if miura is so great.....

[jzrad]

...then why do these irons get no love....?

 

i've yet to see any top players use them......i've played in a ton of amatuer events and have seen only a hadful of players use them.......i know the argument about "its a small compnay and they dont pay players etc..."

 

i guess my question is, if they are the ultimate forging....wouldn't at least top amatuers play them more....????

 

 

just wondering......

[emc]

Most top amateurs will get their Titleist/TaylorMade/whatever stuff for free when playing in stuff like US Amateur etc.

[TigerEarl]

A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

 

I just quote from another blog:

 

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."

[Putt4doh]

A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

 

I just quote from another blog:

 

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."

 

 

Thanks for a terrific post. I've hardly ever heard it explained better.....

[hayam]

I think, its all marketing, preferences and perceptions. One say welded hosel rocks, another say One piece design rocks. Just a piece of metal and the design is much more important.Scratch Golf have much much better versatility, bringing High End- Custom Designs to Average Joes, I think they would still rocks even if their wedges are Cast iron purely from their designs.

 

I remember, Scratch got banned by the other site, and the other site are Hyping the Miura. Why? because they sell them. thats why. They would hype anything they can sell and make it untouchables by average joes. Exclusive . Well, they did a good job really. I learn a lot from them to apply in my own little business and see through BS better.

 

 

Ping is very successful with their cast, so does callaway. Callaway's forged + wedge did not catch on. Plastic inserts putters are used by more people . Quality, Exotics are just way over hyped. Taylor made uses Cast in their TP line. Gasp, TOUR CAST... thats so exclusive ..

 

So, the answer I think is.. its all marketing.. and preferences. If you enjoy it.. use it. If you can get money using it. use it . If you like Exclusive stuff. Use it .

 

My 2 cents.

[psygolf]

Don't spend your 2 cents unless you've tried what you're commenting on...there's rarely anyone I've come across who'll say Miuras don't feel better/different than other forgings. Whether or not they are worth the money -that's more the subjective issue & decision one has to make.

[bogeypro]

A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

 

I just quote from another blog:

 

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."

 

 

Thanks for a terrific post. I've hardly ever heard it explained better.....

 

 

BS!! did you get that quote from BS g?

[nyhacker]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

[Putt4doh]

A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

 

I just quote from another blog:

 

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."

 

 

Thanks for a terrific post. I've hardly ever heard it explained better.....

 

 

BS!! did you get that quote from BS g?

 

 

 

 

After having torn apart and rebuilt numerous sets of Japan-forged irons (Srixon, Tourstage, Miura, etc) I can tell you that weight tolerance are SPOT-ON. No need for lead weights to get the SW correct. In addition, if the spec states it's 62.5 lie---it is. It's for this reason many companies contract with JDM houses (Endo, Miura, Kyoe (sp)) to forge irons in limited quantities for their tour players.

 

Many members here can confirm that Nke, TM and others have 'tour' sets of irons that were NOT forged in the mass-forging plants of the retail versions. Does this make all tour-issue stuff better? Nope. But if you know what your buying (and your source), there can certainly be a difference between tour and retail. Sorry, that's just a fact, so please don't argue the merits of Tour vs Retail---there's plenty of threads, posts, time, and effort already dedicated to that topic.

 

Hang out here a GolfWRX for awhile (avoiding some other sites that hype products) and I'm sure you'll learn a bunch. Glad to have you here!

[oneaugusta]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

I would like to be one of those testers. I would be able to tell the difference between a mizuno forged and a callaway X-20 I guarantee it. I have heard the article and I'm guessing they had never hit forged before. I played with Ping irons for the first 10 years I played golf they offer some feedback but nothing compared to a quality forged iron when you hit the sweetspot. there are also other reasons most pros and some others prefer forged besides the feel. Cast clubs are molten steel poured into a casting, there are some small air pockets that naturally occur with this. A good friend of mine had a set of tommy armour 845's and if he hit the pw in a certain spot on the face it would fly 20 yards farther than it should. Im sure this was an air pocket in the casting. With forged you get alot more consistency on yardage, that is a fact. It kills me to see some company's sell their TP line of irons for high$$ when they are cast heads from China which costs next to nothing to produce. Just my 2 cents

[nyhacker]

You are basing your opinion on older cast clubs not the highly soft cast modern clubs. I am highly skeptical that you could tell the difference when numerous pros could not. Also you have to compare similar designs. The design i.e. blade vs cavity has much more to do with feel than whether it was cast or forged. I would put my money on a blind test of a forged blade and cast blade with the same exact specs you couldnt tell the difference.

