Local course dumbed down

[Ranchobob]

So I went and played Recreation Park 18 in Long Beach, CA a couple weekends ago. I had net been there in a while and like the track, so I showed up as a single (typical midis operandi) and killed time until they found room for me.

 

The first hole is a shortish, downhill par four that's driveable for those wishing to give it a go. For me the risk reward wasn't enough reward, so I'd hit a 5 or 6 off the tee and wedge on, collect my par or bird and move on.

 

When I stood on the tee this time, the bunker in the fairway that I used as a target saad gone.

 

I chatted with the guys I was with about it and it turns out that the had taken that bunker out, shallowed out and shrunk others, increased the sizes of the greens, etc. all in the name of pace of play.

 

I'm pretty disappointed that they did that.

 

It seems to me that if they wanted to solve the pace of play issue, they could have eased up on the 8 minute tee times and gave the marshals the authority to tell people to pick up the pace.

 

Yeah, that wouldn't have cost thousands and thousands of dollars, but it would have worked too.

 

This happening elsewhere also? Why are course managers so terrified to tell people to keep up? Yeah, you might lose that slowpoke foursome, but a reputation for quick rounds would pay off in spades in the long haul.

[ddetts]

This has gradually happened over the course of a few years at a local courses here in Sioux Falls, SD. The courses started as a really nice, challenging prairie links style course. They have removed many bunkers, shrunk others, moved many out of play for tee balls, removed the tall fescue from the mounds between fairways and surrounding greens. This was also all done in the name of pace of play. But I suspect it was more about churning more $$$ out of the course on weekend days, which I suppose is a by-product of faster pace-of-play.

Really sad, used to be such a beautiful, challenging and fun course to play. Now it's just neutered, doesn't have an identity and many of the risk/reward options on holes are gone.

[HighSpeedScene]

Wouldn't have cost thousands and thousands of dollars? Huh? Having fewer revenue opportunities every single day isn't a cost?

[596]

Don't take this the wrong way, this is just an opposite view.

We all complain about slow play and finally a golf management does something to speed up play and we then accuse them of doing it for profit. Making bunkers smaller, greens larger, taking out slow play inducing landscape WILL speed up play. We all call for faster play....well....that increases profits. You can't expect a course to speed up play and then not profit on that, it's call good business. Simpler designs, less hazards, easier courses = faster play, more players, higher profits!

I walk our course and constantly see places where changing landscaping, bunkers, taller grass, larger greens would speed up play. It's expensive for the management to do this. It's a risk reward for them. If we want faster play, grow the game, we have to allow courses to make money. We can't complain too much when they actually do thing about it.

If we want hard courses, beautifully landscaped with competing grasses of different length, larger deep bunkers, small greens, landscape obstacles, we can't also have fast play. We have to choose between or a combination of the two. Remember, 90% of all golfers never break 90. That's alot of people playing slower and then the golfers on this forum that break 70 every time they play and can avoid 99% of all the hazards gorgeous courses have.

[ben w]

it's hard to keep courses open these days. reducing bunkers, tall grass, etc not only speeds up pace of play but reduces maintenance costs. I personally would rather have courses stay open, than to have them difficult or complex and have to close their doors.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

The day is not far off when in most parts of the country, any course wanting to stay open on the public/muni/daily fee side is going to have to do the sorts of things you're describing as "dumbing down". I know everyone on GolfWRX is a ball-working, 300-yard-driving, 2-handicap stud. But the world is just chock full of people with no earthly use for a 7,300 yard course with greens stimping at 12.5 and a couple acres of deep, high-lipped, flashy bunkers per hole.

There's going to be a formula that works which involves no more than a bunker or two per hole, wide-ish fairway and rough trimmed down to less than ball-swallowing height, greens that roll reasonably true at 9 or so and enough room to swing freely but without 7,000-yard plus lengths in daily play. If it can be maintained cheaply enough and if a once-a-week player can get around in 90-odd strokes without losing a sleeve of golf balls and if the pace of play is at least non-brutal (say well under 5 hours on weekends) then they can charge a 30 or 40 dollar green fee and give good value for money to 95% of golfers who are going to be out there on typical June Saturday.

