if miura is so great.....

[KDMullins]

The reason for double blind testing is that people cannot make accurate judgments about subjective qualities, like feel, if they know which club is forged and which is cast. They think they can but they can't. In double blind tests the best golfers in the world do no better than chance in distinguishing cast from forged. It seems that only people on equipment forums have that ability, or think they do.

 

Steve

 

I keep seeing posts about these tests...where are they? Who performed them? I'd like to see that info. It's not that I agree or disagree, but I am curious to see the results, who was in the test, what clubs were tested, etc.

[sandy]

Heck, I thought Tiger forged his own irons.........

 

 

 

Ya know, he is a hands-on type......

 

I thought you were going to tell us he could walk on water while forging his own irons. :)

 

Folks this is a great post.

Aren't we talking about a piece of metal? Anyway most if not all MAJOR OEMS will eventually go to cast. It's just cheaper to produce. It's all about profit margin. Forging is a lost art (dead in my opinion). You will NOT see any major technological advances in forging metal. Cast is were it's at and will be until something else better comes along.

 

UMMMMM, No.

Most good players I've run into will not touch a cast club; they are too inconsistent. I had one set of cast irons and they were from the Titleist tour dept back in the early 90s. Loved em, but I switched within the year.

 

SHHHH don't tell Lorena Ochoa and Angel Cabrerra that or they might give their major trophies back now that they know they are playing with inconsistent clubs.

 

When you make statements about cast clubs being too inconsistent you apparently know nothing about metallurgy. Each can be made very consistent through the manufacturing processes but a cast club requires much less metal manipulation than a forged club to achieve this "consistency".

[nyhacker]

The reason for double blind testing is that people cannot make accurate judgments about subjective qualities, like feel, if they know which club is forged and which is cast. They think they can but they can't. In double blind tests the best golfers in the world do no better than chance in distinguishing cast from forged. It seems that only people on equipment forums have that ability, or think they do.

 

Steve

 

I keep seeing posts about these tests...where are they? Who performed them? I'd like to see that info. It's not that I agree or disagree, but I am curious to see the results, who was in the test, what clubs were tested, etc.

 

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/15100/23326/

 

even in the seventies with the not so great casting they couldn't tell. not exactly the study but frank thomas is pretty reliable considering his former position with the USGA

[sandy]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

 

 

I've played/hit every brand of cast irons out there and was previously of the above thinking--i.e. "how can they be that much better"...but BELIEVE ME, there's A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!

 

I played the Forged 300 from Taylor Made, and they felt good--there was a nice difference that I could see from my Ping i3 blades...but now, after a 3 year run with the Ping s59 irons, I'm swinging the MacGregor FORGED M685, and the feel is FREAKIN INCREDIBLE!!! Granted I'm a much better ball striker than when I played the 300s or some of my previous irons, but from the FIRST BALL I STRUCK with the M685 vs. the s59, I've been COMPLETELY SOLD on forged!!!

 

You don't really consider the MacGregor M685s a true forged club do you?? 3-6 have that horrible feeling hollow "technology". Hopefully the new management will dump this japanese game improvement junk and return to real forgings.

[KDMullins]

The reason for double blind testing is that people cannot make accurate judgments about subjective qualities, like feel, if they know which club is forged and which is cast. They think they can but they can't. In double blind tests the best golfers in the world do no better than chance in distinguishing cast from forged. It seems that only people on equipment forums have that ability, or think they do.

 

Steve

 

I keep seeing posts about these tests...where are they? Who performed them? I'd like to see that info. It's not that I agree or disagree, but I am curious to see the results, who was in the test, what clubs were tested, etc.

 

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/15100/23326/

 

even in the seventies with the not so great casting they couldn't tell. not exactly the study but frank thomas is pretty reliable considering his former position with the USGA

 

Again, it's somebody talking about a test that was performed. I'm curious as to the specifics.

[cuteo100]

The same arguments for forged vs. cast irons can be said for Walmart's vs. Tour's clubs. Choose the weapons of your choice , gents!

 

The best of the very best player in the world use forged blades. Enough said!

[Solutions Etcetera]

Again, it's somebody talking about a test that was performed. I'm curious as to the specifics.

Feel free to drop Frank a note. Please post back here if he gets more specific. For now I'll settle for the conclusions of metallurgists.

 

Even gunsmiths that would only use pre mid sixties barreled actions for building custom target machines have come to the conclusion that modern day castings are as good or better than any forgings. So have racing teams, ship builders, and mechanical engineers in general.

