Camera for video anaylsis

[FHal11]

any suggestions?

I recently borrowed a friend's camera to tape my swing and found the analysis extremely useful. I want to get a camera for myself to use frequently that will allow for good frame by frame analysis and will be good enough to see the clubshaft and clubhead at various positions during the swing. Does anyone have any suggestions for what camera (or even type of camera) would be good gor this?

I know normally someone would be concerned with picture quality and optical quality, but I am almost exclusively concerned with the ability to freeze my swing and see the club with as little blurring as possible.

Thanks for any suggestions and/or input.

[Trxjw]

Well the biggest thing you want to look for is a camera that will shoot high-fps (frames per second) video. Standard video is shot at 30fps (29.97fps if you want to be specific), you're looking for more than that. Ultra high fps cameras like the phantom v5, which was used to shoot this video of Tiger's swing (http://videos.golfnextdoor.com/video/dd6fd4ae-9a55-4b16-95e3-983600e93b76.htm - theres better site that has multiple angles, but I don't remember the URL) shoot at 1200fps, which is more than you need and frankly more than any of us can afford.

 

However, the new Sony Handycams are pretty solid and shoot HD video which will give you very good quality images. They also feature something called "Smooth Slow Recording" which allows you to shoot video at 240fps and play it back at the standard 30fps for ultra slow motion playback. I believe other manufacturers offer similar features as well. Hope this gets you started.

[DanZ]

I can second the recommendation for a Sony camera with Smooth Slow Record feature. It's the best consumer level way to look closely a golf swing frame by frame. The only issue with it is it's hard to use this feature on your own given the short time window. Some of the newer ones might make this is a little easier.

[FHal11]

Well, I just looked into one of those camera's. . .and they might be a bit out of my price range. Any suggestions for a cheaper alternative, or how to get a deal on one of those cameras?

[thatswhatshesaid]

I use the cswing software program to view my swing. Here is what they recommend for cameras.

 

cswing

[drew123]

isn't the phantom v5 like $12,000. that would be cool to use though.

[hoganfan924]

I can second the recommendation for a Sony camera with Smooth Slow Record feature. It's the best consumer level way to look closely a golf swing frame by frame. The only issue with it is it's hard to use this feature on your own given the short time window. Some of the newer ones might make this is a little easier.

 

 

I've checked out the Sony's on a few websites and they look great (can shoot both HD and SD, MiniDV, sports mode, etc.)just one problem. Maximum shutter speed is 1/500 sec. Has anyone shot video with one of these models (HDR-HC3, HDR-HC5 or HDR-HC7) to determine if that shutter speed is fast enough to see the clubface clearly at impact? I love the idea of the smooth slow record feature but am not sure that's worth it if I can't see the clubhead very clearly.

[MWL]

shutter speed has to be 1/2000 for clear view of club when swinging. That super slo mo thing on the sony is useless with a 1/500 shutter speed it will be blurred. Have a look at the Titleist performance institute website, "article library" and then "learning technology" they have an article on choosing video cameras.. IMO and theirs the best one is a Panasonic 3CCD camera mini-DV.. under $500 and amazing picture/colors with shutter speed up to 1/8000 and firewire and USB ports for connecting to computer. Perfect...

[w8liftr]

I second the recommendation for the Panasonic. I really have enjoyed mine, plus it does a good job recording my swing.

[JSC]

Some of the Canon digicams (higher end IS series) have a high frame rate movie mode. It does 60 fps for 30 seconds or so... long enough to capture one swing at a time, though not sure about the picture quality. My friend bought one recently, but I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

[Ducky]

DO NOT BUY A SONY HIGH DEFINITION CAMCORDER FOR THE PURPOSE OF RECORDING YOUR GOLF SWING!

 

I recently purchased a Sony HDR-SR7 (their latest high definition HDD camcorder) and although it is a solid camcorder for most tasks, it is absolutely terrible for recording your golf swing. The shutter speed is not manually adjustable, the "smooth slow recording" feature is cumbersome and requires a significant amount of light, and the MPEG-4 AVCHD codec has a lot of room for improvement in regards to picture quality.

