The PGA Tour has set a precedent. Will they have the balls to continue with it?

[middie8]

Is there any consideration as to why they are out of position? Case could be made for a super windy day when they keep having to back off a shot versus a Loupe/NA/Bradley doing the macarena over the ball. One is being caused by environmental conditions, the other is just a slow player.

Im glad they didnt put Loupes whole group on the clock. Just him and Kuch. I believe Kuch was slow due to conditions.

[bu11dog]

[quote name='SteelPride' timestamp='1396278290' post='8986463']
[quote name='J - Mo' timestamp='1396276234' post='8986223']
[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1396276053' post='8986187']
I wonder if the tour doesn't enforce the slow play rule because they secretly love the fact the tournament takes forever to play because it brings more value to their corporate sponsors who are purchasing air time?
[/quote]

I think you are correct. And as I said, unless the players force them to do something I doubt the Tour will do anything other than make a show of it to look as though they care.
[/quote]

I think this is exactly right. I don't watch golf live anymore. The commercial to golf shot ratio these days seems like 1:1. It's absolutely pathetic and it has made me appreciate my TiVo even more.
[/quote]

Remember when the Masters went commercial free thanks to Martha Burke? That was awesome. I could have kissed Martha for that, but I don't know that I could find a room dark enough to be able to stomach it.

[monkeynaut]

Devil's Advocate: What's wrong with picking on the new kids?

Some could argue it's too late to beat down the established stars BUT if you put the fear of the clock into a new guy? Then you've adjusted his mindset for the rest of his career.

It's easier to teach a kid manners, than a boorish adult.
It's easier to teach ready play to a guy that wants to avoid to a penalty and keep his tour card....

I hope I never see Andrew Loupe play again. It’s bad enough watching a tour great play slow. Now we have to wait for a nobody?
Anybody who can make Kevin Na say, “I’m not half as bad as that guy” is a walking self parody.

[tgard]

Bowditch lay down and took a nap at one point. Now that's a statement.

[epixep]

Why can't we just stop trying to speed up golf? It's not a fast paced sport at the professional level and it never will be. I hate 6 hour tournament rounds at the club championship as much as the next guy, but enforcing a rule on a PGA Tour rookie isn't going to fix that...

[Barto78]

[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1396284233' post='8987253']
Why can't we just stop trying to speed up golf? It's not a fast paced sport at the professional level and it never will be. I hate 6 hour tournament rounds at the club championship as much as the next guy, but enforcing a rule on a PGA Tour rookie isn't going to fix that...
[/quote]

You can't be serious? You don't think slow play on tour affects the rest of us weekend warriors? I have a wife and 11 week old baby. I'm thinking of quitting my club and joining a lesser club, just so i can shave 30 minutes off my drive each Saturday morning. I can't afford to be gone for 6 hours on a Saturday morning to "PLAY" golf.

The slow tour play permeates throughout the game and it causes average Joe Golfer who's a 20 handicap to take an extra 30 minutes on each 9 holes. After a while the 5 hour rounds of golf drive guys like me away from the game because i simply don't have 6 hours to play golf every Saturday/Sunday morning.

[Upgrayedd]

Slow play allows more commercials too. Furyk is lining up his putt, we'll be back in three minutes to show it to you live. The PGA and USGA have certain players that they want to win so they do everything they can to help them through rules manipulations. Amateurs, foreigners, unknown nobodies, those are the ones who get penalized via various means.

[highdraw69]

Barto nailed it...the terrible example from pros filters down into the game; a 4-some of relative hackers (compared to pros) can easily complete a round in 4 hours -- how on earth can the best players take 6 hours for a threesome? they should be even faster than weekend joe hacker and they even have fans there to find balls for them. in addition, the pros hurt the spectator aspect of pro golf with these ridiculous pre-shot extravaganzas and endless strategic chatter -- take care of all that crap before it's your turn to hit -- when it's your turn to hit, do it!

[Playaway]

All players take a lot of time ON SOME SHOTS. But Loupe takes a lot of time on ALL SHOTS.

[nochct1]

Pretty good article from golf digest. There are always going to be shots where players take extra time. The issue is if they do it on every shot.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2014/03/fact-check-is-andrew-loupe-really-that-slow.html

[monkeynaut]

[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1396285056' post='8987383']
Slow play allows more commercials too. Furyk is lining up his putt, we'll be back in three minutes to show it to you live. The PGA and USGA have certain players that they want to win so they do everything they can to help them through rules manipulations. Amateurs, foreigners, unknown nobodies, those are the ones who get penalized via various means.
[/quote]
Really? If that were the case, why would we even know Bradley is twitchy or Na can't swing without having an OCD meltdown?
How would we know that Crane is painful or Furyk takes forever to miss a putt?
How would we know about Loupe or Simpson with their step backs and practice swings?

