Mother Flippin' Hogan

[dairic]

Hogan was a flipper...

 

 

 

Tiger

 

 

Rory

 

 

Phil

 

[Guia]

I don't think so.

[dairic]

If you're going to keep the right arm bent through impact then you better flip it....

[attachment=2059693:hogan2.jpg][attachment=2059695:hogan3.jpg][attachment=2059697:hogan4.jpg][attachment=2059699:hogan5.jpg]

[Guia]

I am no swing expert but I always thought that if the hands were ahead of the ball strike then it is not a flip. I may be wrong again but the left hand is usually bowed at impact in a flip.

Hogan was a master iron player with great boring trajectory, I have never seen a flipper that could hit a consistent ball flight.

Again, I am not a swing guru and just going on what I have seen. I have seen Hogan play on TV but never in person.

[dairic]

Guia,
You're right that were not talking about your run of the mill Hacker flip...Hogan definitely had his hands ahead of the ball at impact. What I'm finding interesting is how quickly the shaft moves past the in-line condition with the left arm after impact. Look at the first hogan pic i posted and notice how his hands are on the inside of his left thigh and the in-line condition is already gone. Compare with Tiger, Rory, Phil for the contrast. Their left hands are either on the outside or beyond the left thigh and inline condition still exists. Instead of extending the right elbow like those guys it looks like he may have been flipping it with the "unbending" of the right wrist.

[Guia]

Yes, I can see that.

I had a bad accident a number of years ago and broke my right elbow. It never healed correctly and I am unable to get full extention with it (I have about 10 degree deviation). I am curious if after Hogan's car wreck if he had the same.

[dairic]

I'll see if I can find some pre-accident pics to see the difference.

[Guia]

I think the accident was in 1947 or 48. It would be an interest comparison, I know that he retooled his swing after the accident.

[dairic]

Accident was in '49

yep, there appears to be a difference.

[attachment=2059751:impact fo.png]

Found at Jeffy's website after doing a google search. More insights there...

[url="http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?194-Jim-Hardy-Ben-Hogan-quot-Power-Golf-quot-and-the-Right-Elbow"]http://jeffygolf.com...the-Right-Elbow[/url]

[Guia]

Looks like a much tighter swing in later years. Left arm position is different.

[dairic]

yea, It's hard to say for sure but his left arm seems more externally rotated in his earlier years

[moehogan]

Not a flip ... Mr. H's trail hand has not crossed over the left and his right wrist is still bent. Post pics of all the fellas above including Mr. H a frame or two later ... then you will see who the flippers are.

[dairic]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1391961408' post='8629035']
Not a flip ... Mr. H's trail hand has not crossed over the left and his right wrist is still bent. Post pics of all the fellas above including Mr. H a frame or two later ... then you will see who the flippers are.
[/quote]

A flip is not the same thing as a roll. Maybe the choice of word "flip" was not the right choice because it could mean different things to different people. As I said earlier, the inline condition of shaft and left arm is lost quickly after impact unlike Tiger, Phil, and Rory or pre-accident Hogan. Loss of right wrist bend early.

[Hoganstriker]

Left hand. Left shoulder. Left knee and hip. Left hand coming left and up slightly as he releases it with no hang on or guiding.
Right side right hand right shoulder working through.
Almost the prettiest swing ever.

[attachment=2060231:rotation.jpg]

[moehogan]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1391964174' post='8629261']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1391961408' post='8629035']
Not a flip ... Mr. H's trail hand has not crossed over the left and his right wrist is still bent. Post pics of all the fellas above including Mr. H a frame or two later ... then you will see who the flippers are.
[/quote]

A flip is not the same thing as a roll. Maybe the choice of word "flip" was not the right choice because it could mean different things to different people. As I said earlier, the inline condition of shaft and left arm is lost quickly after impact unlike Tiger, Phil, and Rory or pre-accident Hogan. Loss of right wrist bend early.
[/quote]

Where I come from, what you call a flip, we call a scoop ... semantics!

Here's a pic you that you might like better ...

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af203/moehogan_1/MrHtryingtosupinateleftarm-1.jpg

[Jobu]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1391964174' post='8629261']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1391961408' post='8629035']
Not a flip ... Mr. H's trail hand has not crossed over the left and his right wrist is still bent. Post pics of all the fellas above including Mr. H a frame or two later ... then you will see who the flippers are.
[/quote]

A flip is not the same thing as a roll. Maybe the choice of word "flip" was not the right choice because it could mean different things to different people. As I said earlier, the inline condition of shaft and left arm is lost quickly after impact unlike Tiger, Phil, and Rory or pre-accident Hogan. Loss of right wrist bend early.
[/quote]

The inline condition only matters at impact. All these modern players have shaft lean at impact, which means the face is still rotating and the club hasn't reached it's maximum velocity. Why else would 99% of tour players have a two way miss? Still gotta love that right hand-dominant action of Hogan.

