New WRX Article: What really determines feel in an iron?

[TimV]

Anyone else read this and think the writer was incredibly full of it?

[TaylorJamison]

Pretty much, Especially the last paragraph.

[VivaTerlingua]

I'm not sure what I think

[u]Head scratchers:[/u] 1) Frequency chart does not look the same to me. I think "similar" might be a better term. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but the cast chart appears "noisier" to me. I think if they were the same, they'd look the same
2) Article written by cast manufacturer
3) Author is smarter than me on this.
4) 14 of 15 staff members could not tell the difference

[u]Where I think he nailed it[/u]: "[i][size=4]These days in our player tests we will ask for feedback on how a club feels with regard to the weight and balance as they pick it up, how it feels during the swing, and also how it feels and sounds at impact. They can all be quite different.[/size][/i]
[i][size=4]What can be difficult for a club manufacturer is the range of sensations people want to feel. Some players want a lot of feedback to let them know they didn’t catch a shot in the middle of the face. Some don’t. Some like a powerful sound, others like something a bit more muted."[/size][/i]
[size=4][u]Conspiracy theory:[/u] Manchurian candidate from rival forum. If this article is true/to be believed, approximately 50% of forum topics immediately rendered pointless. [/size]
[size=4][u]My take-away[/u]: Continue to play what I'm playing.[/size]

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='dtrayler' timestamp='1435770062' post='11869852']
... 4) 14 of 15 staff members could not tell the difference
[/quote]

My question, on the 'forged' club in the comparison -- was this an old school traditional forging or one of the new, cost efficient, cast-then-pounded forgings? Big difference between the two. Most of the new forgings aren't really forgings at all.

[birly-shirly]

No. I don't think the author is full of it.

Based on contributions I've seen him make in other circumstances, I'd say he's an uncommonly thoughtful and interesting industry expert who wears his Ping affiliation quite lightly.

So, I hope he doesn't get flamed for an article which, if anything, sounded pretty much like conventional wisdom. There was some interesting detail, but the headline messages I've heard before, from manufacturers with commercial interests on both sides of the cast/forged divide.

I have no reason to doubt his main conclusions. But I agree with dtraylor that it's not going to change what I'm playing, which is primarily forged blades.

Having said that, only in the strictly literal sense is it false that Ping's "cannot be bent for lie angle". Ping can bend them (apparently by beating them with a big mallet), but they're damned hard work in a conventional bending machine compared to traditional forged blades, and I'm pretty sure that the difference would show up on a graph.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1435788044' post='11871992']
No. I don't think the author is full of it.

Based on contributions I've seen him make in other circumstances, I'd say he's an uncommonly thoughtful and interesting industry expert who wears his Ping affiliation quite lightly.

So, I hope he doesn't get flamed for an article which, if anything, sounded pretty much like conventional wisdom. There was some interesting detail, but the headline messages I've heard before, from manufacturers with commercial interests on both sides of the cast/forged divide.

I have no reason to doubt his main conclusions. But I agree with dtraylor that it's not going to change what I'm playing, which is primarily forged blades.

Having said that, only in the strictly literal sense is it false that Ping's "cannot be bent for lie angle". Ping can bend them (apparently by beating them with a big mallet), but they're damned hard work in a conventional bending machine compared to traditional forged blades, and I'm pretty sure that the difference would show up on a graph.
[/quote]You can bend Ping irons in a conventional loft and lie machine if you heat them first and take your time. Let them cool and recheck of course for safety's sake you need to re epoxy. I have Conrad's (from the confessions forum on WRX) S-58s in my shop now and someone had really bent both the lofts and lies on them. He did buy them sight unseen from flea bay though. I am in the process of re engineering them to his specs from the ground up

[BIG STU]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1435772210' post='11870124']
[quote name='dtrayler' timestamp='1435770062' post='11869852']
... 4) 14 of 15 staff members could not tell the difference
[/quote]

My question, on the 'forged' club in the comparison -- was this an old school traditional forging or one of the new, cost efficient, cast-then-pounded forgings? Big difference between the two. Most of the new forgings aren't really forgings at all.
[/quote]Yep you are correct they are not true forgings as us old timers know them. Most of the 'true" forgings now come from the JDMs

[WalleyeDave]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1435789484' post='11872126']
[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1435788044' post='11871992']
No. I don't think the author is full of it.

Based on contributions I've seen him make in other circumstances, I'd say he's an uncommonly thoughtful and interesting industry expert who wears his Ping affiliation quite lightly.

So, I hope he doesn't get flamed for an article which, if anything, sounded pretty much like conventional wisdom. There was some interesting detail, but the headline messages I've heard before, from manufacturers with commercial interests on both sides of the cast/forged divide.

