Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[ButchE]

[url="http://www.turfnet.com/page/news.html/_/construction-play-number-of-golfers-decline-in-2013-r249"]http://www.turfnet.c...ne-in-2013-r249[/url]

interesting read..listen to this "[color=#282828][size=4]According to the [/size][/color][url="http://www.ngf.org/%E2%80%8E"][b]National Golf Foundation[/b][/url][color=#282828][size=4], only 14 new courses (in 18-hole equivalents) were built in 2014 in the United States and another 157.5 closed their doors, for a net loss of 143.5 courses."[/size][/color]

[color=#282828][size=4]how do you get a half of a course ???[/size][/color]

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='ButchE' timestamp='1409658887' post='10048811']
[url="http://www.turfnet.com/page/news.html/_/construction-play-number-of-golfers-decline-in-2013-r249"]http://www.turfnet.c...ne-in-2013-r249[/url]

interesting read..listen to this "[color=#282828][size=4]According to the [/size][/color][url="http://www.ngf.org/%E2%80%8E"][b]National Golf Foundation[/b][/url][color=#282828][size=4], only 14 new courses (in 18-hole equivalents) were built in 2014 in the United States and another 157.5 closed their doors, for a net loss of 143.5 courses."[/size][/color]

[b][color=#282828][size=4]how do you get a half of a course ???[/size][/color][/b]
[/quote]

Lots of 9 hole facilities in the U.S.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='ButchE' timestamp='1409240273' post='10025019']
theone common factor listed in most of the 21 pages is this: economics. Now that is a wide scoped reason, but accurate. One hing I didn't see stated is the actual value of the LAND a course sets on. To a developer, it's solid gold with already landscaped parcels available...meaning the fairways won't require high dollar excavationing. That's what happened to the oldest and best course in our area, with land prices reaching outrageous levels,a fore-closed or one in bad financial state is easy pickings. As for the cost of equipment, it's irrelevant if it's put on a credit card = adding deeper personal debt..never a good thing anytime anywhere. I realize I'm probably older than 70+ % of those here, but I can remember when both parents didn't have to work to make ends meet...not so today, and that picture isn't changing...if anything it's getting to the point where THAT'S not enough to make ends meet. I saw on TV the other nite that it now costs over 250K to raise a child....that's a bunch of after-tax income...we all know wages are not rising nearly fast enough to allow much,if any, disposable income, and that's where the golf $$ comes from. but as more and more houses are being required, and only sooo much available land in most areas, courses are targeted for development..that includes courses who now build w/i the boundaries,who started off with no homes, or plans to build.
[/quote]
I've been watching with great trepidation as "footgolf" is beginning to infect said valuable parcels of land (aka: golf courses.)
There are cities all over the U.S. that want out of the golf biz and into taxable land parcels.
Sad part is, from 2008 and watching that bubble burst, the same real estate developments they started back then on former golf courses around us never panned out fully, sit half or less developed, and well, there go their tax revenues and "grand plan."
Having to watch one of my 9 hole tracks of my youth be made into townhomes this summer. And they are doing such a poor job of it beside, all the homes that are to the east of the course are now flooding due to improper land development and drainage. All so some more ugly cheap townhomes can blight the landscape.
I'd be livid if I paid taxes and lived there all those years just to have someone come in and flood my home. Wow.

[ButchE]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1409661108' post='10048955']

Lots of 9 hole facilities in the U.S.
[/quote]

thought that would be it..thanks !!

[rlynham]

I used to live just north of Atlanta and there were obviously too many golf courses there. Many of them got little play and this was back before 2008. It seemed like whenever a big new housing development went up it had to have a golf course.

I think one thing they could do to help the game is to start promoting 9 hole play. It seems like many courses don't offer 9 hole rates or if they do the rates are too high.

[fowlerscousin]

pace of play is unbeareable in my area. people with handicaps over 15 really shouldnt be allowed to play.
im jk. but seriously there needs to be a lost ball rule. any ball hit in the woods must be abandoned, not searched for more than 5 seconds or something. i see people combing the ob area like wtf, they have the provisional rule for this.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1409842065' post='10063137']
I used to live just north of Atlanta and there were obviously too many golf courses there. Many of them got little play and this was back before 2008. It seemed like whenever a big new housing development went up it had to have a golf course.

