What's a long par 4 for the LPGA now?

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

I was watching the Greenbrier recently, and there was a par-4 of about 380 yards. The commentator said something along the lines of this is a short par 4 for men now and won't hold any fear for the pros. OK, I think that's probably been true since I started playing in the Eighties, but it got me thinking a little. Over the weekend I was watching a little bit of the JLPGA tournament (Nippon Ham Ladies Classic) on TV, and the opening hole there was 395 yard par 4, playing downhill somewhat. The players were all hitting driver and were getting down to within pretty much PW/9i range. Yoshiba Rumi, who is the longest on the JLPGA this year with a 260y driving average, smacked a beauty down to what must have been a gap wedge or less.

 

So that got me to wonder what counts as a long par 4 now on the LPGA, from a player's perspective. If this wasn't downhill, would 400 yards be considered long?

Incidentally, without looking it up, I would imagine that the average driving distance on the LPGA Tour is longer than on the JLPGA Tour.

Incidentally, with regard to the PGA Tour, I would think a par 4 would have to be over 450 yards to be regarded as long now.

[ausgolfgirl]

420-430yards is long for us. I can't recall playing too many par 4's over that length

[RBImGuy]

395 is long for the shortest girls on tour.

for lexi etc..its a joke

[8602081]

US open 9th hole is about 420, which I think is the longest Par 4 for the tournament..

 

192 yards par 3 on 4th hole will be fun to watch (ever the water).. Probably driver for some...

 

[Argonne69]

I don't recall seeing a par 4 longer than 420 on the LPGA. I'd say 420 to 440 would be long. The USGA guidelines for women list 401+ as a par 5, and 471+ as a par 5 for men.

 

At the Olympics last year the par 4 2nd was listed as 435 yards on the scorecard. The 12th was 430, the 11th was 420 yards, and the 7th was 409. (https://en.wikipedia...=edit&section=4)

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

420-430yards is long for us. I can't recall playing too many par 4's over that length

 

Thanks for the reply. That distance is about what I would expect, I think. Looking at Yoshiba Rumi's average of 260 yards, on a flat 430y hole that's still going to leave 170 in good conditions (no wind against etc.), which would be a longish iron or even hybrid for many players, right?

 

I don't recall seeing a par 4 longer than 420 on the LPGA. I'd say 420 to 440 would be long. The USGA guidelines for women list 401+ as a par 5, and 471+ as a par 5 for men.

 

At the Olympics last year the par 4 2nd was listed as 435 yards on the scorecard. The 12th was 430, the 11th was 420 yards, and the 7th was 409. (https://en.wikipedia...edit&section=4)

 

Those guidelines may be for amateurs, but for the pros it's totally different now. When I started playing in the Eighties, I don't recall seeing the pros play 500y holes as par 4s*, but now they do frequently.

 

*Although at that length, they tended to play them as reachable par 5s.

[ausgolfgirl]

420-430yards is long for us. I can't recall playing too many par 4's over that length

 

Thanks for the reply. That distance is about what I would expect, I think. Looking at Yoshiba Rumi's average of 260 yards, on a flat 430y hole that's still going to leave 170 in good conditions (no wind against etc.), which would be a longish iron or even hybrid for many players, right?

 

I don't recall seeing a par 4 longer than 420 on the LPGA. I'd say 420 to 440 would be long. The USGA guidelines for women list 401+ as a par 5, and 471+ as a par 5 for men.

 

At the Olympics last year the par 4 2nd was listed as 435 yards on the scorecard. The 12th was 430, the 11th was 420 yards, and the 7th was 409. (https://en.wikipedia...edit&section=4)

 

Those guidelines may be for amateurs, but for the pros it's totally different now. When I started playing in the Eighties, I don't recall seeing the pros play 500y holes as par 4s*, but now they do frequently.

 

*Although at that length, they tended to play them as reachable par 5s.

 

 

 

Assuming no wind, flat hole, a player who averages 260 and leaves 170 would sit in between a 5-6 iron coming in. Assuming swing speed with driver is around 100mph with driver and around 79mph with 6 iron for those averages. Obviously if you put up a 10mph wind into your face, the hole changes dramatically and its reasonable to expect 3 iron-3 wood coming in for the same player.