I have no reason to doubt his main conclusions. But I agree with dtraylor that it's not going to change what I'm playing, which is primarily forged blades.

Having said that, only in the strictly literal sense is it false that Ping's "cannot be bent for lie angle". Ping can bend them (apparently by beating them with a big mallet), but they're damned hard work in a conventional bending machine compared to traditional forged blades, and I'm pretty sure that the difference would show up on a graph.
[/quote]You can bend Ping irons in a conventional loft and lie machine if you heat them first and take your time. Let them cool and recheck of course for safety's sake you need to re epoxy. I have Conrad's (from the confessions forum on WRX) S-58s in my shop now and someone had really bent both the lofts and lies on them. He did buy them sight unseen from flea bay though. I am in the process of re engineering them to his specs from the ground up
[/quote]Ping tour van sure makes it look easy.

[Sean2]

I have played both cast and forged. A well struck shot with both feels great.

[Pigems]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1435789652' post='11872138']
[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1435772210' post='11870124']
[quote name='dtrayler' timestamp='1435770062' post='11869852']
... 4) 14 of 15 staff members could not tell the difference
[/quote]

My question, on the 'forged' club in the comparison -- was this an old school traditional forging or one of the new, cost efficient, cast-then-pounded forgings? Big difference between the two. Most of the new forgings aren't really forgings at all.
[/quote]Yep you are correct they are not true forgings as us old timers know them. Most of the 'true" forgings now come from the JDMs
[/quote]

I did not know that.

[Fade to Black]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1435793743' post='11872518']
I have played both cast and forged. A well struck shot with both feels great.
[/quote]
Couldn't tell the difference myself. Played forged and cast and I'd not bet a dime I could pick the forged out.

[stevemcgee99]

I'm sure placebo has a lot to do with it. Therefore the manufacturers will continue to spend money to try to convince us their cheaper clubs are worth it.

On an economic model that concludes full utilization of fixed assets to crank out maximum unit numbers.

[scomac2002]

I'm sure that I couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged. My experience with forged clubs is limited to a short experiment with a set of Adams Pro Golds. I didn't find them any more pleasing or harsh than a comparable cast club.

What is surprising to me is that the nicest feeling set of irons I have hit are my old Precision II Dictators cast in BeCu. Conversely, the harshest irons I have hit were a set of cast SGI Mizuno MX-100's. I had to quit them after a year and a half as they shredded my elbows. Maybe it has more to do with materials and design than it does with the manufacturing processes.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1435766621' post='11869430']
Anyone else read this and think the writer was incredibly full of it?

[/quote]

Tiger Woods could have a press conference tomorrow and announce the sky is blue and he's obsessed with women ... 1000 WRX'ers would question his credibility and conclusions.

There is nothing inherently different between the "feel" of forged vs cast golf clubs and anyone who says there is, should step away from the Kool Aid.

[TimV]

Perhaps anyone who pants after whatever the manufacturers tell them this year could use a break from the Kool Aid too.
I don't mind being disagreed with but would appreciate that disagreement being respectful.
Although I came to golf "late" (I was almost 20 years old) I have been playing since 1979. During that over 35 years of play and having hit both I can feel difference. Whether you believe that or not makes no difference to me. As suggested earlier I am willing to concede that a lot of the difference may have to do with what forged irons were like 35 years ago and more and what they are like today.

[oldschoolrocker]

My own opinion. First, we must define the term that we are using for comparison. Feel: perceive through the sense of touch. Since we all are unique in our indivual sensory awareness, the level of discernment will vary accordingly among us. Having not experienced hitting every club ever manufactured I can only comment on the ones I have hit. Among those, when will struck, I could tell not that this were cast or forged. 1. cg4 tour. 2. DCI 762 3. MCT 97

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1435840787' post='11875160']
Perhaps anyone who pants after whatever the manufacturers tell them this year could use a break from the Kool Aid too.
I don't mind being disagreed with but would appreciate that disagreement being respectful.
Although I came to golf "late" (I was almost 20 years old) I have been playing since 1979. During that over 35 years of play and having hit both I can feel difference. Whether you believe that or not makes no difference to me. As suggested earlier I am willing to concede that a lot of the difference may have to do with what forged irons were like 35 years ago and more and what they are like today.
[/quote]

This ^. I played modern cast cavity backs exclusively from the early 90's until 2013 when I switched to vintage forged blades. The difference is night and day, both on misses and the sweet spot. I will agree with the article writer though in that a lot of the perceived difference is auditory.

