912919' post='4827096']
[quote name='divotbeltran' timestamp='1335901337' post='4825724']
[size="5"][b]tl;dr[/b][/size]
[/quote]


'splain, please.....I don't know what that even means....tl;dr
Thanks
[/quote]

too long; Didn't read
[/quote]

ty

I understand your frustration Rory, but the audience you're addressing this to probably won't read this.

You wrote "[color=#1C2837][size=2]I don't need to justify my purchases to you" As far as i can see, no one asked you to. Yet this entire diatribe seeks to justify your equipment choices because you have taken personal insult from those who suggest that you should be playing something different. And i realize we are just going to have to agree to disagree here, but many of the lower HC's and scratch players suggesting you play something a little more forgiving are speaking from both experience and understanding. Despite what you wrote, and wrote and wrote, if you are a 17 handicapper with solid/repeatable ball striking with your irons then you are truly a statistical marvel. And you also [i]suck bad [/i]at chipping and putting. Despite your repeated attempts to convince your readers that they can't extrapolate ones level of talent for the game by HC alone, it's CLEARLY more helpful than useless isn't it? Do you not have an expectation of someones game when you hear their HC, be it 20 or +2? I read all kinds of claims on this website from guys who make this superior ball striking claim yet I have never met a single guy who[i] expects[/i] to go out there and post an 89 while hitting a bunch of greens. [/size][/color]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]
[/color][/size]
[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Instead of using obscure allegory and meandering anecdotes, post up some hard ball striking data. GIR from 140-175 and from 175 -200 etc. Putts per round and total distance of putts made would be telling as well. [/size][/color]
[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]
[/size][/color]
[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Or better yet, play what you want to play and simply ignore those who give you S#!t about playing blades.
[/size][/color]

[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]
[/color][/size]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1335917769' post='4827592']
If people disagree with you in this thread, will you write an even longer opening post in a new thread lecturing people on the proper way to discuss discussing golf?
[/quote]

I don't think I have the hubris for that, although I suppose I could consider it a series and hope for them to become "epics" Then I could spin it into a tale about a man who'd had enough and create a made for TV movie!!!

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1335926962' post='4828830']
You wrote "[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]I don't need to justify my purchases to you" As far as i can see, no one asked you to. Yet this entire diatribe seeks to justify your equipment choices because you have taken personal insult from those who suggest that you should be playing something different. And i realize we are just going to have to agree to disagree here, but many of the lower HC's and scratch players suggesting you play something a little more forgiving are speaking from both experience and understanding. Despite what you wrote, and wrote and wrote, if you are a 17 handicapper with solid/repeatable ball striking with your irons then you are truly a statistical marvel. And you also [i]suck bad [/i]at chipping and putting. Despite your repeated attempts to convince your readers that they can't extrapolate ones level of talent for the game by HC alone, it's CLEARLY more helpful than useless isn't it? Do you not have an expectation of someones game when you hear their HC, be it 20 or +2? I read all kinds of claims on this website from guys who make this superior ball striking claim yet I have never met a single guy who[i] expects[/i] to go out there and post an 89 while hitting a bunch of greens. [/size][/color]

[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Instead of using obscure allegory and meandering anecdotes, post up some hard ball striking data. GIR from 140-175 and from 175 -200 etc. Putts per round and total distance of putts made would be telling as well. [/size][/color]

[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Or better yet, play what you want to play and simply ignore those who give you S#!t about playing blades.
[/size][/color]


[/quote]

I'd offer to track my irons shots/results, recovery shots/results, and my chips/results but I just don't care to expend the effort. I said I don't need the approval of the Internet or justification from anyone, I made my decision and it has been validated in my own mind. The point of this whole thing is very simple: If you want to argue with me you better use some proper logic to do it. I am tired of people who don't know or don't care about the difference between causality and correlation. Who don't read posts, don't acknowledge any of the points in previous posts (and still trash later ones). But what really gets me are the people who call me out and tear me down, and then procede to post THE SAME things I said a page earlier in the thread that they didn't bother to read. It happens constantly, I'm answering a question someone else brought up and someone else chimes in and flames me. In the other thread some guy agreed with what I had posted and asked me what I played and what my handicap is...I answered and it turned into a s&%$-storm of retarded.