I think one thing they could do to help the game is to start promoting 9 hole play. It seems like many courses don't offer 9 hole rates or if they do the rates are too high.
[/quote]

I'm seeing more and more courses offering early morning 9 hole rates. They send the players off on the back nine, so as long as they keep pace, the course can fit 12-14 groups on the back before the front nine players make the turn.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='fowlerscousin' timestamp='1409842336' post='10063169']
pace of play is unbeareable in my area. people with handicaps over 15 really shouldnt be allowed to play.
im jk. but seriously there needs to be a lost ball rule. any ball hit in the woods must be abandoned, not searched for more than 5 seconds or something. i see people combing the ob area like wtf, they have the provisional rule for this.
[/quote]

I really don't see why it has anything to do with handicap or skill level. I've played with more of my share of low cappers that played at the pace of a snail, and searched for lost balls endlessly. OTOH, I've played with hundreds of hacks that didn't take 12 practice swings, and kept pace. Basically, slow play comes in all colors.

[borker]

[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1409845518' post='10063557']
I really don't see why it has anything to do with handicap or skill level. I've played with more of my share of low cappers that played at the pace of a snail, and searched for lost balls endlessly. OTOH, I've played with hundreds of hacks that didn't take 12 practice swings, and kept pace. Basically, slow play comes in all colors.
[/quote]

This.

But I have to agree the majority of times it does come from higher handicaps. Not always because of poor tee-green ability though, more of a lack of consideration for how bad they are and that they are effecting play behind them for rest of day. The game is very hard for beginners and they just need to accept that they are going to lose balls, hit fat/thin, duff tee shots, etc and just move on quickly until they start to get better.

Us more experienced/better players need to TEACH random pairings with bad players how to speed up pace rather than just want them all to go away. Chasing them away is part of the problem (behind economic at the moment). Some will be stubborn and still continue to take 8 minutes looking for each ball or 5 practice swings to just top it anyway, but a lot of them will be open to etiquette for others behind the group, especially if you can see them waiting.

[jrice19]

Not here in AZ.

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='jrice19' timestamp='1409969707' post='10073327']
Not here in AZ.
[/quote]

I understand why you say this because I get how it looks here. But honestly talk to people who've worked in the industry here for ten or more years.

They have absolutely taken a BEATING out here, albeit not as bad as other areas of the country.

[xrt99]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408903046' post='9998281']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408891204' post='9997527']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408888940' post='9997393']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408840960' post='9995415']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408801138' post='9992679']
So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?
[/quote]

The WSOP only decreased because the us banned American players from playing online poker.
[/quote]

Inaccurate.
[/quote]

I see facts are unnecessary here.
[/quote]

Like the facts you supplied to back up your claim that the WSOP attendance is down because of on line poker?

[b]U.S. Players can still play online poker for real money.[/b]
[/quote]

Sure they can, but they can't play against the rest of the world, and for most of the last 6 years they've been on the losing end of a legal battle to get the game back to the levels of play that existed prior to the shutdown of the major sites in the US. The shutdown has absolutely impacted the WSOP in terms of attendance, viewership and participation. Do some research before you start spouting off inaccurate information.

[pilot25]

[quote name='HipCheck' timestamp='1398261946' post='9150711']As golf nuts here, most of us "don't care if we lose players or grow the game." Who doesn't want less crowds? More quality, less quantity, right?

Unfortunately that means more expense for us golfers as well. Courses will need to charge more per golfer to make up for lost revenue. My local county courses are a perfect example. 4 county courses which then added another 10 years ago to accommodate the growing golf population.

Last year, participation finally dwindled to the tune of $2MM deficit. They have now farmed out the management to Billy Casper Golf. Fired all county employees a week before the announcement.

Courses opened up this year in sorry shape. Ragged bunker edges. Crappy sand. Spotty greens. Tee boxes that look like cow pastures. Oh and the price?

Well thats gone from $37.50 to $62. Not exactly the value it was. You might find tee time "sales" but that will only work for so long. Eventually, it catches up.

I don't pretend that a 15" cup is going to increase participation. I feel it was done because it's the easiest attempt at making the game easier for the casual fan.

There are lots of stakeholders here. Course operators. Equipment companies. The PGA. And yes us. Because we'll pay the cost or the courses will disappear. We had it easy with the Tiger Era but cannot rely on a person who transcends the game anymore.[/quote]

Sounds like they are managing themselves out of business. Typical government management. Increasing price while reducing product quality to a point no one will buy it. Excellent job.