[ej002]

F*ck... secrets out. . . !?!?

[dairic]

At impact:
Looking at BH and TW, both have the same amount of shaft lean at impact. Approximately 9 degrees from vertical.
[attachment=2062867:impact shaft lean.jpg]

At impact:
BH's left arm is more inline with shaft then TW because TW's left hand seems more forward relative to the rest of his body than BH's left hand.
[attachment=2062881:impact shaft lean 2.jpg]

One frame past impact, or club head just past left foot:
BH's shaft has already past inline condition with left arm.
TW is inline.
[attachment=2062871:post impact BH vs TW.jpg]

Two frames past impact:
BH more out of line. Notice how BH's left hand hasn't moved forward much, and right elbow still in the same position as impact.
TW is still inline. Notice how TW left hand is driving forward and right elbow has extended from its impact position.
[attachment=2062873:post impact BH vs TW 2.jpg]

Three frames past impact:
TW shaft/left arm alignment gone with both arms straight. Notice where butt of club is pointing.
BH right arm still bent. Notice where butt of club is pointing.
[attachment=2062877:post impact BH vs TW 3.jpg]

Hogan was a mother flippin' flipper!

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1392055481' post='8637451']
F*ck... secrets out. . . !?!?
[/quote]

Secret number 53. Only 76 left to go!

[farmer]

Interesting that at impact Hogan's left knee is flexed, Tiger's is locked out. Hard to compare pics from these early days because of the difference in camera technology.

[dairic]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1392057217' post='8637761']
Interesting that at impact Hogan's left knee is flexed, Tiger's is locked out. [b]Hard to compare pics from these early days because of the difference in camera technology[/b].
[/quote]

That's for sure. It's always good to take this kind of analysis with a grain of salt. It's all we've got though...old pics and his words.

[Jobu]

looking at these pics again, I'm observing Hogan's left hand has not uncocked, and from the perspective we have it only appears as though the left wrist is cupping or flipping. More proof IMO that there is no upcocking in Hogan's swing.

[Jobu]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1392056488' post='8637623']
At impact:
Looking at BH and TW, both have the same amount of shaft lean at impact. Approximately 9 degrees from vertical.
[attachment=2062867:impact shaft lean.jpg]

[/quote]

TW's hands are way ahead of the ball at impact in reference to his swing plane, Hogan's are even. Again IMO hands ahead with respect to the swing plane is a swing flaw.

[ej002]

The neat trick is how do you flip it and take a shallow divot like Hogan. . . while keeping the left knee bent? It's a nifty trick. Maybe Tiger should read this thread, b./c that MOFO is steep.

[dairic]

Here's a couple more Power Golf shots. Definitely not a scooper pre-accident. hmmm I wonder about his left knee during this time.

Does it appear to anyone that his left elbow pit is pointing more skyward pre-accident when in this position?

Driver
[attachment=2063789:swing13.jpg]

Long Iron
[attachment=2063791:irons47.jpg]

[JBOMB808]

Hogan's precision came from keeping the shaft inline with his right upper arm.

[Hoganstriker]

The further along he got the better he got at moving the left shoulder perpendicular inward to the clubhead at any given point in the clubheads arc. Its always curving in an arc.
The whole cp/cf deal. He didn't flip that would imply he was not connected. He released, it's just a little different and also like 5 times better than others that try to do it that way.

[ej002]

His left shoulder doesn't look any different between that power golf swing and the rest. Call it what you want, his if flipping his right wrist.

[Jobu]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1392126762' post='8643373']
His left shoulder doesn't look any different between that power golf swing and the rest. Call it what you want, his if flipping his right wrist.
[/quote]

if there is an angle between the left arm and club shaft, once the swing starts going left, it appears as though the wrists flip but the club does not pass Hogan's center. Compare him to Ernie Els, who is a massive flipper. What we are really observing is the modern golfers steepening the shaft and releasing more down the target line. All down the line comparison would prove Hogan is not a flipper.

[ej002]

I would call Ernie a roller or a cross over release, that in not what we are talking about. We are talking about throwing the club head by firing the right hand.