It takes very little effort to read what someone says, address what they have to say and either 1) agree or 2) disagree. If you address my ideas and disagree...FINE. But tell me *WHY* and try to use logic and reasoning to do so. In this post I posted an example of a legitimate argument against high handicaps using blades. I made *THEIR* argument for them, but they won't read it so the irony is lost. I don't care what their opinion is, I really don't. But if they want to trash my opinion then they better have something to base it on or they're just another stupid troll who has half my IQ and shouldn't be allowed to breed. But hey, I'm just a guy with an opinion on the internet too.

It seems as though playing blades has made you overly sensitive on the internet, what a shame. Have you ever considered that subconsciously you continue to play blades just to spite WRX members and drum up controversy? (this would be awesome by the way)

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1335928492' post='4829050']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1335926962' post='4828830']
You wrote "[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]I don't need to justify my purchases to you" As far as i can see, no one asked you to. Yet this entire diatribe seeks to justify your equipment choices because you have taken personal insult from those who suggest that you should be playing something different. And i realize we are just going to have to agree to disagree here, but many of the lower HC's and scratch players suggesting you play something a little more forgiving are speaking from both experience and understanding. Despite what you wrote, and wrote and wrote, if you are a 17 handicapper with solid/repeatable ball striking with your irons then you are truly a statistical marvel. And you also [i]suck bad [/i]at chipping and putting. Despite your repeated attempts to convince your readers that they can't extrapolate ones level of talent for the game by HC alone, it's CLEARLY more helpful than useless isn't it? Do you not have an expectation of someones game when you hear their HC, be it 20 or +2? I read all kinds of claims on this website from guys who make this superior ball striking claim yet I have never met a single guy who[i] expects[/i] to go out there and post an 89 while hitting a bunch of greens. [/size][/color]

[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Instead of using obscure allegory and meandering anecdotes, post up some hard ball striking data. GIR from 140-175 and from 175 -200 etc. Putts per round and total distance of putts made would be telling as well. [/size][/color]

[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Or better yet, play what you want to play and simply ignore those who give you S#!t about playing blades.
[/size][/color]


[/quote]

I'd offer to track my irons shots/results, recovery shots/results, and my chips/results but I just don't care to expend the effort. I said I don't need the approval of the Internet or justification from anyone, I made my decision and it has been validated in my own mind. The point of this whole thing is very simple: If you want to argue with me you better use some proper logic to do it. I am tired of people who don't know or don't care about the difference between causality and correlation. Who don't read posts, don't acknowledge any of the points in previous posts (and still trash later ones). But what really gets me are the people who call me out and tear me down, and then procede to post THE SAME things I said a page earlier in the thread that they didn't bother to read. It happens constantly, I'm answering a question someone else brought up and someone else chimes in and flames me. In the other thread some guy agreed with what I had posted and asked me what I played and what my handicap is...I answered and it turned into a s&%$-storm of retarded.

It takes very little effort to read what someone says, address what they have to say and either 1) agree or 2) disagree. If you address my ideas and disagree...FINE. But tell me *WHY*[b] and try to use logic and reasoning to do so[/b]. In this post I posted an example of a legitimate argument against high handicaps using blades. I made *THEIR* argument for them, but they won't read it so the irony is lost. I don't care what their opinion is, I really don't. But if they want to trash my opinion then they better have something to base it on or they're just another stupid troll who has half my IQ and shouldn't be allowed to breed. But hey, I'm just a guy with an opinion on the internet too.



[/quote]

This is where you are going to lose many because the only thing you have offered in defense of your club choice is personal anecdotal tales of "feel" and "preference" and what you "know". Your arguments therefore lacks the logic and reason you insist others use. There is plenty of real data that says that players over a certain HC will benefit from a more forgiving iron.