 

Look... back in the day, forgings "were" superior. Castings were flawed with bubbles, layering, crystalline deposits, and other impurities and inconsistencies introduced by old technology. That is where this myth propagated from. Back then it wasn't a myth. Today, it is fiction... but handed down from golfer to golfer.

 

Golf has as much tradition as any pastime, and if you feel better playing more traditionally fabricated equipment, that's your right and privilege... but recommending forged as being more consistent (or better in any measurable parameter) is not being completely truthful at best. But as with anything, myths and old wives tales die hard. (c;

[nyhacker]

The same arguments for forged vs. cast irons can be said for Walmart's vs. Tour's clubs. Choose the weapons of your choice , gents!

 

The best of the very best player in the world use forged blades. Enough said!

 

I hope that was sarcasm because otherwise it has no bearing on the matter. Also, Tiger is extremely picky and resistant to change. He likes his irons to feel exactly how they have felt his whole life and back then all blades were forged so if someone wanted the playability of a blade it was default forged, so he continues to play them.

[juststeve]

The test I actually read about was reported in Golf Digest about 30 years ago. PGA Tour testers, including Ray Floyd, were given otherwise identical muscle back irons, some case, some forged, asked to hit them and say which were cast, which were forged. Their ability to identify cast from forged was 50%, that is the same as just guessing. I can't recall who else was in the study but Floyd had a pretty good pair of hands.

 

If there has been a subsequent blind test I havn't seen it.

 

This result is contrary to legend but not surprising if you think about it, In a collision between a golf club, any club, and a ball, what is the primary determiner of feel? Why the ball of course which is orders of magnitude softer than the club, any kind of club that is.

 

Steve

[Solutions Etcetera]

Just out of curiosity...

 

How many of you playing forged irons are playing forged drivers?

[ezra76]

There was big difference in feel between the Miuras and a set of 300Forged I recently bought and sold. Nippons vs. Rifles obviously played a part as well though.

[emc]

Think about it, the amount of good and not-so-good golfers that were sure of Vokeys being forged when they came out shows that there is little difference in feel between the 2, it's down to what your head thinks is a good feel, what your hands get and what your ears hear.

[KDMullins]

Again, it's somebody talking about a test that was performed. I'm curious as to the specifics.

Feel free to drop Frank a note. Please post back here if he gets more specific. For now I'll settle for the conclusions of metallurgists.

 

Even gunsmiths that would only use pre mid sixties barreled actions for building custom target machines have come to the conclusion that modern day castings are as good or better than any forgings. So have racing teams, ship builders, and mechanical engineers in general.

 

Look... back in the day, forgings "were" superior. Castings were flawed with bubbles, layering, crystalline deposits, and other impurities and inconsistencies introduced by old technology. That is where this myth propagated from. Back then it wasn't a myth. Today, it is fiction... but handed down from golfer to golfer.

 

Golf has as much tradition as any pastime, and if you feel better playing more traditionally fabricated equipment, that's your right and privilege... but recommending forged as being more consistent (or better in any measurable parameter) is not being completely truthful at best. But as with anything, myths and old wives tales die hard. (c;

 

I've played both, and honestly, I don't know how I feel about it. I've never done any testing of my own. There's no question cast clubs have come a long way...there's also no question that the processes are totally different...so it doesn't surprise me that people think they can tell a difference.

 

I've listened to the same debate about stainless vs. carbon putters. I generally prefer carbon...that said, I've putted with stainless putters that I thought felt like carbon, and vice-versa. I think you really have to be more specific, i.e. which two clubs are you comparing. That's the reason I'm curious about the test every body seems to know about except me. I'd just like to know how it was conducted, who participated, and what clubs they were using.

[dalehead]

Cast vs. forged. I have played both. Having grown up with forged irons I have played Wilson Staffs, MacGregors, Titleist and Hogan forgings. I have also played cast clubs including 3 vintages of Ping and Taylor Made. All I know is there is a certain feeling you get when you hit a forged club in the center of the cluface that I have never felt with any cast club. I can't speak for you or any of the tour pros referenced in this thread. All I know is what I have experienced and that is what I'm stating here.

I do have to admit that I'm not comparing identical irons. I'm comparing, for example, a Hogan forged blade to a TM casting. Maybe if I could compare identical forged and cast heads as described in some posts I would feel differently. But I've never had the opportunity to do that, just as I'm sure most of you have not.

 

.02 and I probably owe you change.

[RacineBoxer]

Just out of curiosity...

 

How many of you playing forged irons are playing forged drivers?