County courses are terrible. They always have been. They shouldn't exist.

[jrice19]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1409970037' post='10073337'][quote name='jrice19' timestamp='1409969707' post='10073327']
Not here in AZ.
[/quote]

I understand why you say this because I get how it looks here. But honestly talk to people who've worked in the industry here for ten or more years.

They have absolutely taken a BEATING out here, albeit not as bad as other areas of the country.[/quote]

Yeah, I have heard that and the shortcuts to run their businesses. But, tourism is so big here and with all the crazy weather back east it has improved a lot.

[Soloman1]

Here are some numbers that are good to keep in mind when eulogizing golf:

93% of golf courses that have closed over the decade were public golf courses with < $40 greens fees.

57% of closed courses were 9-hole courses.

26% were executive or par 3 courses.

Only 7% were private courses.

28% of new courses were private.

Over 60% of new courses were associated with a real estate development or a resort.

So, it could be argued that some golf manufacturers were wrong to think there could be growth in lower to low-middle income golfers. Golf is primarily a game for higher income people. The low price, short courses are the ones closing, replaced by high-end courses.

Young people don't have time to play because they're too busy tweeting, facebooking, texting, instagramming and playstationing.

And then there is this:

[attachment=2409127:prevalence-obesity.png]

This is not about being overweight, this is obesity. The percentage of overweight people has remained about the same in the past three decades, but the percentage of clinically severe obese people has shot up.

[attachment=2409145:obesity_large.jpg]

Overweight people can and will play golf. Obese people are not golfers. Over 1/3 of the US population are no longer potential golfers, even if they had the time and money to do it. Don't judge this by looking only within your circle of people or local area, you have to look at it from the country as a whole.

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='xrt99' timestamp='1409974417' post='10073633']
Sure they can, but they can't play against the rest of the world, and for most of the last 6 years they've been on the losing end of a legal battle to get the game back to the levels of play that existed prior to the shutdown of the major sites in the US. The shutdown has absolutely impacted the WSOP in terms of attendance, viewership and participation. Do some research before you start spouting off inaccurate information.
[/quote]

American players can play online poker for money against people all over the world. Bovada poker is just one example.

My original point was that even though participation in the WSOP has declined over the past few years, it is still up from where it was pre poker boom. The poker boom began after Moneymaker won the main event in 2003 and was considered over in 2006. I was asking if the Tiger boom in golf was a similar comparison. Even though participation is down since the Tiger boom, is it really down compared to the pre Tiger boom?

WSOP main event players - [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Series_of_Poker_Main_Event_champions"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Series_of_Poker_Main_Event_champions[/url]

393 in 1999

839 in 2003

2576 in 2004

8773 in 2006

6358 in 2007

6685 in 2011

6352 in 2013


Can we get back to talking about golf now?

[kiteman]

Its too expensive for folks that are trying to get into it

Its too hard for people trying to get into it (esp if they are over the age of 30)

There are a lot of jackasses that play this game and encountering jackasses on the course discourages new players from wanting to play

Seasoned players realize getting into golf is tough, golf is expensive, and there are a lot of jackasses that play golf. All of which are part of the game.

[BillyZ2]

High tech gadgets are a two edged sword. If used properly, they are great tools. If abused, they can own a person's life. As a kid (50 years ago), we kids played outdoor sports and games all the time we could. I couldn't gain a pound if I tried. Now the kids stay inside playing whatever computer game they have, talking/texting on smart phones (smartphone = oxymoron), and never get much exercise at all. A friend told me his kids text each other while sitting just across the room! No wonder kids/adults are obese. I wonder what kinds of social problems are cropping up as well? Imagine going out with the neighborhood friends to the local sandlot for 8 hours without a single smartphone, how dangerous!!!

[Keyser Sфze]

[quote name='pilot25' timestamp='1410004999' post='10074397']
[quote name='HipCheck' timestamp='1398261946' post='9150711']As golf nuts here, most of us "don't care if we lose players or grow the game." Who doesn't want less crowds? More quality, less quantity, right?

Unfortunately that means more expense for us golfers as well. Courses will need to charge more per golfer to make up for lost revenue. My local county courses are a perfect example. 4 county courses which then added another 10 years ago to accommodate the growing golf population.

Last year, participation finally dwindled to the tune of $2MM deficit. They have now farmed out the management to Billy Casper Golf. Fired all county employees a week before the announcement.