[birly-shirly]

If you start a thread with the complaint that someone is "incredibly full of it", then I think either (A) you must have incredibly solid grounds for not just disproving but utterly debunking what they've said; or (B) you've maybe left it a wee bit late to ask for respectful disagreement.

[Enfynet]

I don't feel like reading the article, but...

Isn't what golfers call "feel" actually more closely related to sound? The more muted sound, the softer "feel" the club has?

[stevemcgee99]

I can say from my own experience that different metals produced a different feel in chisels and planes. The forged, bimetal blades gave a different feel than the solid forged blades.

We may know all there is to know about metals, but we sure don't know everything about the human nervous system. If we did, schools would start getting the same results for every student.

[mahonie]

I think that there is definitely a difference. I've played forged clubs exclusively since 1996. Recently tried the Callaway X Hot irons in a store and I felt as though I was hitting everything thin even when flushing it. To be honest I was more than a little disappointed.

[Kathy Marie]

You know what, I remembered a post by Tad--who as far as I'm concerned is a Club Design Jedi Master along with Tom Wishon.

Here's a link to what he said about feel, cast vs. forged and iron design in another thread:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1113133-something-for-the-hogan-fans/#entry10625813"]http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry10625813[/url]

I'd *love* to hear his take on this article...!




KM

[BrianL99]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1435840787' post='11875160']
Perhaps anyone who pants after whatever the manufacturers tell them this year could use a break from the Kool Aid too.
I don't mind being disagreed with but would appreciate that disagreement being respectful.
Although I came to golf "late" (I was almost 20 years old) I have been playing since 1979. During that over 35 years of play and having hit both I can feel difference. Whether you believe that or not makes no difference to me. As suggested earlier I am willing to concede that a lot of the difference may have to do with what forged irons were like 35 years ago and more and what they are like today.
[/quote]

You can tell the difference, huh?

Name the 2 virtually identical clubs you've hit ... of which one was forged and one was cast?

To my knowledge, there were only two set of mainstream irons made in the last 30 years, which were available in "forged" & "cast".

Both irons had a touch more offset in the cast models. Apparently something to do with the casting process.

I owned both sets, both in cast and forged. The two irons were Hogan Edge Pro's and Tommy Armour Silverbacks. I personally tested them and had at least 10 other people test each set. NO ONE could consistently feel any difference between the two.

But forget my testing. Peterson's magazine (which named the Hogan Edge the #1 golf iron in the universe) did the same test with the same results ... no one could tell the difference. Curiously enough, Hogan did the same test with the same results.

This "argument" is little different than the typical "blade vs GI" argument, as that argument lends itself to subjective opinions.

The "cast vs forged" argument is fact based and not the least bit subjective. There is nothing inherently different in the reaction of the metal to the ball. Any perceived difference (as the author of the subject article pointed out) is related to other factors, primarily club design characteristics.

Tad Moore and Tom Wishon, two of the most prolific iron designers of the last 40 years, would surely disagree with you.

[url="http://golf.about.com/od/faqs/f/cast_forged.htm"]http://golf.about.co...cast_forged.htm[/url]

[stevemcgee99]

[b][i]Who is going to win??[/i][/b]

[birly-shirly]

The Edge Pro (presume we're talking about the Apex Edge Pro) was available as both cast and forged heads? Didn't know, and quite surprised to hear that.

I think "forged vers cast" might be the ultimate example of subjectivity. Didn't Paul Wood say that in tests, golfers thought an iron felt softer if it was stamped "forged"? That's pretty subjective (at least I think so .)

Even if the physical interaction between clubhead and ball, and the resultant sound and vibration, is identical in forged and cast heads - people's experiences are going to be influenced by their beliefs. Subjective doesn't mean irrelevant.

If you think blades are hard to hit, then you'll probably notice the experiences that corroborate your beliefs. Likewise, if you think cavitybacks can't shape the ball. If you think stiffer shafts will cure a hook, and offset cures a slice, and square grooves increase spin from fairway lies - I'd be tempted to lump those beliefs in the same category.

After all, everyone knows that red bikes are faster.

And red shirts are winninger. [url="https://community.dur.ac.uk/r.a.hill/Attrill_et_al_2008.pdf"]https://community.dur.ac.uk/r.a.hill/Attrill_et_al_2008.pdf[/url]

[BrianL99]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1435840787' post='11875160']

I don't mind being disagreed with but would appreciate that disagreement being respectful.

[/quote]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1435766621' post='11869430']

Anyone else read this and think the writer was incredibly full of it?

[/quote]

As you were to the original author?