Many of those golfers are very ill-served by courses trying to appeal to deep-wallet, self-styled "players" who want to see a 90% scale US Open setup every time they set foot on the course and brag about how high the slope rating was from the way-back tees, how unplayable the rough was and how downhill putts won't stay on the green. You can't just send the hackers up two sets of tees on a course like that and tell them to have at it. It's no fun at all.

[TVGM]

Cliffs notes........
My family has two lower end typically busy courses in the $35 range with cart
I'd like to get rid of all bunkers
I can't stand slow play and will tell you to speed up
I can't stand fast players who try to play in 3 hours because they complain/call in nonstop
Everybody knows more about running golf courses than we do
Nearly 200 courses closed in the US last year
Our rates are $3 higher than they were in 1998 while fuel,chemicals,health insurance,labor are 2-300% higher on us
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT JOIN A COUNTRY CLUB

[Ranchobob]

Fair comments, Fourmyle & 596.

Keep in mind, though, this is a "dumpy" local muni. The PGA would never come here on purpose. It's fairly friendly, fairly short even from the tips and when you tee off early you can finish in 4:30 easily. It's near impossible, except for a few perimeter holes where a bad--really bad--shot can go OB.

The funny thing to me is that they could have solved the pace of play problem without spending *any* capital.

State clearly up crime: Our pace of play is 4:30. If you're falling behind the guys ahead of you, we will make you pick up the pace or pick up the ball.

Moreover, this course is, on the evidence, not struggling for business. As near I can tell the tee sheet is pretty much booked all morning on the weekends. I don't know how it is on the weekdays, but it can't be that bad.

I was out drinking with clients the other night and told them about a recent round where a group and I teed off at 6:50 and walked off 18 at 10:10. All of us walking. All teen index players.

For that course, it's not that it's a tough course. For most courses that's not the case. Here in SoCal at least, with some notable exceptions. It's that the course management has ignored their job ("management: see 'to manage'") and the inmates run the asylum.

Maybe other places are seeing the "local dumpy muni" try to go upscale, but I don't feel like I'm seeing that here. Torrey Pines excepted, but that's a special case.

Anyone here live in San Diego? Can I borrow your address for a while to get a residency card? )

[Mikey Town]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1392933387' post='8710935']
The day is not far off when in most parts of the country, any course wanting to stay open on the public/muni/daily fee side is going to have to do the sorts of things you're describing as "dumbing down". I know everyone on GolfWRX is a ball-working, 300-yard-driving, 2-handicap stud. But the world is just chock full of people with no earthly use for a 7,300 yard course with greens stimping at 12.5 and a couple acres of deep, high-lipped, flashy bunkers per hole.

There's going to be a formula that works which involves no more than a bunker or two per hole, wide-ish fairway and rough trimmed down to less than ball-swallowing height, greens that roll reasonably true at 9 or so and enough room to swing freely but without 7,000-yard plus lengths in daily play. If it can be maintained cheaply enough and if a once-a-week player can get around in 90-odd strokes without losing a sleeve of golf balls and if the pace of play is at least non-brutal (say well under 5 hours on weekends) then they can charge a 30 or 40 dollar green fee and give good value for money to 95% of golfers who are going to be out there on typical June Saturday.

Many of those golfers are very ill-served by courses trying to appeal to deep-wallet, self-styled "players" who want to see a 90% scale US Open setup every time they set foot on the course and brag about how high the slope rating was from the way-back tees, how unplayable the rough was and how downhill putts won't stay on the green. You can't just send the hackers up two sets of tees on a course like that and tell them to have at it. It's no fun at all.
[/quote]

I agree with every word of this post.

Very well said, FoC.

[Marrrk]

Ranchobob, is #1 the hole that plays along the driving range, with a slight dogleg right? If that's the fairway bunker they removed, taking out almost all of the hole's character and its only strategic element, then I would be mad too.

I think if you guys look on Google Earth at the course he's describing, it's certainly not some massive challenge that needs to be reigned in for the good of the game. I AM ALL FOR DESTROYING OVERLY PENAL GOLF ARCHITECTURE, but not destroying all strategy. There has to be a balance. You could take out all the trees, rough, bunkers and water from a course and slow players will still exist.

I agree with your last line about a course building a reputation as a place where slow play is not tolerated and groups are properly spaced. I know my group would flock there. Management, particularly in densely populated areas, where they have very little risk of losing business, needs to take responsibility for letting the inmates run the asylum.

