What is 'Vertical Swing Plane'?

[eightiron]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424903426' post='11028485']
But what about Trackman's notes? A high number is a steep swing plane and a low number is a flat swing plane. Isn't the guy on the left on a more steep swing plane?
[/quote]

Measure from about hip high on the downswing, correct? Sergio Flat but steepens dramatically

[eightiron]

Most got it right, earlier explanation kinda gave it away

 

 

Tyler has much higher hands but flatter VSP. The plane his sweetspot travels on is flatter than his shaft plane and hands. He has a shallower AOA and flatter VSP

 

 

VJ's sweetspot travels on a plan much steeper than his shaft plane and hands. Steeper AOA and VSP.

 

Path in both these swings would have been very similar and both balls had the same flight on them curve wise.

 

Didn't Trackman Maestro do a video on this explaining VSP.? His explanation was way different to the way you present it Dan . Are you going to patent this explanation so he can't plagiarise it on the Twitter?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1424915795' post='11029807']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424909407' post='11029071']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1424907390' post='11028879']
So does club head kick out more for guy on left relative to his hands? We are talking later downswing correct? So his hands didn't work as out as Vj early downswing therefore club head had more room to travel out relative to hands in order to reach the ball?
[/quote]

No opposite. Clubhead is below and more under/behind his hands. VJ's clubhead kicks out WAY more relative to hands. And is why his VSP and AOA is steeper.

Guy on left (Tyler) has a lot more shaft lean and clubhead speed than VJ.
[/quote]

Ok. VJ's definately looked like his club head was kicking out more. Just trying to picture how he could be flatter, with club head working out more, and have a steep VSP. We are talking about bottom of swing correct?
[/quote]

Look at the sequence I posted. The path of the sweetspot is VSP. The path of Tyler's sweetspot is flatter even though his swing plane is more upright. Opposite for VJ. Tyler's sweetspot path is below his hand path/shaft plane. VJ's sweetspot path is above his hand path/shaft plane resulting in steep AOA and VSP.


Again VSP Is not the shaft plane/swing plane. It's all about path of the sweetspot. Because of how PA3 works it's generally inversely related (VSP and AOA vs shaft plane) for most golfers. More upright swing planes produce shallower AOAs.

Higher hands creates a shallower AOA. This is the entire reasoning for how I teach the shortgame.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1424916134' post='11029861']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424903426' post='11028485']
But what about Trackman's notes? A high number is a steep swing plane and a low number is a flat swing plane. Isn't the guy on the left on a more steep swing plane?
[/quote]

Measure from about hip high on the downswing, correct? Sergio Flat but steepens dramatically
[/quote]

I was playing around and being sarcastic. Their own literature is at best confusing and in reality plain wrong.

[pinhigh27]

meanwhile somewhere out there is a kid trying to hit shots off bare dirt with his hands at his knees and some old fart telling him it looks good

[iteachgolf]

Most got it right, earlier explanation kinda gave it away

 

 

Tyler has much higher hands but flatter VSP. The plane his sweetspot travels on is flatter than his shaft plane and hands. He has a shallower AOA and flatter VSP

 

 

VJ's sweetspot travels on a plan much steeper than his shaft plane and hands. Steeper AOA and VSP.

 

Path in both these swings would have been very similar and both balls had the same flight on them curve wise.

 

Didn't Trackman Maestro do a video on this explaining VSP.? His explanation was way different to the way you present it Dan . Are you going to patent this explanation so he can't plagiarise it on the Twitter?

 

He did an old video and got it wrong. Probably little eager to make a video and create a following before totally understanding all the details. He certainly know the correct definition and how it works now.

 

 

It's often when we make mistakes we learn the most as long as we have the guts to admit and see our own faults so we can move forward, learn and improve. I'm sure if Joe remade the video it'd be very different know. I'm sure he's learned a lot in last 3 years

[TB07]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424916413' post='11029891']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1424915795' post='11029807']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424909407' post='11029071']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1424907390' post='11028879']
So does club head kick out more for guy on left relative to his hands? We are talking later downswing correct? So his hands didn't work as out as Vj early downswing therefore club head had more room to travel out relative to hands in order to reach the ball?
[/quote]

No opposite. Clubhead is below and more under/behind his hands. VJ's clubhead kicks out WAY more relative to hands. And is why his VSP and AOA is steeper.

