What does firm and fast mean to you?

act0fgod · December 17, 2012

Just as the title says I'm interested to hear your definition of firm and fast.

Johnny Biarritz · December 17, 2012

This is a tough one to really nail down. I suppose if the ball doesn't roll out 25+ yards in the fairway, unless there is an upslope or something, the fairways aren't really firm and fast. For the approaches, if you are not able to land a ball 25-30 yards short of the green and let it roll onto the surface, if you want or if that is a reasonable shot, then the approaches aren't what I'd call firm and fast. For the greens, not so much speed, but if you hit a normal shot and leave a pitch mark more than 1/2" deep the green isn't firm. But these are all just kind of guesses, 'firm & fast' is just one of those things that I know when I see.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 17, 2012

If I ever hear a "squish" when walking or if I need to clean my shoes after the round...it isn't firm and fast.

If I see any pitch marks near my golf ball after hitting a driver shot...it isn't firm and fast.

If I can land a 5-iron approach shot on the back five or six paces of a green and use my putter for the next shot...it isn't firm and fast.

If a shot struck from the fairway requires the clubface to be cleaned afterward...it isn't firm and fast.

If the only reasonable shot from 150 yards out is to fly the ball all the way onto the green rather than landing it in the front fringe (or even just short of the fringe)...then it isn't firm and fast.

If I can't putt from the fairway 15 yards short of the green...it isn't firm and fast.

I a tee shot can land tend yards short of a fairway bunker and not have at least a 50/50 chance of bouncing into the bunker...it isn't firm and fast.

If downwind and crosswind shots are not affected at least as much after they're on the ground as they were in the air...it isn't firm and fast.

If a 5-iron struck from the fairway doesn't make that faintly metallic "thump" as the sole impacts the ball and the turf...it isn't firm and fast.

highergr0und · December 17, 2012

When I can't hold a green and my comeback putt is longer than the one I missed.

nbg352 · December 17, 2012

[i]Her name was Lola[/i]

nbg352 · December 17, 2012

When running the ball into the green is the sensible choice on approaches
When the approach shot is a much shorter distance than normal because the tee shot just seems to roll forever.
when a familiar 10 foot, downhill putt is struck with the usual force and runs 20 feet past the hole.
When tee shots hit off the fairway into the rough bound right into the woods when they would normally be sitting within 5yards of where they landed.
When you just can't seem to get the same backspin, no matter how hard you try.
Then, the course might be running firm and fast.

Deceptively Short · December 17, 2012

Like a good links course in summer, or even winter.

Jon Robert · December 17, 2012

DRY

mark m · December 17, 2012

It would depend on the type of course.

True links courses are naturally firm and fast - and rarely, only after deluges, do the conditions change. They are designed for run up shots into greens. The fescue grasses, firm sand based ground beneath, etc - all this works together.

I think you know this. So the question comes down to non-links courses. If a course features small greens with very small openings in front, or require carry shots over bunkers, then a proper set-up will dictate a different meaning of firmness. Properly struck shots from fairways (or in the case of par 3's) from tees - you should be able to stiff it. Enough room should be allowed for a well struck shot to get close. This first principle is articulated very well in "How to Conduct a Competiton." (Even though the USGA hasn't always lived up to their own principles in US Open set-ups - and they were heavily criticised for it.) So a firm course with small greens that require carry over hazards should provide the required room - which usually means mid to back hole locations. You see this type set-up often on the tour.

If you do have firm greens, the approach areas should match the greens in firmness. Years ago, I think it was at Bay Hill, Arnold had very firm greens and soft approaches and even he admitted that this was a big mistake and would be not be repeated.

Fourmyle did a nice job as well - although his 5th point is questionable. Again, it would depend on the lay-out and set-up.

Fourmyle of Ceres · December 17, 2012

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1355765965' post='6081121']
Fourmyle did a nice job as well - although his 5th point is questionable. Again, it would depend on the lay-out and set-up.
[/quote]

It was too broadly worded. I was trying to distinguish those courses where the putting greens and fairways are reasonably "firm and fast" but the aprons running up to the green in front are overwatered or poorly maintained (thatchy, bad drainage). It ruins the whole effect if a ball landing one yard short of the green plugs in its own pitch mark and a ball landing one yard onto the green bounces all the way to the back or over.

teejaywhy · December 17, 2012

Firm and fast means that the ball can bounce and the ground and contours can come into play and be used to work the ball toward the target.

This generally requires drier turf conditions than is typical of American course setups which seem to value a lush green presentation more than a playing surface actually complementary to the game.

An unfortunate side effect of the desire for the green visual is overly soft conditions that thwart the ground game and turn golf into a purely aerial target game. And the general acceptance of this style of golf in the USA has led to course designs that exclusively force an aerial attack and in turn must be kept soft because firm/fast conditions don't work at all. (see comments of Mark M - post #9)