[Mikey Town]

[quote name='Ranchobob' timestamp='1392934813' post='8711063']
Fair comments, Fourmyle & 596.

Keep in mind, though, this is a "dumpy" local muni. The PGA would never come here on purpose. It's fairly friendly, fairly short even from the tips and when you tee off early you can finish in 4:30 easily. It's near impossible, except for a few perimeter holes where a bad--really bad--shot can go OB.

The funny thing to me is that they could have solved the pace of play problem without spending *any* capital.

State clearly up crime: Our pace of play is 4:30. If you're falling behind the guys ahead of you, we will make you pick up the pace or pick up the ball.

Moreover, this course is, on the evidence, not struggling for business. As near I can tell the tee sheet is pretty much booked all morning on the weekends. I don't know how it is on the weekdays, but it can't be that bad.

I was out drinking with clients the other night and told them about a recent round where a group and I teed off at 6:50 and walked off 18 at 10:10. All of us walking. All teen index players.

For that course, it's not that it's a tough course. For most courses that's not the case. Here in SoCal at least, with some notable exceptions. It's that the course management has ignored their job ("management: see 'to manage'") and the inmates run the asylum.

Maybe other places are seeing the "local dumpy muni" try to go upscale, but I don't feel like I'm seeing that here. Torrey Pines excepted, but that's a special case.

Anyone here live in San Diego? Can I borrow your address for a while to get a residency card? )
[/quote]

Sorry Ranchobob, but I have to disagree with you here.

I've played Rec Park many times and this course needs help with pace of play more than any of them in the area (except Los Verdes... if you want a guaranteed 5.5 hour round, play there).

They don't put this course together for you... They put it together for the masses. Remember that, after you tee off at 6:50 in the morning, there are still 5+ hours worth of tee times behind you trying to finish 18 holes. Have you ever tee'd off at Rec around 10:30-11:00 on a weekend? If not, try it once and see how wonderful your pace of play is... I've never finished one of those rounds in under 4.5 hours, and most of the time it takes 5+.

Courses like this have two choices:[list=1]
[*]Space out tee times, employ more marshals, police groups and make them pick up, etc... Doing this reduces the number of rounds played, reduces the enjoyment of the game for the slower groups (which also reduces repeat customers) and reduces revenue.
[*]Invest in course changes that will organically speed up the pace of play. Doing this raises the number of rounds played, increases the enjoyment of the game for all groups, increases the amount of repeat customers and increases course revenue. This extra revenue will end up paying the course back for their initial investment and, in time, help them turn additional profit.
[/list]
These are not charity organizations. Golf courses are businesses... businesses that need to turn a profit to stay in business. The more money they make, the more stable they are... and stable golf courses are good for us.

Given the two choices above, the correct business decision is pretty clear. Cutting off your nose to spite your face never makes sense, so why do it if you don't have to?

If you want more bunkers, go to Skylinks. More elevation changes, La Mirada. If you want more of a challenge, go play El Dorado or Rio Hondo. If you want even higher slope ratings, take a trip out to Oak Quarry, Industry Hills or Black Gold.

There are course options out there for everyone... especially for us in Southern CA. We are very lucky to have the selection of courses that we have here. I'm sorry that they took your aiming point out, but a nice cut starting at the big tree up against the back fence always works for me.

[Ranchobob]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1392935605' post='8711127']
Ranchobob, is #1 the hole that plays along the driving range, with a slight dogleg right? If that's the fairway bunker they removed, taking out almost all of the hole's character and its only strategic element, then I would be mad too.

I think if you guys look on Google Earth at the course he's describing, it's certainly not some massive challenge that needs to be reigned in for the good of the game. I AM ALL FOR DESTROYING OVERLY PENAL GOLF ARCHITECTURE, but not destroying all strategy. There has to be a balance. You could take out all the trees, rough, bunkers and water from a course and slow players will still exist.

I agree with your last line about a course building a reputation as a place where slow play is not tolerated and groups are properly spaced. I know my group would flock there. Management, particularly in densely populated areas, where they have very little risk of losing business, needs to take responsibility for letting the inmates run the asylum.
[/quote]

Bingo. That's it. And pretty much no one ever ended up in that bunker because the players all think they're Bubba Watson and that they can bomb it over the trees and to the green. Mostly they end up shouting "Fore!" as their ball rockets into the #2 fairway or they yank it left into the driving range fence because they're trying to kill it or they top it.