[6t4gt0]

I used to play Yonex ADX Tour irons (forged) went to Adams ATour Reds (cast) and there is a difference. The Yonex when hit on the sweet spot feels like butter the Adams although nice has a slightly harsher feel. The quality of cast has definitely improved but if you've played forged you will be able to tell the difference.

[nyhacker]

I have played forged and did for years. Titleists, and most recently x-tours. My point is that you and I percieve a difference in feel when you know there is a difference. If you were to do a blind test I don't think it would be the case, as the study indicated. The majority of people, myslef included have never done such a blind test, so in my mind a pure shot with a forged club probalby feels better since I am expecting such a result. There are numerous studies in many fields of psychology and neuroscience which support this. I like the feel of forged blades but I am also willing to accept that it is mental.

[Solutions Etcetera]

I like the feel of forged blades but I am also willing to accept that it is mental.

I think that is one of the most honest and open minded remarks I have seen posted on this site from a forged fan. Kudos.

 

Not to hijack this thread but the psychology of golf is one of the things about it that fascinates me. Had a lesson yesterday... previously I was working on some drills he gave me and found myself squirting it right (I mean at about a 45 degree angle), which I had NEVER done before.

 

Tried to show him yesterday... couldn't get it to go right even if I tried. (c;

[SwingMan]

A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

 

I just quote from another blog:

 

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."

 

 

Thanks for a terrific post. I've hardly ever heard it explained better.....

 

 

BS!! did you get that quote from BS g?

 

Are we all out of date??

 

Miura no longer forges for OEMS -- they've gone with their own brand. At least that is the official word.

 

bsg doesn't tout Miuras any longer -- and never have touted the Miura Brand of Irons -- they have touted the Miura forged TM irons. bsg now touts Callaway woods and irons - I guess Callaway is their tour junkie now.

 

Yes -- Miura is tight to specs and is a great choice. I think you don't see more people playing them because they are $150/club (at least) and they have a low profile -- website and clubmakers sell them.

 

Having said that, you need to try their woods - I got my hands on some when in California at a shop demo -- and they are sweet.

[nyhacker]

Thank you Solutions for the kind words.

[RacineBoxer]

I could care less about forged or cast for my game. I assumed for years that cleveland wedges were all forged since they were by far the most widely used on tour. It was strange to see that most were cast. If you were super-duper anal about distance control a sand wedge would be the place to be most picky - yet most are cast. Go figure.

[Solutions Etcetera]

Years ago (many), forged clubs were indeed more consistant than most castings. But in recent years technology in castings has actually caught up with and surpassed the consistency of forgings.

 

This is not only in club heads but firearm parts, engine parts, etc.

[joeb]

I wonder if all the tour vokeys are forged, or are they cast like the vokeys off the shelf??

[weissmanjeff]

I wonder if all the tour vokeys are forged, or are they cast like the vokeys off the shelf??

 

No Vokey wedge is forged. All are cast. I think that the metal mix is even the same for tour. Differences:

- grinding

- loft and lie checked and correct (I've seen retail Vokey 56* that had 60* of loft)

- more aggressive groove profile

 

Miura is by far one of the best forgers. But there are so many great Japanese clubs that nobody is playing (Tourstage, PRGR, Fourteen, Yonex, Gold's Factory, etc.). Miura gets mentioned because they used to make clubs for other OEM's so they have some pre-existing notoriety.

 

Forged vs. Cast, Retail vs. Tour, it's a dead horse any way you look at it.

[ifixclubs]

i've tried practically every kind of iron out there(what can i say,im a club whore) and i finally settled on the miura cb-202's...to me the miura's felt the best out of all the irons i've tried...again this could be subjective because of my previous experience with irons forged by them, but as far as i can tell i havent hit a better feeling iron than theirs...one of the best tests ive ever done was put ear plugs on and hit a cast iron and a forged iron...couldnt really tell the difference...but when i hit the miuras i definetely felt the difference...incase some of you dont know...feel in golf is mainly sound(thats why i put ear plugs on)...ahhhhh...miura's ;)

[RacineBoxer]

I wonder if all the tour vokeys are forged, or are they cast like the vokeys off the shelf??