Guy on left (Tyler) has a lot more shaft lean and clubhead speed than VJ.
[/quote]

Ok. VJ's definately looked like his club head was kicking out more. Just trying to picture how he could be flatter, with club head working out more, and have a steep VSP. We are talking about bottom of swing correct?
[/quote]

Look at the sequence I posted. The path of the sweetspot is VSP. The path of Tyler's sweetspot is flatter even though his swing plane is more upright. Opposite for VJ. Tyler's sweetspot path is below his hand path/shaft plane. VJ's sweetspot path is above his hand path/shaft plane resulting in steep AOA and VSP.


Again VSP Is not the shaft plane/swing plane. It's all about path of the sweetspot. Because of how PA3 works it's generally inversely related (VSP and AOA vs shaft plane) for most golfers. More upright swing planes produce shallower AOAs.

Higher hands creates a shallower AOA. This is the entire reasoning for how I teach the shortgame.
[/quote]

I got it now. I knew more upright swing produce's shallower AoA and vica versa. You did article on that a while back. Don't remember everything exactly but definately remeber you talking about upright/flat planes and steep/shallow AoA.

[iteachgolf]

The sequence shows exactly why. Tyler is almost 10* flatter than VJ as far as actual sweetspot path to the ball. A number of guys have seen Tyler hit balls. Pretty impressive for a guy whose been taking golf seriously for only the last 3 years (hadn't played since high school before 3 years ago).

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1424912024' post='11029379']
Sounds like a 3D way to measure the 3rd ACC.
[/quote]

Exactly what I thought it was as well.

[Ajlepisto]

So what's weird to me is...

How can someone who has high hands have more forward shaft lean than when they're low and going around left more? Or is the body moving to accommodate more shaft lean?

I kinda discovered a while ago that I can hit a draw by swinging left and just controlling the dynamic lie more than focusing on face rotation. Has been amazing to me.

[eightiron]

Most got it right, earlier explanation kinda gave it away

 

 

Tyler has much higher hands but flatter VSP. The plane his sweetspot travels on is flatter than his shaft plane and hands. He has a shallower AOA and flatter VSP

 

 

VJ's sweetspot travels on a plan much steeper than his shaft plane and hands. Steeper AOA and VSP.

 

Path in both these swings would have been very similar and both balls had the same flight on them curve wise.

 

Didn't Trackman Maestro do a video on this explaining VSP.? His explanation was way different to the way you present it Dan . Are you going to patent this explanation so he can't plagiarise it on the Twitter?

 

He did an old video and got it wrong. Probably little eager to make a video and create a following before totally understanding all the details. He certainly know the correct definition and how it works now.

 

 

It's often when we make mistakes we learn the most as long as we have the guts to admit and see our own faults so we can move forward, learn and improve. I'm sure if Joe remade the video it'd be very different know. I'm sure he's learned a lot in last 3 years

 

So how would you teach tour players not knowing what the VSP numbers really mean?

[chrisgilly09]

[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1424919969' post='11030305']
So what's weird to me is...

How can someone who has high hands have more forward shaft lean than when they're low and going around left more? Or is the body moving to accommodate more shaft lean?

I kinda discovered a while ago that I can hit a draw by swinging left and just controlling the dynamic lie more than focusing on face rotation. Has been amazing to me.
[/quote]

When your hands are low you have to un-bend the right wrist for the club to reach the ball; provided you're not moving your upper body and head way forward. Hence less shaft lean in normal swings

[Ajlepisto]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1424920676' post='11030365']
[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1424919969' post='11030305']
So what's weird to me is...

How can someone who has high hands have more forward shaft lean than when they're low and going around left more? Or is the body moving to accommodate more shaft lean?

I kinda discovered a while ago that I can hit a draw by swinging left and just controlling the dynamic lie more than focusing on face rotation. Has been amazing to me.
[/quote]

When your hands are low you have to un-bend the right wrist for the club to reach the ball; provided you're not moving your upper body and head way forward. Hence less shaft lean in normal swings
[/quote]

How?

If my hands are going around me more left...I have to keep the shaft short in order to hit the ball. If I unbend my right wrist and extend the shaft (make it longer) how do I hit the ball like that? When I do it in a mirror I get the club to the ground sooner.

[ALIF]

This is a great thread! Its been very informative.