[quote name='Mikey Town' timestamp='1392936818' post='8711241']
Sorry Ranchobob, but I have to disagree with you here.
[/quote]

That's OK. It just means you're wrong. (That line doesn't work on my wife, but maybe you'll believe me.)

[quote name='Mikey Town' timestamp='1392936818' post='8711241']
I've played Rec Park many times and this course needs help with pace of play more than any of them in the area (except Los Verdes... if you want a guaranteed 5.5 hour round, play there).

They don't put this course together for you... They put it together for the masses. Remember that, after you tee off at 6:50 in the morning, there are still 5+ hours worth of tee times behind you trying to finish 18 holes. Have you ever tee'd off at Rec around 10:30-11:00 on a weekend? If not, try it once and see how wonderful your pace of play is... I've never finished one of those rounds in under 4.5 hours, and most of the time it takes 5+.

Courses like this have two choices:[list=1]
[*]Space out tee times, employ more marshals, police groups and make them pick up, etc... Doing this reduces the number of rounds played, reduces the enjoyment of the game for the slower groups (which also reduces repeat customers) and reduces revenue.
[/list]
[/quote]

The problem as I see it and the implication of what you're saying is that it's OK for groups to fall behind.

I know they're going to fall behind the dewsweepers and there's no way in hell the average schmoe is going to play 18 holes in 3:50. But 4:30 is not an unreasonable expectation. I would bet that if you turned loose almost any foursome that plays the course could finish in 4:30 if there was no one ahead of them. But they're always waiting.

Case in point. I went to Meadowlark in Huntington Beach this weekend to hit balls at the range. When I drove past the par 3 7th there were FOUR groups on the hole. One group on the green, three groups on the tee box. So let's assume it takes every group 10 minutes to play the hole. That's possibly optimistic. But we'll go with it. That means that the third group waiting is going to spend more than twenty minutes with their thumbs up their....ahem....getting stiff, drinking, waiting, getting annoyed, etc. while the other three groups finish the hole. (Linky for those who don't know the hole: [url="http://goo.gl/maps/v6Cd7"]http://goo.gl/maps/v6Cd7[/url])

That is a pace of play problem. That is an epic pace of play problem. And the reason for it is that about 8AM some group started falling behind farther and farther, stacking up groups behind them. And the marshals have zero authority to do anything but fish balls out of the lakes, so groups stack up and get frustrated.

[quote name='Mikey Town' timestamp='1392936818' post='8711241'][list=1]
[*]Invest in course changes that will organically speed up the pace of play. Doing this raises the number of rounds played, increases the enjoyment of the game for all groups, increases the amount of repeat customers and increases course revenue. This extra revenue will end up paying the course back for their initial investment and, in time, help them turn additional profit.
[/list]
These are not charity organizations. Golf courses are businesses... businesses that need to turn a profit to stay in business. The more money they make, the more stable they are... and stable golf courses are good for us.

Given the two choices above, the correct business decision is pretty clear. Cutting off your nose to spite your face never makes sense, so why do it if you don't have to?
[/quote]

But that's just it. They're buying a Lamborghini so that they can get on the 405. Utterly unnecessary.

I could be wrong. I think it might have happened before (see wife comment above). But I'm willing to speculate that someone teeing off at Rec Park at 10:00AM is still going to be staring at a 5+ hour round even with the changes. The problem is not physical. It's that they let the golfers dictate the pace of play. More specifically, they let the slowest golfers in the group dictate the pace of play. Kind of like Blue Haired Grandma in her '58 Roadmaster doing 48mph in the fast lane dictates pace of the freeway.

[quote name='Mikey Town' timestamp='1392936818' post='8711241']
If you want more bunkers, go to Skylinks. More elevation changes, La Mirada. If you want more of a challenge, go play El Dorado or Rio Hondo. If you want even higher slope ratings, take a trip out to Oak Quarry, Industry Hills or Black Gold.