 

Id say 430 for the average female pro I play with would have driver, 3-4 iron or some sort of hybrid.

[Argonne69]

The median driving average on the LPGA is 250 yards. 3 woods are probably in the 230 range. 3 hybrids in the 210 range.

 

The top 10 players in driving distance average 270+, so most par 5's playing at 500 yards are reachable in two. A 430 yard par 4 would generally be driver, 6 iron. OTOH, Mo Martin, averaging 237 off the tee, would likely be hitting a 3h for her approach.

[Shilgy]

Just a quick glance at a few of the events gave these results:

Phoenix had the longest par 4 at 438 yards

Canada had one at 431 and six over 400. That was the most I saw on the card. They also had one at 392.

Kia Classic had the longest par 5 at 570.

 

Using 13.5% which is about the difference between the mens versus ladies average the equivalent to a 500 yard par 4 for the men would be 432 yards for the women. The 570 yard par 5 is the equivalent to a 659 yarder for the men.

[dhc1]

The listed distances on each hole are usually at least 10 yard off with the potential for much more if they want to induce players to try to drive the greens.

[Argonne69]

The listed distances on each hole are usually at least 10 yard off with the potential for much more if they want to induce players to try to drive the greens.

 

The distance listed on the hole is measured from the wall behind the tees, so yes, 5 to 10 yards less seems to be a good estimate.

 

It's no secret that the LPGA usually moves the tee up on one par four on the weekends to make the hole driveable.

[Shilgy]

The listed distances on each hole are usually at least 10 yard off with the potential for much more if they want to induce players to try to drive the greens.

 

The distance listed on the hole is measured from the wall behind the tees, so yes, 5 to 10 yards less seems to be a good estimate.

 

It's no secret that the LPGA usually moves the tee up on one par four on the weekends to make the hole driveable.

They must do it differently at every event then. The yardage on the pole sign at the tee box is the stated yardage of the hole and it does vary a bit hole to hole. At Phoenix one day they used a tee about 25 yards further back on one hole. But in general I have not seen the wall to be the zero point so to speak so that EVERY hole is at least 10 yards shorter. That would be too odd and make it irrelevant. It is easy to see at LPGA events because their is not a big crowd and you can see the permanent yardage plate on the tee quite easily . My experience has been that both of these will have the same yardage and that both are the same and are the yardage the hole will play on a typical day. Not the distance from the wall or the pole. Do they sometimes move up the tees like 18 at the ANA? Of course they do just like all other tours.

[Argonne69]

If the yardage of on a pole, then that's the distance from that point. It's fairly easy to move it up or back, as there's nothing in the way.

 

For courses with billboards behind the tee box, I believe the listed yardage is to the sign. They generally don't move their sign, so if it basically represents the longest distance, but given that the markers can't be placed at the sign, the hole plays shorter.

 

I was able to see numerous yardage markers on the tee boxes at the Volvik and KPMG, and they were accurate relative to the billboard and signposts.

[Shilgy]

If the yardage of on a pole, then that's the distance from that point. It's fairly easy to move it up or back, as there's nothing in the way.

 

For courses with billboards behind the tee box, I believe the listed yardage is to the sign. They generally don't move their sign, so if it basically represents the longest distance, but given that the markers can't be placed at the sign, the hole plays shorter.

 

I was able to see numerous yardage markers on the tee boxes at the Volvik and KPMG, and they were accurate relative to the billboard and signposts.

So you think virtually every course on tours is played at 180 yards or so less than stated yardage? This is the card for the 2017 Open Championship. I hope it pastes ok. You think the real yardage is 180 less? There is nothing in the way for the yardage pole but its not easy to move. It's into the ground a good ways and normally is not moved day to day. The 2017 Open Championship at Royal Birkdale Golf Club Tee Rating/Slope 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Out 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 In Total Yardage n/a 450 421 451 201 346 499 178 457 414 3417 408 436 184 499 201 544 439 572 473 3756 7,173 Par 4 4 4 3 4 4 3 4 4 34 4 4 3 4 3 5 4 5 4 36 70

[Argonne69]

If the yardage of on a pole, then that's the distance from that point. It's fairly easy to move it up or back, as there's nothing in the way.