 

No Vokey wedge is forged. All are cast. I think that the metal mix is even the same for tour. Differences:

- grinding

- loft and lie checked and correct (I've seen retail Vokey 56* that had 60* of loft)

-

 

 

How the hell does that happen? Not calling you a liar, but that is wayyy off. You can pick 56 and 60 degree wedges off the rack and see the difference in loft. I can't see a club going out of a titleist facility that far off (I couldn't even see a $180 set of dunlops being that far off). I wonder what the quality standards are for loft tolerance? If I had to guess I'd say something around 0.1 or 0.5*. Any chance the club you saw had either been bent purposely, or accidently, for it to be that far off?

[sandy]

I love all the comments about when Miura says the loft, lie etc. is XXX they are spot on. Anyone that has spent anytime building clubs know this isn't possible to confirm unless you have your equipment calibrated by Miura and use the same equipment. I've rarely had anyone's set including Miuras stuff that agrees with the specs they publish (or send with the clubs) when I check it on my equipment or others equipment. Yes they are much closer in weight tolerances than standard OEM (but you are paying for it also). The typical good golfer can't tell the difference anyway until they have a 6+ gram lead plug. I've found nobody that could tell a Mizuno, Titleist, TM iron had any weight adjustments in them until they got in the 6-8 gram range and that was usually in Mizunos. I've also had sets of Taylor Mades and MacGregors that were forged by Miura (PCB Tours and X-300s) that had weight adjustments in the shafts or hosels---so the specs that they forge to for the OEMs aren't necessarily the same as their own house brand.

 

 

 

I'm amazed that we haven't had the required insert that Tiger's irons are forged, ground, and finished by Miura-San himself in this thread.

[MidwestPro22]

Forged vs. Cast, Retail vs. Tour, it's a dead horse any way you look at it.

 

Ding! We have a winner folks.

[SwingMan]

Heck, I thought Tiger forged his own irons.........

 

 

 

Ya know, he is a hands-on type......

[muxi87]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

 

 

I've played/hit every brand of cast irons out there and was previously of the above thinking--i.e. "how can they be that much better"...but BELIEVE ME, there's A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!

 

I played the Forged 300 from Taylor Made, and they felt good--there was a nice difference that I could see from my Ping i3 blades...but now, after a 3 year run with the Ping s59 irons, I'm swinging the MacGregor FORGED M685, and the feel is FREAKIN INCREDIBLE!!! Granted I'm a much better ball striker than when I played the 300s or some of my previous irons, but from the FIRST BALL I STRUCK with the M685 vs. the s59, I've been COMPLETELY SOLD on forged!!!

[overtona]

Folks this is a great post.

Aren't we talking about a piece of metal? Anyway most if not all MAJOR OEMS will eventually go to cast. It's just cheaper to produce. It's all about profit margin. Forging is a lost art (dead in my opinion). You will NOT see any major technological advances in forging metal. Cast is were it's at and will be until something else better comes along.

[KF_Tower]

Heck, I thought Tiger forged his own irons.........

 

 

 

Ya know, he is a hands-on type......

 

I thought you were going to tell us he could walk on water while forging his own irons. :)

 

Folks this is a great post.

Aren't we talking about a piece of metal? Anyway most if not all MAJOR OEMS will eventually go to cast. It's just cheaper to produce. It's all about profit margin. Forging is a lost art (dead in my opinion). You will NOT see any major technological advances in forging metal. Cast is were it's at and will be until something else better comes along.

 

UMMMMM, No.

Most good players I've run into will not touch a cast club; they are too inconsistent. I had one set of cast irons and they were from the Titleist tour dept back in the early 90s. Loved em, but I switched within the year.

[cuteo100]

The same arguments for forged vs. cast irons can be said for Walmart's vs. Tour's clubs. Choose the weapons of your choice , gents!

[juststeve]

The reason for double blind testing is that people cannot make accurate judgments about subjective qualities, like feel, if they know which club is forged and which is cast. They think they can but they can't. In double blind tests the best golfers in the world do no better than chance in distinguishing cast from forged. It seems that only people on equipment forums have that ability, or think they do.

 

Steve