And i have to say, it's amazing that you could spend the time it took to write the OP and now suggest that taking and reporting stats over the course of 5-10 rounds and post them as evidence of your great ball striking is too much effort.. It smacks of fear of the possibility that you might not be the ball striker you claim to be or think you are. You want people to ascribe both "reason" and "logic" to your assumptions and experience alone. It's FAR MORE REASONABLE AND LOGICAL to say that a 17 should probably not be taking passes at a Titleist from 215 with a 4 iron that even the world class ball strikers who are paid to play the brand pass on because of it's difficulty to hit. That is reasonable and that is logical. your argument for your choices is just a bad one and you would have been much better served just standing your ground and telling anyone who has a problem with your selection of irons to pi$$ off as it is, or was prior to this thread at least, none of their business.

I dunno Aithos, I like your posts and this was a well thought out one, but if you look at the "should I play blades" thread for every guy saying that you shouldn't because of your handicap there are 3 saying "play with whatever you want". Maybe you should listen to these people instead of the naysayers.

 

If you like blades then play with blades, no biggie.

BEARS ON TRAMPOLINES ARE FUNNY!!!

 

I dunno Aithos, I like your posts and this was a well thought out one, but if you look at the "should I play blades" thread for every guy saying that you shouldn't because of your handicap there are 3 saying "play with whatever you want". Maybe you should listen to these people instead of the naysayers.

 

If you like blades then play with blades, no biggie.

 

I know Thrillhouse, and this post wasn't made to justify *anything*. Just like I wasn't in the other thread earlier today, the thought never even entered my mind. Other people either didn't read what I had to say or misunderstood what I was saying and then dragged the conversation that way kicking and screaming. I've said repeatedly I don't care, the reason I'm not willing to expend the effort has nothing to do with being lazy...it has to do with the fact that *I* don't care if they think I should be playing them. I'm one of the people in those threads who advocates playing what you want.

 

In the thread earlier I posted and I quote:

 

GI irons don't have the same dispersion or accuracy as players/blades, so if you strike them well you won't really pick up any GIR and you might actually find that your GIR go down. GI irons are better for people without good ballstriking and distance control.

 

Too many people think equipment is a way to a better golf score, it's not. If you want more GIR then figure out what part of your game is leaking and work on it. Personally I know my problem is the driver, I'm losing it right again after not slicing for years (and starting the year with a duck hook) and its causing me all manner of problems. But a new driver isn't my solution, I'm not even adjusting it yet (R11)...it's a swing problem...

 

It was never about me or what I play. Someone in that thread asked me what I play and my handicap which immediately derailed the thread because of all the people jumping in to flame me. I posted a scorecard to illustrate a point about people having different abilities within the game of golf that showed my last round how I missed 11 fairways (I struggled mightily off the tee) which instead turned into them calling me a 25 cap and saying it's proof I shouldn't be playing blades. This entire thread is about people misunderstanding, misprepresenting and ignoring what I post. It is trolling and flaming at its worst and I would like to think that this community should be capable of better.

 

I champion people being entitled to their own opinions, but if you're going to flame me at least have the respect to interpret what I say instead of twisting my words completely out of context maliciously...but people don't even do that. I could post the launch monitor numbers, I could get a letter from the pro that fitted me and vetted my decision, that isn't going to stop them anyway, neither are any statistics I post. They already don't care that I was a 10, why should they care? These people think no one should play blades, if I were an 8 they'd say I need to be a 4...it's how they go about expressing their opinion that pisses me off. It's the principal of the thing.