 

For courses with billboards behind the tee box, I believe the listed yardage is to the sign. They generally don't move their sign, so if it basically represents the longest distance, but given that the markers can't be placed at the sign, the hole plays shorter.

 

I was able to see numerous yardage markers on the tee boxes at the Volvik and KPMG, and they were accurate relative to the billboard and signposts.

So you think virtually every course on tours is played at 180 yards or so less than stated yardage? This is the card for the 2017 Open Championship. I hope it pastes ok. You think the real yardage is 180 less? There is nothing in the way for the yardage pole but its not easy to move. It's into the ground a good ways and normally is not moved day to day. The 2017 Open Championship at Royal Birkdale Golf Club Tee Rating/Slope 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Out 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 In Total Yardage n/a 450 421 451 201 346 499 178 457 414 3417 408 436 184 499 201 544 439 572 473 3756 7,173 Par 4 4 4 3 4 4 3 4 4 34 4 4 3 4 3 5 4 5 4 36 70

 

Again, if the yardage is on a pole positioned along the side of the teebox, the tee markers can be positioned in front of, behind, or at the pole. In this case they can play at the listed distance with no problems.

 

However, when there's a billboard/sign on the back of the teebox, it's generally not moved between rounds. The tee markers can only be placed in front of the sign, usually 5 to 10 yards. That's what I saw at the Volvik.

 

So, no, not every tournament is played 90 to 180 yards shorter than listed. The one's that use billboards are very likely shorter. The ones that use poles, e.g. KPMG, have more flexibility.

[Burglar]

#9 at the PGA Championship was 420 yards. It was the toughest hole on the course for the entire week.

 

And #17 was 207 yards, with wind in their face a couple days. They play some pretty long holes.

[Shilgy]

 

Again, if the yardage is on a pole positioned along the side of the teebox, the tee markers can be positioned in front of, behind, or at the pole. In this case they can play at the listed distance with no problems.

 

However, when there's a billboard/sign on the back of the teebox, it's generally not moved between rounds. The tee markers can only be placed in front of the sign, usually 5 to 10 yards. That's what I saw at the Volvik.

 

So, no, not every tournament is played 90 to 180 yards shorter than listed. The one's that use billboards are very likely shorter. The ones that use poles, e.g. KPMG, have more flexibility.

If the tee markers are 5-10 yards ahead of the wall the wall will have that "normal" yardage, not distance to wall. Often the wall is a few yards being the back of the tee.

Have you seen an event where the number on the pole certain changes? I have not. It is the same number as the wall version. And the pole is in a permanent spot for the duration of the event.

That said we have been to different events so perhaps some are different.

[joker2]

There is a YouTube video of a jlpga event, showing multiple players over several rounds hitting drives on a par 5. Lexi was not the longest, there was at least 1 or 2 longer, and many hung in there. I will link if I can....

[Argonne69]

Again, if the yardage is on a pole positioned along the side of the teebox, the tee markers can be positioned in front of, behind, or at the pole. In this case they can play at the listed distance with no problems.

 

However, when there's a billboard/sign on the back of the teebox, it's generally not moved between rounds. The tee markers can only be placed in front of the sign, usually 5 to 10 yards. That's what I saw at the Volvik.

 

So, no, not every tournament is played 90 to 180 yards shorter than listed. The one's that use billboards are very likely shorter. The ones that use poles, e.g. KPMG, have more flexibility.

If the tee markers are 5-10 yards ahead of the wall the wall will have that "normal" yardage, not distance to wall. Often the wall is a few yards being the back of the tee.

Have you seen an event where the number on the pole certain changes? I have not. It is the same number as the wall version. And the pole is in a permanent spot for the duration of the event.

That said we have been to different events so perhaps some are different.

 

I was at the Volvik with my Skycaddie. The distance displayed on the wall was in fact the distance to the wall, and not the tee markers in front of them. Thus, the hole was playing shorter than the displayed yardage.