 

My recommendation would be the Sanyo Xacti HD2. It is cheap, shoots 720p video (as opposed to 1080i on the Sony HDR-SR7), has a manually adjustable shutter speed, and decent picture quality.

 

Has anyone shot video with one of these models (HDR-HC3, HDR-HC5 or HDR-HC7) to determine if that shutter speed is fast enough to see the clubface clearly at impact?

I have posted some videos in this thread that were recorded using the "smooth slow recording" feature. The clubhead/hands are blurry in various parts. A camera that has a manually adjustable shutter speed would be a better solution.

[DanZ]

I've got the HDR-HC7 and I think it does a good job.

 

Clubface at impact isn't as big of a deal for me. The timing of the swing and the motion of the body in the swing is what I'm looking for. Cropping individual frames shows just before and just after impact even at 240fps so I don't see how a high shutter speed but signifigantly lower fps is going to catch the clubface just before impact. For that you need 1000+fps professional gear.

[hoganfan924]

Ducky,

 

Thanks a bunch for downloading your swing with SSR mode!!! Your input has been really helpful. While I agree that the Sony's at 1/500 shutter speed is fine for seeing what the body is doing, and the smooth slow record is a pretty cool feature, I really like to be able to freeze the clubhead & ball and see exactly where the face position and angle are throughout the swing. It's clear to see 1/500 isn't getting that done. I'm really disappointed as I was looking forward to that SSR feature!

[larrybud]

I can second the recommendation for a Sony camera with Smooth Slow Record feature. It's the best consumer level way to look closely a golf swing frame by frame. The only issue with it is it's hard to use this feature on your own given the short time window. Some of the newer ones might make this is a little easier.

 

Without spending a grand or more, here's what you want:

1. Manual shutter speed. Some cameras have "sports" mode, but I recommend one that you can actually specify the mode. I can go up to 1/2000 on my Canon. I have the Canon Optura 20. Not sure if they still make this.

2. Firewire output. USB can drop frames when dumping to the computer

3. A larger LCD screen. Most cameras only have a 2.5" screen. My canon has a 3.5". Great for on site review of your swing without a laptop.

4. Slow motion/frame advance on the camera itself. Again, for on-site review

 

If you're taking a laptop to the range, you might not need #3 and #4.

[larrybud]

shutter speed has to be 1/2000 for clear view of club when swinging. That super slo mo thing on the sony is useless with a 1/500 shutter speed it will be blurred.

 

 

I don't necessarily agree. HoganFan and I talked about this yesterday. at 1/500th of a second with a 100mph clubhead speed, the clubhead moves 3.52". From a down the line view, you won't see a blur.

 

I'm going to the range shortly, and I'll record 1/500, 1/1000 and 1/2000 for everyone to see the difference.

 

I usually record at 1/1000 because I want to see the ball (which will be blurred at 1/500), but have used 1/500 when inside the dome since it doesn't require as much light.

[larrybud]

Ok, here's a sample of 4 shutter speeds with a Canon Optura 20, with a gap wedge. As you can see, the day was overcast so limited light.

[adkima00]

I'm new to taping my swing, and don't mean to hijack the thread....BUT....

 

I just taped myself hitting some wiffle balls in the yard, and the full swing from behind looks great. However, when focusing on the ball from almost overhead, I keep missing the impact of the ball. I was recording at 1/10000 on a panasonic pv-L550D. Is there a trick to getting the impact perfectly? Is the shutter speed I was using too fast? Or do I just keep hitting and hope to get lucky on tape?

 

BTW, this is an older camera and can not download the video to the pc. It's tape only.

 

Thanks.

 

Matt

[hoganfan924]

I'm new to taping my swing, and don't mean to hijack the thread....BUT....