There are course options out there for everyone... especially for us in Southern CA. We are very lucky to have the selection of courses that we have here. I
[/quote]


Very true. We do have a lot of options. And maybe if I get bored I'll shoot a note to Rec Park and let them know why I don't go there anymore. I can't imagine they'd care. But I'll probably only play there if one of my friends just desperately wants to play there.
[quote name='Mikey Town' timestamp='1392936818' post='8711241']
I'm sorry that they took your aiming point out, but a nice cut starting at the big tree up against the back fence always works for me.
[/quote]

I don't have a cut. Mostly right now I've got a pull and a pull hook with the occasional defend-against-the-hook-push-fade.

[Bogie_Nights]

Hey, Rancho....

Big Rec is the only course I play in the LBC anymore (hint, hint Sunday afternoons are typically fairly quick and cheap on golfnow).

Also, it's one of the easiest courses around. To 3 or 4 putt.

When those Santa Anas hit and dry out the course, the greens there get to be concretelike. To me, that's what gives Big Rec its character. That and the fact that it used to be Virginia Country Club back in the day...

BTW, I would never play that course in the morning anymore.

[shaffe]

[quote name='Ranchobob' timestamp='1392931047' post='8710691']
So I went and played Recreation Park 18 in Long Beach, CA a couple weekends ago. I had net been there in a while and like the track, so I showed up as a single (typical midis operandi) and killed time until they found room for me.

The first hole is a shortish, downhill par four that's driveable for those wishing to give it a go. For me the risk reward wasn't enough reward, so I'd hit a 5 or 6 off the tee and wedge on, collect my par or bird and move on.

When I stood on the tee this time, the bunker in the fairway that I used as a target saad gone.

I chatted with the guys I was with about it and it turns out that the had taken that bunker out, shallowed out and shrunk others, increased the sizes of the greens, etc. all in the name of pace of play.

I'm pretty disappointed that they did that.

It seems to me that if they wanted to solve the pace of play issue, they could have eased up on the 8 minute tee times and gave the marshals the authority to tell people to pick up the pace.

Yeah, that wouldn't have cost thousands and thousands of dollars, but it would have worked too.

This happening elsewhere also? Why are course managers so terrified to tell people to keep up? Yeah, you might lose that slowpoke foursome, but a reputation for quick rounds would pay off in spades in the long haul.
[/quote]

What did you shoot compared to the last time you were there. ... And no I'm not suggesting that we need 15" holes, just that this is a tough game for most.

[Mikey Town]

Ranchobob,

I will not chop up your post and reply to it as beautifully as you did to mine. That level of effort simply does not live inside of me at the current moment.

I will, however, say this:[list=1]
[*]I'm not your wife, but I still ain't buying it.
[*]I look at it this way; At tracks like this (busy, affordable munis that draw a lot of beginner level golfers), it is inevitable that people will fall behind, whether it's right or wrong. At any given time, there will be at least 4-6 people/groups causing "traffic jams" in different places on the golf course. While things like this can be policed to a point, the eventual backup is inevitable... especially on par 3s (call me a pessimist or a realist, either may apply).
[*]Buying a Lambo to get on the 405? I don't think so. I tend to give American Golf the benefit of the doubt. Look at Lakewood, El Dorado, Skylinks, La Mirada, etc... The company knows what they are doing, and they do a good job. Any way to speed up play, without confronting (no matter how nice the request is made) a paying customer, is worth looking into.
[*]The golfers will ALWAYS dictate the pace of play... at 99.9% of golf courses, nobody is going to be asked to leave, due to pace of play issues. The course can suggest what the pace of play should be. They can even request that groups try to speed up. It's easy when there is an apparent problem (one group that is a hole and a half behind), but when the whole course is crowded, there isn't much you can do. You are only as strong, or as fast, as your weakest link. That carries over to many walks of life.
[*]Sending Rec Park a note wouldn't be a bad idea. For the record, I only play there when a friend needs a 4th. Not my favorite track in the world, to say the least.
[*]If you have a pull, and a pull hook, bunkers should be the least of your worries. You need to start a petition to get them to move the driving range!
[/list]

[Ranchobob]

[quote name='shaffe' timestamp='1392943664' post='8711831']
What did you shoot compared to the last time you were there. ... And no I'm not suggesting that we need 15" holes, just that this is a tough game for most.
[/quote]

Dunno. As I recall I scored pretty well for me except for the de rigueur blow up holes. Probably mid-eighties.