 

Neither currently. But I had a Mizuno Forged T-Zoid driver a few years back and it was the crappiest driver I've every had. Probably the only driver that didn't serve me for at least 2 seasons. But then again it was 9* with a shaft that was geared towards hitting it low so I was probably set up for failure right off the bat! :)

 

Well I do have forged Nike SV tour wedges. But I can't tell the difference between a Nike forged wedge and a Cleveland cast wedge really.

[nukexbi]

Cast clubs are molten steel poured into a casting, there are some small air pockets that naturally occur with this. A good friend of mine had a set of tommy armour 845's and if he hit the pw in a certain spot on the face it would fly 20 yards farther than it should. Im sure this was an air pocket in the casting. With forged you get alot more consistency on yardage, that is a fact.

Sorry, but I gotta call BS on this one. This was hardly a scientific test to detemine the metal properties of the pw iron. If an air pocket really made the ball fly 20 yards farther then manufacturers would find a way to put the bubbles in on purpose. And if forged was so much better for yardage accuracy then why are so many great clubs cast (think of Volkey, Ping, etc)?

 

From Tom Wishon,

"If you have a cast iron and a forged iron of exactly the same shape and weight distribution design, the same loft, the same center of gravity position in the two heads, and the heads are built with the same shaft, same length, same grip and same swingweight/MOI, hitting the same ball, the shots will fly identical distances."

[ApexGrind]

I think it might be true that cast iron has "hot" spots. You might only be able to measure them in the lab though. And I think an air bubble would be a dead spot, not the opposite.

[SwingMan]

I think it might be true that cast iron has "hot" spots. You might only be able to measure them in the lab though. And I think an air bubble would be a dead spot, not the opposite.

 

 

As to hot spots, people once complained about Callaway or other cast clubs as being inconsistent -- pointing to hot spots. These complaints seem to have dissipated over the last 7 years or so.

 

Ping uses their own casting method to ensure that they don't have hot spots.

 

It seems as if quality irons these days have fewer inconsistencies.

[nyhacker]

Cast clubs are molten steel poured into a casting, there are some small air pockets that naturally occur with this. A good friend of mine had a set of tommy armour 845's and if he hit the pw in a certain spot on the face it would fly 20 yards farther than it should. Im sure this was an air pocket in the casting. With forged you get alot more consistency on yardage, that is a fact.

Sorry, but I gotta call BS on this one. This was hardly a scientific test to detemine the metal properties of the pw iron. If an air pocket really made the ball fly 20 yards farther then manufacturers would find a way to put the bubbles in on purpose. And if forged was so much better for yardage accuracy then why are so many great clubs cast (think of Volkey, Ping, etc)?

 

From Tom Wishon,

"If you have a cast iron and a forged iron of exactly the same shape and weight distribution design, the same loft, the same center of gravity position in the two heads, and the heads are built with the same shaft, same length, same grip and same swingweight/MOI, hitting the same ball, the shots will fly identical distances."

 

That was not my quote so I think you should go find the actual poster and quote them, and edit the post. I prefer to not have others speak for me.

[1018CS]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

 

This is the most misunderstood "test" in the history of golf. The test was done by Ping fyi. They took identically designed STAINLESS STEEL heads and had one cast and one forged. They took them to 10 Tour players. Only Jeff Maggert said he felt a difference but he didnt know what it was. The FACT is that forged clubs feel softer because of the metal that is used in their construction. Other than Titleists larger CBs pretty much all Forged clubs are made from much softer carbon steel that is why there is such a difference in feel. The FACT is you cannot cast this Carbon Steel so you cannot make a cast club feel like a forged club unless you use stainless steel for both (which defeats the purpose entirely)

Now before you go telling me that I am wrong and you CAN cast carbon steel, witness vokey, cleveland etc with 8620, another FACT for you. 8620 is NOT carbon steel. It is a Steel Alloy. 8620 Carbon Steel is a made up golf marketing term. It does not exist. It does rust like normal carbon steel but that is pretty much all the have in common. It is just another way for the big companies marketing departments to trick you into buying clubs that are much cheaper for them to produce. The FACT is if you want the best feeling irons and wedges that you can get you have to go with a soft carbon steel forging.

[nyhacker]

My last comment on this thread:

 

Feel is mainly sound. Taste is mainly smell. Feel is perception. You can not argue that, it is how our brains work Take a forged club and hit a range rock. Take a cast and hit a balata. Which feels better? If you say the forged you are full of it. Like one other smart poster noted, which is softer the ball or a metal head traveling 100mph. Believe what you like, and play what "feels" best, just don't say that it is a fact that forged feels better, since that is a matter of how YOU perceive the world. Some things are just too minute for the human brain to pick up. Molecular structure of metal molecules is one of them.