 

But I digress, obviously none of this is directed at you. I think you're one of the cool people here and I greatly enjoy your posts, so I appreciate you jumping in and commenting. Thanks. :drinks:

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1335930135' post='4829280']
[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1335928492' post='4829050']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1335926962' post='4828830']
You wrote "[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]I don't need to justify my purchases to you" As far as i can see, no one asked you to. Yet this entire diatribe seeks to justify your equipment choices because you have taken personal insult from those who suggest that you should be playing something different. And i realize we are just going to have to agree to disagree here, but many of the lower HC's and scratch players suggesting you play something a little more forgiving are speaking from both experience and understanding. Despite what you wrote, and wrote and wrote, if you are a 17 handicapper with solid/repeatable ball striking with your irons then you are truly a statistical marvel. And you also [i]suck bad [/i]at chipping and putting. Despite your repeated attempts to convince your readers that they can't extrapolate ones level of talent for the game by HC alone, it's CLEARLY more helpful than useless isn't it? Do you not have an expectation of someones game when you hear their HC, be it 20 or +2? I read all kinds of claims on this website from guys who make this superior ball striking claim yet I have never met a single guy who[i] expects[/i] to go out there and post an 89 while hitting a bunch of greens. [/size][/color]

[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Instead of using obscure allegory and meandering anecdotes, post up some hard ball striking data. GIR from 140-175 and from 175 -200 etc. Putts per round and total distance of putts made would be telling as well. [/size][/color]

[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]Or better yet, play what you want to play and simply ignore those who give you S#!t about playing blades.
[/size][/color]


[/quote]

I'd offer to track my irons shots/results, recovery shots/results, and my chips/results but I just don't care to expend the effort. I said I don't need the approval of the Internet or justification from anyone, I made my decision and it has been validated in my own mind. The point of this whole thing is very simple: If you want to argue with me you better use some proper logic to do it. I am tired of people who don't know or don't care about the difference between causality and correlation. Who don't read posts, don't acknowledge any of the points in previous posts (and still trash later ones). But what really gets me are the people who call me out and tear me down, and then procede to post THE SAME things I said a page earlier in the thread that they didn't bother to read. It happens constantly, I'm answering a question someone else brought up and someone else chimes in and flames me. In the other thread some guy agreed with what I had posted and asked me what I played and what my handicap is...I answered and it turned into a s&%$-storm of retarded.

It takes very little effort to read what someone says, address what they have to say and either 1) agree or 2) disagree. If you address my ideas and disagree...FINE. But tell me *WHY*[b] and try to use logic and reasoning to do so[/b]. In this post I posted an example of a legitimate argument against high handicaps using blades. I made *THEIR* argument for them, but they won't read it so the irony is lost. I don't care what their opinion is, I really don't. But if they want to trash my opinion then they better have something to base it on or they're just another stupid troll who has half my IQ and shouldn't be allowed to breed. But hey, I'm just a guy with an opinion on the internet too.



[/quote]

This is where you are going to lose many because the only thing you have offered in defense of your club choice is personal anecdotal tales of "feel" and "preference" and what you "know". Your arguments therefore lacks the logic and reason you insist others use. There is plenty of real data that says that players over a certain HC will benefit from a more forgiving iron.

And i have to say, it's amazing that you could spend the time it took to write the OP and now suggest that taking and reporting stats over the course of 5-10 rounds and post them as evidence of your great ball striking is too much effort.. It smacks of fear of the possibility that you might not be the ball striker you claim to be or think you are. You want people to ascribe both "reason" and "logic" to your assumptions and experience alone. It's FAR MORE REASONABLE AND LOGICAL to say that a 17 should probably not be taking passes at a Titleist from 215 with a 4 iron that even the world class ball strikers who are paid to play the brand pass on because of it's difficulty to hit. That is reasonable and that is logical. your argument for your choices is just a bad one and you would have been much better served just standing your ground and telling anyone who has a problem with your selection of irons to pi$ off as it is, or was prior to this thread at least, none of their business.
[/quote]

I'll say it again, because apparently the other 4 times wasn't enough: This thread and my posts in the other thread were NEVER about justifying anything. I'm not making an argument, there is no logic or reason. As I stated in my response to Thrillhouse above I just don't care what you think about me playing them. I care about how people like to derail threads to flame me where I'm giving legitimate GOOD advice to an OP because I answered a question someone ASKED me later in the thread and they felt the need to stick their snide f*****g comment in there. Instead of telling them to piss off I attempt to explain myself and it goes to hell from there. Maybe I'll just start being a dick instead...