What is 'Vertical Swing Plane'?

[iteachgolf]

Yep. Even Mr Trackman Maestro got it wrong in his VSP video. It's always been sweetspot path but guys don't get how sweetspot path can be flat with an upright swing and steep with a flat swing. I think their attempt at simplifying it only confused more guys.

A small percentage of guys who even own them actually understand what they numbers mean let alone how to use them effectively. All this technology is great but so many who use it do so ineffectively and then you get animosity towards the technology. It's a bunch of inanimate objects. A fool with a tool is still a fool and toys don't make someone a good teacher. But it so doesn't mean soneone is a bad one if they have them

[pinhigh27]

you say can be flat with an upright swing, when is it ever steep with an upright swing, seems like most of the guys who are " steep" end up shallowing it one way or another and have "shallow" appearing numbers on radar

[pinhigh27]

I don't really get how TM got this wrong. There is a reason upright swings are much more common on tour than flat ones.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424906091' post='11028737']
you say can be flat with an upright swing, when is it ever steep with an upright swing, seems like most of the guys who are " steep" end up shallowing it one way or another and have "shallow" appearing numbers on radar
[/quote]

You can be upright and steep. You just described most hacks. They combine VJ's move through the ball with Tyler's upright swing plane.

[MonteScheinblum]

OTT EE

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424906263' post='11028757']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424906091' post='11028737']
you say can be flat with an upright swing, when is it ever steep with an upright swing, seems like most of the guys who are " steep" end up shallowing it one way or another and have "shallow" appearing numbers on radar
[/quote]

You can be upright and steep. You just described most hacks. They combine VJ's move through the ball with Tyler's upright swing plane.
[/quote]

yeah I guess I meant in good players

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1424906288' post='11028761']
OTT EE
[/quote]

EE would be shallower on radar though because they're shallowing the club

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424906091' post='11028737']
you say can be flat with an upright swing, when is it ever steep with an upright swing, seems like most of the guys who are " steep" end up shallowing it one way or another and have "shallow" appearing numbers on radar
[/quote]
Not true. I've seen 54 degree VSP w/ -5 AoA. You can still be 'steep' and uncock earlier while still hitting down. My good bud is a perfect example.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424906574' post='11028795']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424906091' post='11028737']
you say can be flat with an upright swing, when is it ever steep with an upright swing, seems like most of the guys who are " steep" end up shallowing it one way or another and have "shallow" appearing numbers on radar
[/quote]
Not true. I've seen 54 degree VSP w/ -5 AoA. You can still be 'steep' and uncock earlier while still hitting down. My good bud is a perfect example.
[/quote]

with a driver? so is he one of those dudes that is hopeless with a wedge

[PutterKilledTheDream]

No he's a 1

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424906525' post='11028789']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424906263' post='11028757']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1424906091' post='11028737']
you say can be flat with an upright swing, when is it ever steep with an upright swing, seems like most of the guys who are " steep" end up shallowing it one way or another and have "shallow" appearing numbers on radar
[/quote]

You can be upright and steep. You just described most hacks. They combine VJ's move through the ball with Tyler's upright swing plane.
[/quote]

yeah I guess I meant in good players

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1424906288' post='11028761']
OTT EE
[/quote]

EE would be shallower on radar though because they're shallowing the club
[/quote]

The key word is shallower, not shallow.

[northgolf]

Okay, so what is desirable for VSP and how is it accomplished?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1424907010' post='11028855']
Okay, so what is desirable for VSP and how is it accomplished?
[/quote]

There isn't one. It's about compatible to your pattern. Can be flat or steep as long as other parts match

[TB07]

So does club head kick out more for guy on left relative to his hands? We are talking later downswing correct? So his hands didn't work as out as Vj early downswing therefore club head had more room to travel out relative to hands in order to reach the ball?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424907114' post='11028861']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1424907010' post='11028855']
Okay, so what is desirable for VSP and how is it accomplished?
[/quote]

There isn't one. It's about compatible to your pattern. Can be flat or steep as long as other parts match
[/quote]

This is where you all need to listen. This is something no one seems to want to tell you. It's like AoA, swing path, etc.