[nukexbi]

That was not my quote so I think you should go find the actual poster and quote them, and edit the post. I prefer to not have others speak for me.

Sorry nyhacker. I deleted the wrong quote tag while making the post. It has been corrected.

[nyhacker]

Thank you

[muxi87]

You don't really consider the MacGregor M685s a true forged club do you?? 3-6 have that horrible feeling hollow "technology". Hopefully the new management will dump this japanese game improvement junk and return to real forgings.

 

Nah...the FORGED MacGregors just say FORGED on them for the looks :)

 

Give me a break man...MacGregor's forgings are some of the better ones around...in my opinion--which is what ALL of this is anyway!!!

[Solutions Etcetera]

The FACT is you cannot cast this Carbon Steel

I have no idea the accuracy of the info you present regarding the "test", but you are wrong about casting low carbon steels, or medium and high carbon steels for that matter. In fact, these are the most common types of steels used in castings, which contain only carbon as their principal alloying element.

 

I can go on to note that castings are inherently more isotropic structurally, meaning they are MORE uniform in all directions as opposed to forgings, whose properties vary depending on the direction of the working. Castings also support much better weld integrity than forgings. And while it is true the "direction of the working" in forgings can result in greater longitudinal strength (this is why some forgings are preferred for tool steel), their ductility and impact properties are comparable with castings.

 

So, if you plan to use your "blades" as jaws in a gear puller, by all means go with forged.

 

But, like NYHacker, I think I am pretty much done with this thread as well as it seems pointless to argue the facts with some of the die hard here that seem to make them up as they go.

 

Manufacturers will continue to offer forged irons (in simpler designs, as more intricate designs are much better off cast - and they know this), and get a premium for them as long as customers buy into the myth that they are superior. But it is the design and materials that make up 100% of what you feel, not the fabrication process. Best to judge the club as a whole.

 

Regards,

 

-ss

[Donnyj]

I've owned Mp 33's 37's, 30's 32's, all good clubs (I personally didn't like the mp 30's) I presently have Miura limited edition baby blades these produce a much more solid hit on off centre hits so much so that the sweet spot appears to be far larger than it obviously is this means that although they are tiny blades they are very easy to hit.

[1018CS]

The FACT is you cannot cast this Carbon Steel

I have no idea the accuracy of the info you present regarding the "test", but you are wrong about casting low carbon steels, or medium and high carbon steels for that matter. In fact, these are the most common types of steels used in castings, which contain only carbon as their principal alloying element.

 

I can go on to note that castings are inherently more isotropic structurally, meaning they are MORE uniform in all directions as opposed to forgings, whose properties vary depending on the direction of the working. Castings also support much better weld integrity than forgings. And while it is true the "direction of the working" in forgings can result in greater longitudinal strength (this is why some forgings are preferred for tool steel), their ductility and impact properties are comparable with castings.

 

So, if you plan to use your "blades" as jaws in a gear puller, by all means go with forged.

 

But, like NYHacker, I think I am pretty much done with this thread as well as it seems pointless to argue the facts with some of the die hard here that seem to make them up as they go.

 

Manufacturers will continue to offer forged irons (in simpler designs, as more intricate designs are much better off cast - and they know this), and get a premium for them as long as customers buy into the myth that they are superior. But it is the design and materials that make up 100% of what you feel, not the fabrication process. Best to judge the club as a whole.

 

Regards,

 

-ss

 

Not sure where you are getting your info but you are wrong. Witness the fact that no company has ever offered a 1020, 1025, 1030 carbon steel casting. You dont think they have tried to make that work? The same soft metals as forged but at a MUCH lower manufacturing cost? They have tried and it does not work. VERY high rejection rates. This comes DIRECTLY from the mouths of major casting golf club producers in China. 8620 Steel Alloy is as close as you can get and it is only considered close because it rusts and therefor can be simular in apprearance.

[SwingMan]

How did this thread degenerate into a generic forged v. cast debate when it's about "what's so great about Miura?"

[jedimater]

How in the heck do the pro's even hit the irons Cast or FOrged if they are blind folded? I would think if I could hit a set of irons while being blind folded I would be able to tell the difference betweena forged and cast club.

[ApexGrind]

How did this thread degenerate into a generic forged v. cast debate when it's about "what's so great about Miura?"

 

I think maybe that's what's so great about Miura. They're forged so well?