[chrisgilly09]

If I'm getting this right, someone who has low hands by say, p6, shouldn't be trying to move the hands left that much into impact; that's where you see guys moving their head and upper body forward and staying in flexion (old man move). That would hold onto the wrist bend too long and you'd be in danger of hitting wipe slices. Your example requires more body rotation to make it work when you unbend the wrist, while higher hands and shaft lean doesn't need as much

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1424919969' post='11030305']
So what's weird to me is...

How can someone who has high hands have more forward shaft lean than when they're low and going around left more? Or is the body moving to accommodate more shaft lean?

I kinda discovered a while ago that I can hit a draw by swinging left and just controlling the dynamic lie more than focusing on face rotation. Has been amazing to me.
[/quote]

Shaft lean is right wrist bend and not left wrist c0ck. Maximum right wrist bend occurs when wrist aren't cocked. Most guys with a lot of shaft lean have high hands because of the amount of right wrist bend required.

Higher hands also gets face square with less left arm rotation and path is straighter into the ball which affects shaft lean. Handle height is all about PA3. Maximum shaft lean will occur on the TSP like Zach Johnson, Dustin Johnson and David Toms. It allows the most range of motion to create the most lean. Also allows more shoulder tilt required to get the most lean


Wrist c0ck isn't shaft lean

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1424927086' post='11030889']
If I'm getting this right, someone who has low hands by say, p6, shouldn't be trying to move the hands left that much into impact; that's where you see guys moving their head and upper body forward and staying in flexion (old man move). That would hold onto the wrist bend too long and you'd be in danger of hitting wipe slices. Your example requires more body rotation to make it work when you unbend the wrist, while higher hands and shaft lean doesn't need as much
[/quote]

you're like waite jr

[bph7]

Awesome thread, this is why this is the best instruction board. This info cannot be gotten anywhere else.

[ej002]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1424963174' post='11032195']
Awesome thread, this is why this is the best instruction board. This info cannot be gotten anywhere else.
[/quote]

Well, it can, but only if you are part of the Knights Templar of golf.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1424963957' post='11032245']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1424963174' post='11032195']
Awesome thread, this is why this is the best instruction board. This info cannot be gotten anywhere else.
[/quote]

Well, it can, but only if you are part of the Knights Templar of golf.
[/quote]
AKA Facebook Golf Teaching Professionals

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424965530' post='11032371']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1424963957' post='11032245']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1424963174' post='11032195']
Awesome thread, this is why this is the best instruction board. This info cannot be gotten anywhere else.
[/quote]

Well, it can, but only if you are part of the Knights Templar of golf.
[/quote]
AKA Facebook Golf Teaching Professionals
[/quote]

lol thought he meant MORAD

[dairic]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424952435' post='11031475']
[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1424919969' post='11030305']
So what's weird to me is...

How can someone who has high hands have more forward shaft lean than when they're low and going around left more? Or is the body moving to accommodate more shaft lean?

I kinda discovered a while ago that I can hit a draw by swinging left and just controlling the dynamic lie more than focusing on face rotation. Has been amazing to me.
[/quote]

Shaft lean is right wrist bend and not left wrist c0ck. Maximum right wrist bend occurs when wrist aren't cocked. Most guys with a lot of shaft lean have high hands because of the amount of right wrist bend required.

Higher hands also gets face square with less left arm rotation and path is straighter into the ball which affects shaft lean. Handle height is all about PA3. Maximum shaft lean will occur on the TSP like Zach Johnson, Dustin Johnson and David Toms. It allows the most range of motion to create the most lean. Also allows more shoulder tilt required to get the most lean


Wrist c0ck isn't shaft lean
[/quote]

Dan, you really need to write a book. Its scary to think how much good info would be in there. If you hury you could still beat Mac and Geoff to the printing press.

[dairic]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424965925' post='11032423']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424965530' post='11032371']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1424963957' post='11032245']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1424963174' post='11032195']
Awesome thread, this is why this is the best instruction board. This info cannot be gotten anywhere else.
[/quote]

Well, it can, but only if you are part of the Knights Templar of golf.
[/quote]
AKA Facebook Golf Teaching Professionals
[/quote]

lol thought he meant MORAD
[/quote]

Im certain he's referring to golfwiseguys. right?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1424965992' post='11032427']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424952435' post='11031475']
[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1424919969' post='11030305']
So what's weird to me is...