[TimV]

Brian,
The original author was a golf company man. A representative for Ping I believe. You are correct that I didn't disagree with him in a respectful way. My apology to him. That doesn't mean I have to agree with him or you.
Question: Why must I "[color="#282828"]Name the 2 virtually identical clubs you've hit ... of which one was forged and one was cast" for my assertion to be correct? You are saying I have to hit 2 blade styles one cast and one forged? Hard to find cast blades I think. At least I'm not familiar with them. Also not a lot of forged cavity backs although there are some. I have a set. They also feel different from my forged blades. Pretty sure there are zero forged undercut cavity backs. This... "There is nothing inherently different in the reaction of the metal to the ball. Any perceived difference (as the author of the subject article pointed out) is related to other factors, primarily club design characteristics." is completely believable. Since for the most part cast and forged designs have differed greatly does it really matter? It's all of a piece. Historically at least the two methods have been used in dissimilar styles for the most part. So if you have two basically identical clubs made up one using the best modern casting materials and techniques and the other using a forged process could I tell the difference? Most likely not. BUT that's not a realistic comparison since the design [/color][color=#282828]characteristics[/color][color="#282828"] DO DIFFER! That means this is entirely an exercise in semantics. Can I feel the difference between forged and cast metal? Probably not. Can I feel the difference between forged and cast golf clubs. Yes, I can. Maybe I'm wrong, but I certainly got the impression that the article's author wanted to make me believe that there is no difference in feel between cast golf clubs and forged golf clubs. That's simply not true. If his intention was not to mislead me to think that there is no difference in feel between today's high tech cast clubs and forged clubs then I sincerely apologize to him. Having gotten older I have developed a certain skepticism for anyone I believe is trying to sell me something. [/color][color=#282828] [/color]

[VivaTerlingua]

I agree with it being subjective - as I mentioned above where I thought the author of the article nailed it. If an iron "feels" better to me, I couldn't care less what the data show. [u]As a matter of fact, it is irrelevant[/u] (other than to start an argument that neither side will win, or change minds). I have no doubt that Ping Eye 2's feel better to some people than an Apex. I have no doubt that Apex's feel better than Ping Eye 2's to others.

All the data in the world is not going to convince them otherwise. And why should it? Am I really more concerned with pointing out to someone else "but...but...but... there's no difference in feel between forged and cast.....I can prove it"

Feel (to me) has to do with a lot of things - head, shaft, grip, preconceived notions, etc. My word - will not the same shaft feel different on different heads? (but..but..but... there's no difference in the shaft - I can prove it"

Until data can measure MY feel, what difference does it make, really? And what difference is it to me what someone else feels?

I sincerely hope every one of us finds and plays the best feeling iron for us. And no, you cannot quantify my "feel". And no, I won't try to quantify yours.

[Enfynet]

Brian,

The original author was a golf company man. A representative for Ping I believe. You are correct that I didn't disagree with him in a respectful way. My apology to him. That doesn't mean I have to agree with him or you.

Question: Why must I "Name the 2 virtually identical clubs you've hit ... of which one was forged and one was cast" for my assertion to be correct? You are saying I have to hit 2 blade styles one cast and one forged? Hard to find cast blades I think. At least I'm not familiar with them. Also not a lot of forged cavity backs although there are some. I have a set. They also feel different from my forged blades. Pretty sure there are zero forged undercut cavity backs. This... "There is nothing inherently different in the reaction of the metal to the ball. Any perceived difference (as the author of the subject article pointed out) is related to other factors, primarily club design characteristics." is completely believable. Since for the most part cast and forged designs have differed greatly does it really matter? It's all of a piece. Historically at least the two methods have been used in dissimilar styles for the most part. So if you have two basically identical clubs made up one using the best modern casting materials and techniques and the other using a forged process could I tell the difference? Most likely not. BUT that's not a realistic comparison since the design characteristics DO DIFFER! That means this is entirely an exercise in semantics. Can I feel the difference between forged and cast metal? Probably not. Can I feel the difference between forged and cast golf clubs. Yes, I can. Maybe I'm wrong, but I certainly got the impression that the article's author wanted to make me believe that there is no difference in feel between cast golf clubs and forged golf clubs. That's simply not true. If his intention was not to mislead me to think that there is no difference in feel between today's high tech cast clubs and forged clubs then I sincerely apologize to him. Having gotten older I have developed a certain skepticism for anyone I believe is trying to sell me something. ;)

Tim,

 

These are forged undercut cavity backs.

 

[easyyy]

Brian, Tim and the rest... Please play nice and be respectful. I smell the tones that have a sharp edge and the subject adds concern that it could blow up. Feel is subjective and we are all intitled to our opinion.

I believe I can tell the difference and I will go to the grave with it. While I don't mind to debate it I do not like to be brow beaten.