Mikey, I think that letting the golfers dictate the pace is the problem--cost and difficulty aside.

Played at Empire Lakes a year or two ago and there was a huge hold up on #10. Two or three groups on the tee.

Later in the round we saw the group that was the problem. The course was wide open in front of them.

1) Is it fair, right and/or in the course's best interest that a dozen groups behind these guys be frustrated because they're stuck waiting on every shot?
2) We called the clubhouse who sent a marshal to us. We pointed out the problem group. He went over to them and came back to us, saying he told them, "I'm not saying you're the problem...." *Bang head on wall* Yes. They were the problem.

I'd like to think that given how such a large percentage of golfers gripe about pace of play, the problem really is a very small number of problem people.

Golf's equivalent of Dodger fans with shivs.

Ok, maybe not that bad....

[Marrrk]

Mikey, you may be the first person I've ever heard say anything remotely positive about American Golf. Here in NYC, they are universally loathed and mistrusted.

[Ranchobob]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1392956230' post='8713489']
Mikey, you may be the first person I've ever heard say anything remotely positive about American Golf. Here in NYC, they are universally loathed and mistrusted.
[/quote]

Heh. I wasn't going to go there, but yeah, the term "staggeringly inept" leaps to mind.

[OBon18]

While most people on this forum may not look at it from a business perspective, I am. My family owns a course and I spend most of my time looking at ways to make it a better business, while also making it more enjoyable to play for golfers. Sometimes finding the middle ground can be hard, but change has to happen.

Changing the entire course to make the play faster isn't something I've thought of doing, but moving bunkers or timing grass lower are things that happen a lot. You have to understand that as a business it's their job to make as much money as they can, and I'm sure you would agree that if you were in their shoes you would too. Maybe if you know your superintendent personally talk with him and give him some ideas on how to improve the play without changing the course. Sometimes we don't get a chance to get out and play on busy days and only see it from riding around.

They have the course and the players best interest in mind, maybe just helping them to see it from your side will help everyone!

[Mikey Town]

[quote name='Ranchobob' timestamp='1392963433' post='8714034']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1392956230' post='8713489']
Mikey, you may be the first person I've ever heard say anything remotely positive about American Golf. Here in NYC, they are universally loathed and mistrusted.
[/quote]

Heh. I wasn't going to go there, but yeah, the term "staggeringly inept" leaps to mind.
[/quote]

I can't speak for the company as a whole... only the American Golf courses that I play in the Los Angeles and Orange County area (Skylinks, El Dorado, Lakewood, Big Rec (sometimes), La Mirada, Diamond Bar, Coyote Hills). All of those courses are in pretty good shape, have greens that putt quite well, are always busy and quite a few of them have good instructors and/or junior programs. When it comes to my area, American Golf can't be doing [i]that[/i] much wrong.

[Don W]

Bunkers cost money to maintain, course manager I know says if the city doesn't up the budget he will have to let them grow over and they only have a handful of them for the whole course.

Neighboring city is threatening to sell off their courses as they are tired of covering the shortfall from the city budget. If that happens it will be really tough getting a morning tee time as some courses already sell the rights to certain morning times for an extra fee to reserve the time slot. If you're single forget it till afternoon. So players aren't the issue just tough economics right now to keep a course to the standards we expect for a reasonable fee.

[golfnut9922]

I played a round this weekend at Lake Jovita North course this weekend with family and friends. We finished in 4 hours 15 minutes. The 3 people in my group shot a liberal, very liberal 108, 115, 115. We played from the whites and the lady in the group also played from the whites. It was a person in the groups birthday, so there was plenty of beer and shots happening.

I would say that LJ is not a dumbed down course and the real challenge is on the greens.

If we can get a round in 4:15 I have no idea what other people are doing on the couse to take so long. I dont really believe the problems are with the courses, its with the people. I am sure, if I was with others that are really into golf, we could have gotten done in 3:30.

This was the first time I have played in Florida that a marshall was actually on hole 9 waiting for us to check our time. On the 9 tee box the clock was at exactly 2 hours, he said we should have been on the green already. There was 2 holes open in front of us. Although when I told him a single and 2-some went off in front of us he understood the 2 hole gap.