Courses opened up this year in sorry shape. Ragged bunker edges. Crappy sand. Spotty greens. Tee boxes that look like cow pastures. Oh and the price?

Well thats gone from $37.50 to $62. Not exactly the value it was. You might find tee time "sales" but that will only work for so long. Eventually, it catches up.

I don't pretend that a 15" cup is going to increase participation. I feel it was done because it's the easiest attempt at making the game easier for the casual fan.

There are lots of stakeholders here. Course operators. Equipment companies. The PGA. And yes us. Because we'll pay the cost or the courses will disappear. We had it easy with the Tiger Era but cannot rely on a person who transcends the game anymore.[/quote]

Sounds like they are managing themselves out of business. Typical government management. Increasing price while reducing product quality to a point no one will buy it. Excellent job.

County courses are terrible. They always have been. They shouldn't exist.
[/quote]

We have several excellent City/County courses here in Sacramento and they use Footgolf to help fund it and I could give exactly zero f*cks that they do that.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Keyser Sфze' timestamp='1410121783' post='10080437']
[quote name='pilot25' timestamp='1410004999' post='10074397']
[quote name='HipCheck' timestamp='1398261946' post='9150711']As golf nuts here, most of us "don't care if we lose players or grow the game." Who doesn't want less crowds? More quality, less quantity, right?

Unfortunately that means more expense for us golfers as well. Courses will need to charge more per golfer to make up for lost revenue. My local county courses are a perfect example. 4 county courses which then added another 10 years ago to accommodate the growing golf population.

Last year, participation finally dwindled to the tune of $2MM deficit. They have now farmed out the management to Billy Casper Golf. Fired all county employees a week before the announcement.

Courses opened up this year in sorry shape. Ragged bunker edges. Crappy sand. Spotty greens. Tee boxes that look like cow pastures. Oh and the price?

Well thats gone from $37.50 to $62. Not exactly the value it was. You might find tee time "sales" but that will only work for so long. Eventually, it catches up.

I don't pretend that a 15" cup is going to increase participation. I feel it was done because it's the easiest attempt at making the game easier for the casual fan.

There are lots of stakeholders here. Course operators. Equipment companies. The PGA. And yes us. Because we'll pay the cost or the courses will disappear. We had it easy with the Tiger Era but cannot rely on a person who transcends the game anymore.[/quote]

Sounds like they are managing themselves out of business. Typical government management. Increasing price while reducing product quality to a point no one will buy it. Excellent job.

County courses are terrible. They always have been. They shouldn't exist.
[/quote]

We have several excellent City/County courses here in Sacramento and they use Footgolf to help fund it and I could give exactly zero f*cks that they do that.
[/quote]
And they charge the same amount as if you were playing a round of golf? And that many people are paying to kick a ball around? Surprising.

[JWells]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408903046' post='9998281']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408891204' post='9997527']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408888940' post='9997393']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408840960' post='9995415']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408801138' post='9992679']
So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?
[/quote]

The WSOP only decreased because the us banned American players from playing online poker.
[/quote]

Inaccurate.
[/quote]

I see facts are unnecessary here.
[/quote]

Like the facts you supplied to back up your claim that the WSOP attendance is down because of on line poker?

U.S. Players can still play online poker for real money.
[/quote]

The WSOP attendance actually went up the year after the bill was passed that put Full tilt and other sites out of business.

On a side note a lot is being done to have that overturned and it's widely believed the casino's had a hand it in and the future of online plowed will be owned by the large Vegas casino's such as Cesar's

[oldtimie]

Golf does not have to be expensive or too time consuming. Golf is unbelievably cheap here in Tucson metro. Rates can run as low as $7-$14 with cart. I played twice this last weekend for $10 after 2pm; saw almost no one on the course at all. Played in two hours. And this is on a really nice course. As far as equipment costs go, I've decided that my Ping I20's irons and Callaway XHot woods are going to be just fine for a long time. When I play with my friend, no practice swings, cart is parked between our shots, he hits his, I hit mine, off we go. I don't look for balls, he doesn't need to. When we get behind a group, we stand on the tee; they usually let us play through.

[Startzel]

[quote name='JWells' timestamp='1410194762' post='10084433']

The WSOP attendance actually went up the year after the bill was passed that put Full tilt and other sites out of business.

On a side note a lot is being done to have that overturned and it's widely believed the casino's had a hand it in and the future of online plowed will be owned by the large Vegas casino's such as Cesar's
[/quote]

The Safe sports Act was signed in 2006. The 2007 WSOP had 2400 fewer players than 2006.