There is an individual ideal, not universal.

[TB07]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1424907410' post='11028883']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424907114' post='11028861']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1424907010' post='11028855']
Okay, so what is desirable for VSP and how is it accomplished?
[/quote]

There isn't one. It's about compatible to your pattern. Can be flat or steep as long as other parts match
[/quote]

This is where you all need to listen. This is something no one seems to want to tell you. It's like AoA, swing path, etc.

There is an individual ideal, not universal.
[/quote]

Got to know those so everyone doesn't spend all their time searching for pieces that MIGHT work.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424905522' post='11028697']
Hence the reasoning behind starting this thread. Seems misleading or confusing at least that TM-FS use the language they do to describe VSP as flat vs steep swing planes. TM even went as far as to rename VSP to 'swing plane'. Seems to be a big contradiction to what is traditionally considered to be the plane (shaft).
[/quote]

The sweet spot travels on a plane. The only issue is that it isn't what is traditionally thought of as swing plane. Forget that traditional idea and what DC is saying isn't that complicated. In fact it makes quite a bit of sense about how it relates to AoA along with face closure rates.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1424907855' post='11028929']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424905522' post='11028697']
Hence the reasoning behind starting this thread. Seems misleading or confusing at least that TM-FS use the language they do to describe VSP as flat vs steep swing planes. TM even went as far as to rename VSP to 'swing plane'. Seems to be a big contradiction to what is traditionally considered to be the plane (shaft).
[/quote]

The sweet spot travels on a plane. The only issue is that it isn't what is traditionally thought of as swing plane. Forget that traditional idea and what DC is saying isn't that complicated. In fact it makes quite a bit of sense about how it relates to AoA along with face closure rates.
[/quote]

MM, would you agree it's a transition form a 2D approach to a 3D approach?

i.e. Underatnd ing where the club is in space, versus just drawing a line on a screen.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1424908165' post='11028965']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1424907855' post='11028929']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424905522' post='11028697']
Hence the reasoning behind starting this thread. Seems misleading or confusing at least that TM-FS use the language they do to describe VSP as flat vs steep swing planes. TM even went as far as to rename VSP to 'swing plane'. Seems to be a big contradiction to what is traditionally considered to be the plane (shaft).
[/quote]

The sweet spot travels on a plane. The only issue is that it isn't what is traditionally thought of as swing plane. Forget that traditional idea and what DC is saying isn't that complicated. In fact it makes quite a bit of sense about how it relates to AoA along with face closure rates.
[/quote]

MM, would you agree it's a transition form a 2D approach to a 3D approach?

i.e. Underatnd ing where the club is in space, versus just drawing a line on a screen.
[/quote]

4D

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1424907390' post='11028879']
So does club head kick out more for guy on left relative to his hands? We are talking later downswing correct? So his hands didn't work as out as Vj early downswing therefore club head had more room to travel out relative to hands in order to reach the ball?
[/quote]

No opposite. Clubhead is below and more under/behind his hands. VJ's clubhead kicks out WAY more relative to hands. And is why his VSP and AOA is steeper.

Guy on left (Tyler) has a lot more shaft lean and clubhead speed than VJ.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1424907855' post='11028929']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1424905522' post='11028697']
Hence the reasoning behind starting this thread. Seems misleading or confusing at least that TM-FS use the language they do to describe VSP as flat vs steep swing planes. TM even went as far as to rename VSP to 'swing plane'. Seems to be a big contradiction to what is traditionally considered to be the plane (shaft).
[/quote]

The sweet spot travels on a plane. The only issue is that it isn't what is traditionally thought of as swing plane. Forget that traditional idea and what DC is saying isn't that complicated. In fact it makes quite a bit of sense about how it relates to AoA along with face closure rates.
[/quote]
Mike I'm aware of that. But VSP isn't measuring the plane it's measuring an angle. Let me phrase the question differently: can the sweet spot plane mirror the shaft plane or do they have have to be working opposite?