 

I just taped myself hitting some wiffle balls in the yard, and the full swing from behind looks great. However, when focusing on the ball from almost overhead, I keep missing the impact of the ball. I was recording at 1/10000 on a panasonic pv-L550D. Is there a trick to getting the impact perfectly? Is the shutter speed I was using too fast? Or do I just keep hitting and hope to get lucky on tape?

 

Thanks.

 

Matt

 

Shutter speed has nothing to do with catching the club at impact. Shutter speed just determines the exposure time for each frame that is being shot. Almost all cameras film at 30 frames per second. Some cameras film at 60 fields per second in an interlaced format (every other line in the field is updated 30 times/sec. in an alternating way). The interlaced views will produce freeze frames where you see two images of the clubhead/shaft. Almost all camcorders that have a sports mode will give you more of a true 30 fps so you don't see this double image.

 

Most players downswings (from the top to impact) are between 7 and 10 frames, so there's no trick, you just have to get lucky to catch impact.

[adkima00]

Most players downswings (from the top to impact) are between 7 and 10 frames, so there's no trick, you just have to get lucky to catch impact.

 

That's what I though. Thanks for the info...

 

Matt

[DanZ]

Here is where the high frame rate of the SSR mode on Sony cams comes in handy. The club may be a bit out of focus (I'll try to make a better capture from raw data tonight if I can) but you can see just before and just after impact pretty well.

 

(this is a hybrid shot)

Before:

After:

[joealtus]

So basically the differences between a camcorder with a high shutter speed and a Sony with "smooth slow recording" are:

 

1. non-Sony: A swing recorded at 30 frames per second, and each frame is shot at from 1/1000 to 1/4000 of a second, depending on what you set it to. Thus, for every second of video, you get 30 frames that would be relatively free of motion blur from your swing being too fast for the shutter speed to freeze. A two second swing would get you 60 relatively sharp images.

 

2. Sony "slow": A swing recorded at 240 frames per second, and each frame is shot at 1/500 of a second. Thus, for every second of video, you get 240 frames that would suffer from some motion blur because 1/500 of a second isn't quite fast enough to freeze the action. A two second swing would get you 480 somewhat motion blurred images.

 

That seems like a difficult choice to make, unfortunately.

[d0n]

GREAT THREAD! Just setup an account here so that I could use the search function to look for threads on camera selection. Waaa-la, I find a treasure chest...

 

I spoke with a lady at CSwing yesterday and her recommendation was the ZR line of Cannon cameras. She assured me that the ZR line would definitely pick up the club face, hands, and ball throughout the swing. The price seems good so I think I'm going to pickup an 800 or 850 this weekend. Anyone have any experience with the ZR's?

[larrybud]

Here is where the high frame rate of the SSR mode on Sony cams comes in handy. The club may be a bit out of focus (I'll try to make a better capture from raw data tonight if I can) but you can see just before and just after impact pretty well.

 

(this is a hybrid shot)

Before:

After:

 

This looks like you've uploaded an interlaced image.

[DanZ]

The camera is recording interlaced in order to get the frame rate as high as possible. I didn't get a chance to check the raw feed from the camcorder yet but I'm pretty sure it looks pretty close to the one I uploaded. I'll try to confirm tomorrow.

[hoganfan924]

IMO and theirs the best one is a Panasonic 3CCD camera mini-DV.. under $500 and amazing picture/colors with shutter speed up to 1/8000 and firewire and USB ports for connecting to computer. Perfect...

 

I checked on the Panasonic PV-GS series and they look like great camcorders for golf swing recording. Then I found one major problem in the tech reviews online. In order to access the IEEE-1394 port (firewire) you have to remove the battery. So if you want to capture realtime using Cswing or V1 (instead of recording first then transferring), you can't do it without using the A/C power supply.

 

Been doing a ton of research and if you want to take the camcorder and laptop to the range and record realtime right to the computer, the Canon ZR700 and Elura100 look like the best bets. They have firewire and can record at 1/2000 with manual shutter control. Just wish someone made an HD camcorder with these same capabilities.