If what you're saying is true we would go from commercials to pure action.
Why doesn't that happen? Oh yeah, because slow play doesn't create more commercials. Ads are presold and there is a specific broadcast window these guys are made to play in .

[JimNewton]

I honestly went into the kitchen and cleaned up all of the dishes from dinner when they cut to Loupe on a chip shot. When I returned to the living room his ball had just stopped. It had to be over 2 minutes, close to 3.[size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[SwingLikeElk]

[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1396285614' post='8987459']
All players take a lot of time ON SOME SHOTS. But Loupe takes a lot of time on ALL SHOTS.
[/quote]

He was very slow. He backed off one pitch shot (after hitting into the bleachers) several times, took about 25 practice swings, then after finally hitting the shot, puts it a foot away. Great shot but then has the nerve to fist bump his caddie. Self absorbed and slow. That stinks.

[Lefty94]

There is a VERY simple solution to both slow play and all these penalty infractions that are creeping up in recent years. Put an official on every hole. There is a shot clock on every shot. Official starts and player has 40 seconds or whatever to hit. They get one warning per round. 2nd infraction is 1 stroke penalty. 3rd infraction is 2 stroke penalty and 4th infraction is DQ. That would get things moving. This way guys are always on the clock and it completely eliminates the gaming the clock that goes on. Also with an official on every hole it will be easier to catch infractions and or have players get a ruling much quicker than having some guy in a suit drive across the course in a cart. Less time on rules infractions/rulings and players forced to pick up pace by virtue of constant shot clock.

[golfcarte]

imo, with the slow 'elite' players, there is a hollywood-like quality about the slowness that the networks can exploit.

for example, a five-minute conversation between phil and bones is hyped as a 'rare glimpse into the innerworkings of a player-caddy relationship'. tiger's several-minute analysis of a putt is greeted by multiple camera angles, fades, zooms, references to putts tiger made in important tournaments in the past.

[martinbns]

[quote name='monkeynaut' timestamp='1396286758' post='8987587']
[quote name='Upgrayedd' timestamp='1396285056' post='8987383']
Slow play allows more commercials too. Furyk is lining up his putt, we'll be back in three minutes to show it to you live. The PGA and USGA have certain players that they want to win so they do everything they can to help them through rules manipulations. Amateurs, foreigners, unknown nobodies, those are the ones who get penalized via various means.
[/quote]
Really? If that were the case, why would we even know Bradley is twitchy or Na can't swing without having an OCD meltdown?
How would we know that Crane is painful or Furyk takes forever to miss a putt?
How would we know about Loupe or Simpson with their step backs and practice swings?

If what you're saying is true we would go from commercials to pure action.
Why doesn't that happen? Oh yeah, because slow play doesn't create more commercials. Ads are presold and there is a specific broadcast window these guys are made to play in .
[/quote]

Ads are presold, but network promo's are available to stick in anytime.

[tbowles411]

[quote name='SwingLikeElk' timestamp='1396287515' post='8987687']
[quote name='Playaway' timestamp='1396285614' post='8987459']
All players take a lot of time ON SOME SHOTS. But Loupe takes a lot of time on ALL SHOTS.
[/quote]

He was very slow. He backed off one pitch shot (after hitting into the bleachers) several times, took about 25 practice swings, then after finally hitting the shot, puts it a foot away. Great shot but then has the nerve to fist bump his caddie. Self absorbed and slow. That stinks.
[/quote]
Almost a minute and a half is an ETERNITY over a golf shot. My instructor preaches no more than 45 seconds, and even THAT is too long. He wants his students at 30 seconds because you should have an idea of what you're going to do, take a couple of swings (MAX) and GO!

[sbjinx]

not being a smart *** but what was the precedent. Hasnt the tour put players on the clock before in previous tournaments? I agree that there is a little bit of double standard when it comes to who they put on the clock but its been done. Like others, I would love to see the PGA actually penalize someone for it rather than just giving them a warning.