How can someone who has high hands have more forward shaft lean than when they're low and going around left more? Or is the body moving to accommodate more shaft lean?

I kinda discovered a while ago that I can hit a draw by swinging left and just controlling the dynamic lie more than focusing on face rotation. Has been amazing to me.
[/quote]

Shaft lean is right wrist bend and not left wrist c0ck. Maximum right wrist bend occurs when wrist aren't cocked. Most guys with a lot of shaft lean have high hands because of the amount of right wrist bend required.

Higher hands also gets face square with less left arm rotation and path is straighter into the ball which affects shaft lean. Handle height is all about PA3. Maximum shaft lean will occur on the TSP like Zach Johnson, Dustin Johnson and David Toms. It allows the most range of motion to create the most lean. Also allows more shoulder tilt required to get the most lean


Wrist c0ck isn't shaft lean
[/quote]

Dan, you really need to write a book. Its scary to think how much good info would be in there. If you hury you could still beat Mac and Geoff to the printing press.
[/quote]

no hurrying needed

[ej002]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424965925' post='11032423']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424965530' post='11032371']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1424963957' post='11032245']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1424963174' post='11032195']
Awesome thread, this is why this is the best instruction board. This info cannot be gotten anywhere else.
[/quote]

Well, it can, but only if you are part of the Knights Templar of golf.
[/quote]
AKA Facebook Golf Teaching Professionals
[/quote]

lol thought he meant MORAD
[/quote]

That too but I was thinking of flatulence actually

[PutterKilledTheDream]

So in many ways my takeaway from this thread is that VSP or incorrectly called 'swing plane' is pretty much irrelevant. If the real plane is shallow(er) and the VSP/AoA steep(er), than the only practical use for the term is understanding how it affects club path when you strike down.

Is it an 'either or' only situation though? Does everybody who has steeper VSP and attack look shallower at impact and vice versa? These have to be at each end of the spectrum I would think... but have never really thought about it before so this has been insightful. VSP is one of those 'measurements' that never seemed to matter much.

[ej002]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424967459' post='11032609']
So in many ways my takeaway from this thread is that VSP or incorrectly called 'swing plane' is pretty much irrelevant. If the real plane is shallow(er) and the VSP/AoA steep(er), than the only practical use for the term is understanding how it affects club path when you strike down.

Is it an 'either or' only situation though? Does everybody who has steeper VSP and attack look shallower at impact and vice versa? These have to be at each end of the spectrum I would think... but have never really thought about it before so this has been insightful. VSP is one of those 'measurements' that never seemed to matter much.
[/quote]

Seems to me shaft plane doesn't matter much, but VSP is telling you alot about the dynamics of what is going on.

Edited for truth and accuracy: I don't have a trackman or flighscope, so I can only go on what I am reading here.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424967459' post='11032609']
So in many ways my takeaway from this thread is that VSP or incorrectly called 'swing plane' is pretty much irrelevant. If the real plane is shallow(er) and the VSP/AoA steep(er), than the only practical use for the term is understanding how it affects club path when you strike down.

Is it an 'either or' only situation though? Does everybody who has steeper VSP and attack look shallower at impact and vice versa? These have to be at each end of the spectrum I would think... but have never really thought about it before so this has been insightful. VSP is one of those 'measurements' that never seemed to matter much.
[/quote]

are you trolling now? your buddy would be an exception to your question

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424973727' post='11033329']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424967459' post='11032609']
So in many ways my takeaway from this thread is that VSP or incorrectly called 'swing plane' is pretty much irrelevant. If the real plane is shallow(er) and the VSP/AoA steep(er), than the only practical use for the term is understanding how it affects club path when you strike down.

Is it an 'either or' only situation though? Does everybody who has steeper VSP and attack look shallower at impact and vice versa? These have to be at each end of the spectrum I would think... but have never really thought about it before so this has been insightful. VSP is one of those 'measurements' that never seemed to matter much.
[/quote]

are you trolling now? your buddy would be an exception to your question
[/quote]
Trolling Pin? It's a legitimate question. Its been phrased like it's only an either or. Either you've got an upright plane with shallow VSP or shallow plane with a steep VSP. There has to be some middle ground where the 2 get closer together and it can't only be 'hacks'. I've asked the question a couple times now.
Don't piss off daddy son.

[pinhigh27]

it's not an either or, but I'd say guys like your buddy are anomalies.