[d0n]

Bought the zr800 this weekend ($270 w/ tax at Circuit City.) Attached it to the laptop w/ cswing software and was pleasantly surprised that I could see the unblurred clubhead throughout the swing. This was with a shutter speed of 2000 outside in the sunlight. If my posture wasn't so bad, I'd upload some pictures. :drinks: Shutter speed of 1000 was a tad bit blurred around impact but not bad. It may have been do to the lighting as I was in the backyard hitting balls in the cage and the camera was in the shaddow of my garage. With both 1000/2000 shutter speeds the video was bright outside but inside it was very dark and not easy to view on the laptop. Overall the camera performed as I hoped.

[charleychen]

Ok, here's a sample of 4 shutter speeds with a Canon Optura 20, with a gap wedge. As you can see, the day was overcast so limited light.

 

 

Larry, can you post some images with various shutter speeds from a front on view? I've been researching for a camcorder to record my swing, and had decided on the Sony HDR-CX7 because of it's side and slow motion capabilities. But if the front view is too blurry, I may have to rethink it.

[rossonero]

Does anyone has experience with Sony DCR 72E with harddisk. I know there is not firewire, but to buy "old stuff" MiniDV tape is like buying an commodore 64, as the miniDV soon will be gone.

 

In fact, I don´t understand the problem about firewire. If I want to transfer the recordings to my pc, I know firewire is a bit faster than USB2, but besides that the recording is the same ?

[SpeedyPro]

Waiting for this guy to come.

 

Casio Highspeed digital camera

[BallSpinner]

Does anyone has experience with Sony DCR 72E with harddisk. I know there is not firewire, but to buy "old stuff" MiniDV tape is like buying an commodore 64, as the miniDV soon will be gone.

 

In fact, I don´t understand the problem about firewire. If I want to transfer the recordings to my pc, I know firewire is a bit faster than USB2, but besides that the recording is the same ?

 

Firewire vs. USB 2.0: According to the swing software sites, if you are using the direct capture mode (i.e., recording to the computer rather than the camcorder), USB will drop frames.

 

Firewire:

 

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The best way to get video into your computer is the long established FireWire standard. FireWire is a digital data transfer standard. It is also known as IEEE 1394 and i.Link. Although some camcorders come with a USB cable, the video quality obtained using USB is poor or in the MPEG-2 video standard and is not suitable for video analysis. FireWire's higher transfer rate allows full quality digital video to be transferred from your miniDV camcorder to your computer. There are two types of FireWire connections: 4-pin and 6-pin. The FireWire interface on miniDV and Digital8 camcorders is a 4-pin connection. Most laptops have a 4-pin connection and most desktops have a 6- pin connection. Be sure to check your set up to see what type of cable you need (4-pin/4-pin or 4-pin/6-pin). Some add-on cards include a cable, but most camcorders and computers do not. Your local electronics or computer store may have a cable, but they may charge $35 or $40 for one vs. about $10 online.

 

If you want to use multiple cameras, due to a limitation of the way miniDV camcorders work with FireWire, you will need one FireWire card per camcorder. This is a hardware limitation, not a problem with Windows or cSwing.

 

HDD v. MiniDV: HDD uses compression and MiniDV does not. Again, according to the swing software sites, the compression is not good for swing analysis video.

 

Video Cameras and Equipment:

There are many types of video cameras and camcorders available. If you are purchasing a new camcorder, we strongly recommend getting a miniDV model. Canon and Sony are the two most popular brands. miniDV camcorders from other manufacturers like JVC, Panasonic, Samsung and Sharp generally work well too. All miniDV camcorders have a FireWire port which is the best way to transfer video to your computer.

 

We do not recommend microMV format from Sony nor hard drive and DVD camcorders from any manufacturer because they do not provide good quality video for analysis and capture driver support in Windows isn't adequate. Because of the compression used in them you will see digital artifacts during fast motion sequences such as a golf club at impact.