[nochct1]

[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1396284711' post='8987341']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1396284233' post='8987253']
Why can't we just stop trying to speed up golf? It's not a fast paced sport at the professional level and it never will be. I hate 6 hour tournament rounds at the club championship as much as the next guy, but enforcing a rule on a PGA Tour rookie isn't going to fix that...
[/quote]

You can't be serious? You don't think slow play on tour affects the rest of us weekend warriors? I have a wife and 11 week old baby. I'm thinking of quitting my club and joining a lesser club, just so i can shave 30 minutes off my drive each Saturday morning. I can't afford to be gone for 6 hours on a Saturday morning to "PLAY" golf.

The slow tour play permeates throughout the game and it causes average Joe Golfer who's a 20 handicap to take an extra 30 minutes on each 9 holes. After a while the 5 hour rounds of golf drive guys like me away from the game because i simply don't have 6 hours to play golf every Saturday/Sunday morning.
[/quote]

Do you think that Joe Golfer plays slow because he takes extra practice swings like the guys on tour? Or do you think that he is slow because of poor course management?

The slowest players that I see aren't the guys that would even notice slow play on tour. They watch golf, but they don't pay attention to how long it takes someone to play a shot. They don't pay attention to pre-shot routines, or marking two foot putts.

Joe Golfer is slow because they don't understand ready golf. They have conversations on the tee box instead of getting ready to hit. They don't bring an extra club with them when its "cart paths only", they leave their bag or cart on the wrong side of the green. They try to hit hero shots out of the woods instead of just chipping out. They don't bring tees with them and have to run back to the bag to get one. They think they are supposed to walk with their playing partners to each shot instead of just going straight to their ball. And lastly, they insist on taking carts. 90% of the time golf would be faster if everyone walked (except for some resort courses where the tees and greens are way too far apart).

If beginners were educated on how to play faster and were actually respectful of others on the course then golf would be faster. Asking tour pros to take less practice swings on a few shots per round isn't going to do anything to speed up play.

I mentioned this in another thread, but if the PGA Tour and USGA wanted to speed up play for everyday golfers they would pay for workshops across the country. Have it co-hosted by the pro and the USGA/PGA Tour and invite local golfers to spend time learning how to manage their games (but with the focus on ready golf). Most golfers aren't slow to be rude, they are slow because they don't know any better.

[nochct1]

[quote name='Lefty94' timestamp='1396287719' post='8987709']
There is a VERY simple solution to both slow play and all these penalty infractions that are creeping up in recent years. Put an official on every hole. There is a shot clock on every shot. Official starts and player has 40 seconds or whatever to hit. They get one warning per round. 2nd infraction is 1 stroke penalty. 3rd infraction is 2 stroke penalty and 4th infraction is DQ. That would get things moving. This way guys are always on the clock and it completely eliminates the gaming the clock that goes on. Also with an official on every hole it will be easier to catch infractions and or have players get a ruling much quicker than having some guy in a suit drive across the course in a cart. Less time on rules infractions/rulings and players forced to pick up pace by virtue of constant shot clock.
[/quote]

And where are they going to get a rules official for every group on the course? Are they going to hire full time employees for that? And is that person responsible for rules and the shot clock? What if they start the clock one or two seconds early or late? Do you want someone on the 18th hole of the Masters to get a stroke penalty because the rules official started his shot clock a second too early?

Do you also plan on having someone to handle the shot clock at amateur events, mini tour events, web.com events, USGA Qualifiers? What would the purists say if they had to play under a different set of rules than tour players.

There are a handful of players who are slow on tour. The PGA Tour will probably work with them behind the scenes to get them to play faster, but don't expect a shot clock on each shot.

[Frankensteins Monster]

[quote name='sbjinx' timestamp='1396289238' post='8987919']
not being a smart *** but what was the precedent. Hasnt the tour put players on the clock before in previous tournaments?
[/quote]

They put a single person on the stop watch, before the whole group, when that group wasn't even behind the group in front.