 

I'm not saying that the poles move, or that the distance on the pole moves. They're located adjacent to the tee boxes, so the markers can be placed further back, meaning that the hole can (and does) play longer than the distance displayed on the pole. When billboards are used, they can't place the tees behind the billboard, so the wall represents the longest the hole can play.

 

Here's an example from the Volvik. The 1st hole was listed as 391 yards. I measured it at 378 yards from the tee markers, which were located ~13 yards in front of the sign.

 

 

 

By comparison, the KPMG used posts. The 1st hole was shown playing 525 yards, but the tee markers were 15 yards in front of the sign, and it was playing at 510 yards. However, they could have moved the markers to the back of the teebox, and it would have played >525 yards.

 

[Shilgy]

Perhaps the disconnect is this... Do you know if the wall yardages matched the pretournament announced yardage or was a bit more?

[Argonne69]

Perhaps the disconnect is this... Do you know if the wall yardages matched the pretournament announced yardage or was a bit more?

 

I'll try to dig up the official yardages from the LPGA website tomorrow, but I believe the yardages listed on the wall matched the official distance.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

420-430yards is long for us. I can't recall playing too many par 4's over that length

 

Thanks for the reply. That distance is about what I would expect, I think. Looking at Yoshiba Rumi's average of 260 yards, on a flat 430y hole that's still going to leave 170 in good conditions (no wind against etc.), which would be a longish iron or even hybrid for many players, right?

 

I don't recall seeing a par 4 longer than 420 on the LPGA. I'd say 420 to 440 would be long. The USGA guidelines for women list 401+ as a par 5, and 471+ as a par 5 for men.

 

At the Olympics last year the par 4 2nd was listed as 435 yards on the scorecard. The 12th was 430, the 11th was 420 yards, and the 7th was 409. (https://en.wikipedia...edit&section=4)

 

Those guidelines may be for amateurs, but for the pros it's totally different now. When I started playing in the Eighties, I don't recall seeing the pros play 500y holes as par 4s*, but now they do frequently.

 

*Although at that length, they tended to play them as reachable par 5s.

 

 

 

Assuming no wind, flat hole, a player who averages 260 and leaves 170 would sit in between a 5-6 iron coming in. Assuming swing speed with driver is around 100mph with driver and around 79mph with 6 iron for those averages. Obviously if you put up a 10mph wind into your face, the hole changes dramatically and its reasonable to expect 3 iron-3 wood coming in for the same player.

 

Id say 430 for the average female pro I play with would have driver, 3-4 iron or some sort of hybrid.

 

Again, thanks for the reply and information. It's great to have such a detailed response to my rather random musings!

[Argonne69]

Perhaps the disconnect is this... Do you know if the wall yardages matched the pretournament announced yardage or was a bit more?

 

I'll try to dig up the official yardages from the LPGA website tomorrow, but I believe the yardages listed on the wall matched the official distance.

 

I found the course map for the Volvik at Travis Pointe CC (http://www.lpga.com/tournaments/volvik-championship/course-info), and the 1st hole is listed at 391 yards, which matches the sign at the back of the 1st teebox.

[Shilgy]

Perhaps the disconnect is this... Do you know if the wall yardages matched the pretournament announced yardage or was a bit more?

 

I'll try to dig up the official yardages from the LPGA website tomorrow, but I believe the yardages listed on the wall matched the official distance.

 

I found the course map for the Volvik at Travis Pointe CC (http://www.lpga.com/...hip/course-info), and the 1st hole is listed at 391 yards, which matches the sign at the back of the 1st teebox.

That's very interesting to me because I know at the Phoenix event at Wildfire the pole and wall yardage were the same and were the yardage at the plate on the tee being used. Odd they would use differing methods.

I just looked at the Travis Pointe scorecard and the first hole is listed at 385 which would jive with the wall measurement. Verrrry interesting.

[DavePelz4]

You have to look at playing conditions as well. Some of the fairways have a ton of roll and wet fairways obviously have less. A 370 yard hole could play as long as a 400 yard hole if one is wet or plush and the other is dry and firm.