[ButchE]

[quote name='oldtimie' timestamp='1410202521' post='10085061']
Golf does not have to be expensive or too time consuming. Golf is unbelievably cheap here in Tucson metro. Rates can run as low as $7-$14 with cart. I played twice this last weekend for $10 after 2pm; saw almost no one on the course at all. Played in two hours. And this is on a really nice course. As far as equipment costs go, I've decided that my Ping I20's irons and Callaway XHot woods are going to be just fine for a long time. When I play with my friend, no practice swings, cart is parked between our shots, he hits his, I hit mine, off we go. I don't look for balls, he doesn't need to. When we get behind a group, we stand on the tee; they usually let us play through.
[/quote]

yes, but look at the population comparrison...that's the reason the courses are packed,and more expensive(as is most anything East of the Mississippi)..your Pop density per sq mi(57.20) is nearly 1/4th of Virginias !!! also, Arizona is a huge retirement state,..that also makes a difference.

http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/populations/usapopl.htm

[burks21]

I've been timing our last few outings. This is a group of 4. Two players (myself and best friend) max the handicap chart at 36 (we're probably a 40+). Average a 115 on our home 72 par course. The other players are a 15 and 23.

First time out, we were 4.5 hours, but that was mainly finding balls, my first time out, etc. We were the only ones on the course, so no big deal.

Here lately we average 3.5 hours. After 3-5 minutes looking for a ball (their rough is stupid high, we lose balls 5ft into the rough), we just drop, take a stroke, and move on. I played the other day by myself and did it in 2.8 hours. Not bad considering I shot a 111.

This 5+ hours for a round is just insane. We aren't that slow even when shotgunning beers at every par 3...and we suck at golf!

[Keyser Sфze]

Sounds like they are managing themselves out of business. Typical government management. Increasing price while reducing product quality to a point no one will buy it. Excellent job.

 

County courses are terrible. They always have been. They shouldn't exist.

 

We have several excellent City/County courses here in Sacramento and they use Footgolf to help fund it and I could give exactly zero f*cks that they do that.

And they charge the same amount as if you were playing a round of golf? And that many people are paying to kick a ball around? Surprising.

 

Haggin Oaks charges more for golf over footgolf, especially on Weekends. Footies also aren't allowed on the Mackenzie big 18 hole course only on the lesser 18 hole course. Several other city of Sac managed courses do the same. It's California though, so lots of euro transplants and soccer dorks. I still haven't seen golfers stuck between groups of footies though as I'd agree that would be obnoxious, unless they are fast and get to the next tee quicker than golfers (which they very well might since they won't be spending 10 minutes putting on 13 stimp greens). And I doubt they even have to wear collared shirts let alone face any type of cargo jort ban!

http://www.hagginoak...t-arcade-creek/

 

FootGolf Rates – 7 Days a Week

 

$16 – 18 Holes Walking Rate

$24 – 18 Holes with Golf Cart (Riding Rate)

$8 – 18 Holes Junior Walking Rate

 

Golf

[mr_divots]

Gotcha. Yeah, some courses with only 18 holes doing it up here, and mixing golfers and footgolfers together out on the course.

I don't like soccer, but understand the worldwide appeal of only needing a ball. Using a golf course to kick a ball is just wrong to me on so many levels.
Its like a parody of what soccer was never meant to be, and golf as well.

For all the "cargo shorts deserve death" posts and topics I read on this site, color me surprised by the support of "footgolf." Fickle, fickle, crowd. LOL!

[gwlee7]

Can you play footgolf wearing cargo shorts?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1409970037' post='10073337']
[quote name='jrice19' timestamp='1409969707' post='10073327']
Not here in AZ.
[/quote]

I understand why you say this because I get how it looks here. But honestly talk to people who've worked in the industry here for ten or more years.

They have absolutely taken a BEATING out here, albeit not as bad as other areas of the country.
[/quote]

You are correct. Darn near all those in the golf business will say that. Hell, everyone in my industry and other industries say that as well, even if margins are only slightly off. Seems, even if business looks to be doing OK, but the prevailing wind suggests otherwise, there's a penchant to say we're taking a beating. Nobody wants to hear someone else is doing well, if they are having problems.

[Lightning Down Under]

Need to turn them all into trailer parks or cemeteries