[sbjinx]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1396290738' post='8988141']
[quote name='sbjinx' timestamp='1396289238' post='8987919']
not being a smart *** but what was the precedent. Hasnt the tour put players on the clock before in previous tournaments?
[/quote]

They put a single person on the stop watch, before the whole group, when that group wasn't even behind the group in front.
[/quote]

Got it, thanks. I guess its a step in the right direction. I do think the tour has to eventually address this and continue not beat around the bush. I almost hope there is another slow player highlighted on TV this week or at the Masters so that you get more people talking about and eventually becoming a big enough issue that the Tour has to do something

[Barto78]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1396289624' post='8987987']
[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1396284711' post='8987341']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1396284233' post='8987253']
Why can't we just stop trying to speed up golf? It's not a fast paced sport at the professional level and it never will be. I hate 6 hour tournament rounds at the club championship as much as the next guy, but enforcing a rule on a PGA Tour rookie isn't going to fix that...
[/quote]

You can't be serious? You don't think slow play on tour affects the rest of us weekend warriors? I have a wife and 11 week old baby. I'm thinking of quitting my club and joining a lesser club, just so i can shave 30 minutes off my drive each Saturday morning. I can't afford to be gone for 6 hours on a Saturday morning to "PLAY" golf.

The slow tour play permeates throughout the game and it causes average Joe Golfer who's a 20 handicap to take an extra 30 minutes on each 9 holes. After a while the 5 hour rounds of golf drive guys like me away from the game because i simply don't have 6 hours to play golf every Saturday/Sunday morning.
[/quote]

Do you think that Joe Golfer plays slow because he takes extra practice swings like the guys on tour? Or do you think that he is slow because of poor course management?

The slowest players that I see aren't the guys that would even notice slow play on tour. They watch golf, but they don't pay attention to how long it takes someone to play a shot. They don't pay attention to pre-shot routines, or marking two foot putts.

Joe Golfer is slow because they don't understand ready golf. They have conversations on the tee box instead of getting ready to hit. They don't bring an extra club with them when its "cart paths only", they leave their bag or cart on the wrong side of the green. They try to hit hero shots out of the woods instead of just chipping out. They don't bring tees with them and have to run back to the bag to get one. They think they are supposed to walk with their playing partners to each shot instead of just going straight to their ball. And lastly, they insist on taking carts. 90% of the time golf would be faster if everyone walked (except for some resort courses where the tees and greens are way too far apart).

If beginners were educated on how to play faster and were actually respectful of others on the course then golf would be faster. Asking tour pros to take less practice swings on a few shots per round isn't going to do anything to speed up play.

I mentioned this in another thread, but if the PGA Tour and USGA wanted to speed up play for everyday golfers they would pay for workshops across the country. Have it co-hosted by the pro and the USGA/PGA Tour and invite local golfers to spend time learning how to manage their games (but with the focus on ready golf). Most golfers aren't slow to be rude, they are slow because they don't know any better.
[/quote]

I think you make some fair points. I play with quite a few guys who i would deem as slow. I educate them on how to save time during their rounds. Don't put the club back in the bag after each shot before getting back into the cart. Mark the scores once you get to the other tee box. Play ready golf and don't get chatty on the tee box.

If more golfers, just not high handicappers did just these things, then the pace of pay would increase dramatically.

The biggest problem with the high handicap players is the extra shots it takes for them to play a round of golf. Course management factors into that to some degree, although i'm not sure what % i would attribute to it. The bottom line is if the average 20 handicap sees a 5 hour round of golf on TV Saturday's and Sunday's and nothing is said about, then i doubt very seriously they are going to be thinking of playing faster themselves. If the tours made a big effort to improve this issue, then perhaps the recreational golfer would make a concerted effort to play faster as well.

[nochct1]

[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1396291157' post='8988219']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1396289624' post='8987987']
[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1396284711' post='8987341']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1396284233' post='8987253']
Why can't we just stop trying to speed up golf? It's not a fast paced sport at the professional level and it never will be. I hate 6 hour tournament rounds at the club championship as much as the next guy, but enforcing a rule on a PGA Tour rookie isn't going to fix that...
[/quote]

You can't be serious? You don't think slow play on tour affects the rest of us weekend warriors? I have a wife and 11 week old baby. I'm thinking of quitting my club and joining a lesser club, just so i can shave 30 minutes off my drive each Saturday morning. I can't afford to be gone for 6 hours on a Saturday morning to "PLAY" golf.

The slow tour play permeates throughout the game and it causes average Joe Golfer who's a 20 handicap to take an extra 30 minutes on each 9 holes. After a while the 5 hour rounds of golf drive guys like me away from the game because i simply don't have 6 hours to play golf every Saturday/Sunday morning.
[/quote]

Do you think that Joe Golfer plays slow because he takes extra practice swings like the guys on tour? Or do you think that he is slow because of poor course management?

The slowest players that I see aren't the guys that would even notice slow play on tour. They watch golf, but they don't pay attention to how long it takes someone to play a shot. They don't pay attention to pre-shot routines, or marking two foot putts.