[ej002]

Sounds like a 3D way to measure the 3rd ACC.

[ej002]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424905988' post='11028729']
Yep. Even Mr Trackman Maestro got it wrong in his VSP video. It's always been sweetspot path but guys don't get how sweetspot path can be flat with an [b]upright swing and steep with a flat swing[/b]. I think their attempt at simplifying it only confused more guys.

A small percentage of guys who even own them actually understand what they numbers mean let alone how to use them effectively. All this technology is great but so many who use it do so ineffectively and then you get animosity towards the technology. It's a bunch of inanimate objects. A fool with a tool is still a fool and toys don't make someone a good teacher. But it so doesn't mean soneone is a bad one if they have them
[/quote]

when you say "upright / flat swing" you mean shaft plane?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1424912285' post='11029407']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424905988' post='11028729']
Yep. Even Mr Trackman Maestro got it wrong in his VSP video. It's always been sweetspot path but guys don't get how sweetspot path can be flat with an [b]upright swing and steep with a flat swing[/b]. I think their attempt at simplifying it only confused more guys.

A small percentage of guys who even own them actually understand what they numbers mean let alone how to use them effectively. All this technology is great but so many who use it do so ineffectively and then you get animosity towards the technology. It's a bunch of inanimate objects. A fool with a tool is still a fool and toys don't make someone a good teacher. But it so doesn't mean soneone is a bad one if they have them
[/quote]

when you say "upright / flat swing" you mean shaft plane?
[/quote]

Yes. I never mix upright and steep or flat and shallow. Plane is flat or upright. AOA and sweetspot path is steep or shallow.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

But according to the radar companies Segio would have a very steep swing plane.

[iteachgolf]

I've talked about this for a long time and tried to explain it a ton of times in multiple threads. One dedicated to handle height even. And everyone doesn't wanna listen and thinks Sergio is shallow and flatter planes mean you'll be shallower at impact AOA wise. When it's the opposite the overwhelming majority of the time.

They don't get how Tom Watson and David Toms can be super shallow while Sergio and the guys on very low planes are steep AOA wise

[pinhigh27]

screw me I can recall the mayonnaise VSP video in my head

[thekru]

So how would you fix someone who is too flat and too shallow vs. someone who is too up right and steep?

So Sergio, who flattens the shaft so hard in transition, if he was also shallow, would hit 6 inches behind it correct? Someone who is upright and steep, if they didn't ee and dump, would whiff?

I guess what I'm asking is how or where would you start with the two extremes?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1424914564' post='11029665']
So how would you fix someone who is too flat and too shallow vs. someone who is too up right and steep?

So Sergio, who flattens the shaft so hard in transition, if he was also shallow, would hit 6 inches behind it correct? Someone who is upright and steep, if they didn't ee and dump, would whiff?

I guess what I'm asking is how or where would you start with the two extremes?
[/quote]

Moving towards the middle. Or if the player is already good, making sure all the components match what they are currently doing and understanding how their pattern works for them and pieces they should avoid at all cost so they don't mess themselves up and can self correct mid tournament. How I'd approach it depends greatly on the skill and desire of the student.

[TB07]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1424909407' post='11029071']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1424907390' post='11028879']
So does club head kick out more for guy on left relative to his hands? We are talking later downswing correct? So his hands didn't work as out as Vj early downswing therefore club head had more room to travel out relative to hands in order to reach the ball?
[/quote]

No opposite. Clubhead is below and more under/behind his hands. VJ's clubhead kicks out WAY more relative to hands. And is why his VSP and AOA is steeper.

Guy on left (Tyler) has a lot more shaft lean and clubhead speed than VJ.
[/quote]

Ok. VJ's definately looked like his club head was kicking out more. Just trying to picture how he could be flatter, with club head working out more, and have a steep VSP. We are talking about bottom of swing correct?

[eightiron]

Which one do you think has the flatter VSP?

And which one has the flatter lie angle?

 

 

On the left would have a lower VSP and Vijay would have flatter lie angles