 

Webcams generally do not provide control through DirectX over shutter speed and most will not provide 640x480 at 30 frames/second. However if you are on a budget you can try them with our trial.

 

Security, CCT, analog and Hi8 cameras can work with cSwing but they don't provide the same video quality as miniDV and most don't have FireWire output. They work best with a DV FireWire bridge such as a Canopus ADVC 55 or 100.

 

We do not recommend Network (IP) cameras because they don't provide adequate frame rates and they don't integrate well with Microsoft's DirectX.

 

The High Definition camcorders from Canon, Sony and others are not currently recommended unless they support SD (standard definition) video like the Canon HV10. We are investigating HD support but most formats are not supported by default in Windows at this time. Some models such as the Sony HC3 and SR1 HD cameras only support 1/500 second shutter speed and are not recommended for this reason.

 

We recommend Canon because all their miniDV camcorders have a manual setting for shutter speed. A shutter speed of at least 1/1000 of a second is important for getting a clear picture of a fast motion such as a golf swing or a baseball swing. Many cameras that don't have the manual shutter speed feature, including most Sony models, have a Sports mode. This mode automatically sets the shutter speed as high as it can be based on the available light. This works well in most lighting conditions, but where available light is sufficiently low you may experience some blurring of the clubhead at impact. One advantage that many of the Sony miniDV camcorders offer is a 3.5" view screen vs. the 2.5" on most Canons.

 

Canon camcorders come in the following series: ZR ($300 and up), Elura ($350 and up), Optura ($450 and up) and GL-2 ($2,000). Series names are different outside North America (MV, MVX and XM series). The model numbers within each of these series change approximately every year (the ZR 100 to 700 series and the Elura 100 are currently recommended, we recommend the Elura if it is within your budget). If you have more money in your budget, each higher priced series progressively offers better optics, sharper pictures and better color definition. The Canon GL-2 adds Frame movie mode (Progressive Scan) which gives an even clearer picture for putting and chipping. It is more bulky than the other models. More details about Canon camcorders are available at http://www.canondv.com. Here is a site in Australia that shows the camcorders with model names used outside North America.

 

In the U.S., you can save by buying your camcorder online. We recommend Worldwide Digital or Profeel. Often, they will try to sell you accessories but if you're looking to save money you can find better deals on batteries on eBay.

 

One of our preferred stores listed below, Profeel, offers reasonably priced accessory packages when you purchase the camcorder. We recommend their deluxe package which generally includes: 5 tapes, a tripod, a UV filter, a camera case, an extended life battery and a five-year warranty. The deluxe package costs around $300 depending on the camera.

 

We recommend shooting on a tripod because a steady picture works best for analysis. A UV filter will protect your lens and offer some glare protection. The batteries that come with the cameras generally last from a half-hour to an hour. An extra extended life battery comes in handy. eBay is a good place to get good prices on non-OEM batteries. One vendor we recommend for batteries is Battery Heads (they also sell on eBay).

 

Some still cameras come with movie modes that will work with cSwing. The best way to test whether your camera will work is to use our free trial. Insert the memory card into your PCs card reader and try cSwing's import feature. Some formats, particularly .MOV (QuickTime), require a DirectX plug-in. Search for "QuickTime Alternative" on Google for the DirectX that works with DirectShow/cSwing. Canon's Digital Elph SD series is the best still camera we have found in our testing. It shoots AVIs at 320x240 and 60 fps. The SD200 starts just over $200.

 

A Unidirectional (carotid) mic is recommended for the Hit Detector for use in Live mode. You can pick up a moderately priced mic at your local RadioShack for about $30. You will also need a 1/4" to mini-jack adapter unless your sound card has a 1/4" plug. You only really need the microphone if you are filming yourself. It is easier to just hit the spacebar on the keyboard at impact if you are filming someone else in Live mode or loading video from tape.