Joe Golfer is slow because they don't understand ready golf. They have conversations on the tee box instead of getting ready to hit. They don't bring an extra club with them when its "cart paths only", they leave their bag or cart on the wrong side of the green. They try to hit hero shots out of the woods instead of just chipping out. They don't bring tees with them and have to run back to the bag to get one. They think they are supposed to walk with their playing partners to each shot instead of just going straight to their ball. And lastly, they insist on taking carts. 90% of the time golf would be faster if everyone walked (except for some resort courses where the tees and greens are way too far apart).

If beginners were educated on how to play faster and were actually respectful of others on the course then golf would be faster. Asking tour pros to take less practice swings on a few shots per round isn't going to do anything to speed up play.

I mentioned this in another thread, but if the PGA Tour and USGA wanted to speed up play for everyday golfers they would pay for workshops across the country. Have it co-hosted by the pro and the USGA/PGA Tour and invite local golfers to spend time learning how to manage their games (but with the focus on ready golf). Most golfers aren't slow to be rude, they are slow because they don't know any better.
[/quote]

I think you make some fair points. I play with quite a few guys who i would deem as slow. I educate them on how to save time during their rounds. Don't put the club back in the bag after each shot before getting back into the cart. Mark the scores once you get to the other tee box. Play ready golf and don't get chatty on the tee box.

If more golfers, just not high handicappers did just these things, then the pace of pay would increase dramatically.

The biggest problem with the high handicap players is the extra shots it takes for them to play a round of golf. Course management factors into that to some degree, although i'm not sure what % i would attribute to it. The bottom line is if the average 20 handicap sees a 5 hour round of golf on TV Saturday's and Sunday's and nothing is said about, then i doubt very seriously they are going to be thinking of playing faster themselves. If the tours made a big effort to improve this issue, then perhaps the recreational golfer would make a concerted effort to play faster as well.
[/quote]

I agree. Perhaps the announcers, instead of just talking about slow play can have a few tips for the average golfer to speed up play. Instead of swing tips during the broadcast they can have some tips for course management and playing faster.

[Roemike99]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1396276620' post='8986261']
[quote name='J - Mo' timestamp='1396276131' post='8986201']
It's one thing to take you time in making a decision when the hole isn't clear in front of you. In all of the examples you give, were the players a hole behind?
[/quote]

The final group was not behind at any point yesterday I believe.
[/quote]they were 2 holes behind at one point... The Tour is Wayyyyyyyy to soft on slow play. Especially putting

[rockinar]

3 hour front nine. No penalties. Just empty threats. Way to go PGA Tour allowing Loupe to take 1:25 to fiddle each shot.

[Stonebridge]

Phil wasn't slow on Saturday. He was finished in less than 3 hours.

[xan_user]

we could print these on collared shirts and hand them out at Augusta....

[epixep]

[quote name='Barto78' timestamp='1396284711' post='8987341']
[quote name='epixep' timestamp='1396284233' post='8987253']
Why can't we just stop trying to speed up golf? It's not a fast paced sport at the professional level and it never will be. I hate 6 hour tournament rounds at the club championship as much as the next guy, but enforcing a rule on a PGA Tour rookie isn't going to fix that...
[/quote]

You can't be serious? You don't think slow play on tour affects the rest of us weekend warriors? I have a wife and 11 week old baby. I'm thinking of quitting my club and joining a lesser club, just so i can shave 30 minutes off my drive each Saturday morning. I can't afford to be gone for 6 hours on a Saturday morning to "PLAY" golf.

The slow tour play permeates throughout the game and it causes average Joe Golfer who's a 20 handicap to take an extra 30 minutes on each 9 holes. After a while the 5 hour rounds of golf drive guys like me away from the game because i simply don't have 6 hours to play golf every Saturday/Sunday morning.
[/quote]

I'm completely serious, and I disagree that slow play on the tour has anything to do with slow play at your local track on a Saturday.

[lsufooshee]

I don't think the average weekend golfer is going to play slow because the guys on tour are playing slow. I'd rather the guys take the time they need (to a certain extent) in order to play their best. I don't want the slow guys affecting others either though. If their slow play affects others, then something should be done and I imagine it will.

I think playing golf for fun and playing golf for a living should have different expectations. I don't like slow play (while playing) any more than the next guy, but I just don't think the tour being slow is the problem.