if miura is so great.....

[SwingMan]

How did this thread degenerate into a generic forged v. cast debate when it's about "what's so great about Miura?"

 

I think maybe that's what's so great about Miura. They're forged so well?

 

They have tight tolerances. But like any iron, you've got to give them a whirl to appreciate them..... or not.

[jedimater]

Having never hit them or ever hope to since I am left handed, and a used set will never come for sale and a new set is way way gonna put me sleeping in the dog house, I woudl imagine that any pro could tell the difference between a miura forged blade and an off the rack cast blade. same goes for a Miura forged CB and a Cast CB.

 

Whats so great. He is a master forger andmakes great clubs for great players. Junk players buy the used ones, and rich hacks buy them to be cool. Either way they are better just get over it and move on. :)

[gompers]

http://www.peerlesshardware.com/specs.asp

 

This company appears to cast 1010-1040 steel. It's certainly possible to cast high carbon steel.

 

more about investment casting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_Casting

 

I highly doubt there is any difference between identical clubs with identical steel, one cast and one forged.

 

You might be able to convince me that there's a difference between high-carbon steel and low-carbon steel, but even that I have a hard time believing.

 

 

 

Anyway, the whole debate is pretty much

[1018CS]

I should have been more clear. You CAN cast carbon steel but it is not practical for use in golf clubs due to the EXTREMELY high reject rates. This may not be the case with screws, bolts etc. There is a reason it has not been done successfully by any major club company or manufacturing facility. The guys I talked to in China have tried to make this work believe me. First one to get it right gets a TON of business but it has not happened and wont anytime soon. Technically you can cast anything that you can melt that will then reform when it cools. (wax, chocolate, butter, lead, pretty much anything)

[KDMullins]

I should have been more clear. You CAN cast carbon steel but it is not practical for use in golf clubs due to the EXTREMELY high reject rates. This may not be the case with screws, bolts etc. There is a reason it has not been done successfully by any major club company or manufacturing facility. The guys I talked to in China have tried to make this work believe me. First one to get it right gets a TON of business but it has not happened and wont anytime soon. Technically you can cast anything that you can melt that will then reform when it cools. (wax, chocolate, butter, lead, pretty much anything)

 

Thanks. I was trying to figure out what all these metallurgy stats for boats & gun parts had to do with golf clubs.

[masuwari]

How in the heck do the pro's even hit the irons Cast or FOrged if they are blind folded? I would think if I could hit a set of irons while being blind folded I would be able to tell the difference betweena forged and cast club.

I don't think the players hit any of the irons blind folded. A double blind test in this context simply means that the subjects being tested and the people collecting the data did not know which clubs were forged and which were cast. Both types of iron heads probably looked exactly the same and were probably marked in a discrete fashion to be identified by the statistician analyzing the data. This experimental method aims to reduce bias in the results.

[pocketfulladoubles]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

 

 

If there is no real difference but one thinks that there is, this may be all that is needed - a supportive confidence builder.

[tigerlance240]

Actually, the comment that many companies use top forging companies such as miura to produce their tour clubs is not BS, as can be seen by these Miura forged Cleveland wedges:

 

[bma725]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

 

This is the most misunderstood "test" in the history of golf. The test was done by Ping fyi. They took identically designed STAINLESS STEEL heads and had one cast and one forged. They took them to 10 Tour players. Only Jeff Maggert said he felt a difference but he didnt know what it was. The FACT is that forged clubs feel softer because of the metal that is used in their construction. Other than Titleists larger CBs pretty much all Forged clubs are made from much softer carbon steel that is why there is such a difference in feel. The FACT is you cannot cast this Carbon Steel so you cannot make a cast club feel like a forged club unless you use stainless steel for both (which defeats the purpose entirely)

 

Wrong. No one was referencing the Ping test. The original test was done by Golf Digest in the 1970s and had guys like Floyd, Geiberger, Green etc. Ping came along about a decade later and did it again, and they continue to do it with their staff pros every few years. They did it in the ISI era, they did it again for the S58s etc. Every few years they go out and show their players that it doesn't really matter how the clubs are made.

[1018CS]

After reading some some articels that say in blind test pros couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged I am not sure if there is a real difference. I assume that much of it is in one's mind. IF you think you are playing the ultimate in forged irons you are going to percieve them that way, which is fine since the mental aspect of golf is so important. Perception is just as important as reality, hence peoples love for high end forged irons. I will not argue with the fact that miuras have very accurate machining and quality which is a separate issue.

 

This is the most misunderstood "test" in the history of golf. The test was done by Ping fyi. They took identically designed STAINLESS STEEL heads and had one cast and one forged. They took them to 10 Tour players. Only Jeff Maggert said he felt a difference but he didnt know what it was. The FACT is that forged clubs feel softer because of the metal that is used in their construction. Other than Titleists larger CBs pretty much all Forged clubs are made from much softer carbon steel that is why there is such a difference in feel. The FACT is you cannot cast this Carbon Steel so you cannot make a cast club feel like a forged club unless you use stainless steel for both (which defeats the purpose entirely)

 

Wrong. No one was referencing the Ping test. The original test was done by Golf Digest in the 1970s and had guys like Floyd, Geiberger, Green etc. Ping came along about a decade later and did it again, and they continue to do it with their staff pros every few years. They did it in the ISI era, they did it again for the S58s etc. Every few years they go out and show their players that it doesn't really matter how the clubs are made.

 

Yup its all about the metal used and you cannot use soft metals for casting golf clubs like you can with a forging.

[classick]

Actually, the comment that many companies use top forging companies such as miura to produce their tour clubs is not BS, as can be seen by these Miura forged Cleveland wedges:

 

 

Those are for the Japaneses markets. There are no clubs forged by Miura that are meant for the US market anymore. Japan, on the other hand, is willing to pay the higher price for the higher quality forgings.

[Milosh]

What about all the forged Mizuno products (with the exception of the MX-25)?

 

Apparently the GD testers can tell the difference.

[Viking Golfer]

A blind test can not be done, because all the soft great feeling forged clubs are made from 1025 carbon steel, 1020 carbon steel and softer. I have yet to see a cast club head made from 1025 carbon steel or softer than this. If you can't make this, you really can never make this fair blind test that so many speaks of.

[Viking Golfer]

Regarding Miura. This brand has only this status here in Europe and the US. In Asia, Miura is just regarded as another great maker of forged irons, but some guys look down on Miura, because he uses spin welded hosels 2 piece forgings process.

[Sean2]

I know this is probably sacriligeous but I have four wedges and they are all cast, not forged. I tried the forged ones but did not care for them as much. I based my findings on results, not what someone else plays. I practice my short game A LOT and find, for me, I am much more consistent with my cast wedges. Just my opinion.

 

I know how far I hit each wedge with each kind of swing. I set the pins on the practice green at 10 yard intervals all the way to 80 yards and hit each wedge with a one-quarter, half, and three-quarter swing, out of the rough, off a tight lie, bunkers, etc. When I have a certain yardage to the pin, and depending on the lie, I know what wedge to use, what kind of swing, and how far it will go. I don't hit a lot of greens in regulation, but average around 30 putts a round...had 22 putts yesterday with two hole outs from off the green.

 

Bottom line isn't what's better, forged or cast. The bottom line is what works best for you. If it's forged, great, if not that's fine too.

[goinglong]

You can argue all day long about forged feels great and cast feels like cast or you cant tell the differance between the two. Its not about what feels or sounds like what!!! I can hit 10 shots with a forged iron and they are 5 feet left or right of each other. I can hit 10 shots with cast and there are 2 long, 2 short and the rest within a wider circle!! Thats why players like Tiger play forged. They have the distance dialed in !!! Thats what playing forged is all about!!! I could care less what feels like what, but I can tell you where that forged iron shot will end up!!! Thank you very much!!

[oregongolf]

You can argue all day long about forged feels great and cast feels like cast or you cant tell the differance between the two. Its not about what feels or sounds like what!!! I can hit 10 shots with a forged iron and they are 5 feet left or right of each other. I can hit 10 shots with cast and there are 2 long, 2 short and the rest within a wider circle!! Thats why players like Tiger play forged. They have the distance dialed in !!! Thats what playing forged is all about!!! I could care less what feels like what, but I can tell you where that forged iron shot will end up!!! Thank you very much!!

hm.

 

never made that comparison... i would chalk that up to being a good ball striker rather than the club.

 

i'd take your game all day long though. 10 balls... all within 10 feet of each other at the same distance.

 

quite impressive :man_in_love:

[pitchmaster1224]

After having torn apart and rebuilt numerous sets of Japan-forged irons (Srixon, Tourstage, Miura, etc) I can tell you that weight tolerance are SPOT-ON. No need for lead weights to get the SW correct. In addition, if the spec states it's 62.5 lie---it is. It's for this reason many companies contract with JDM houses (Endo, Miura, Kyoe (sp)) to forge irons in limited quantities for their tour players.

 

have to agree, my retail 2005 tm cb tp2's were all over the place in terms of length, sw, lie, loft, etc. I just recently purchased a set of Macgregor forged pcb tour's that are miura forged and the sw's were all spot on, along with lies and lofts. It was great not having to put lead tape on since they were right where i wanted them.

[SwingBlade]

I currently own 690.mb's, 690.cb's, 2 sets of TM TP's, three sets of Mizunos (33,32,67), and a set of Miura cb 201's. I have also hit almost everything out there including a couple sets of Tour TM Miura's. It is not even debatable that the others hold a candle to the Miura's in terms of feel. Best clubs in the world? No, I don't believe that because everyone needs something different. However, anyone who says they aren't the best feeling forged iron sets hasn't really hit them, has another agenda, or doesn't play high end blades/cb's frequently enough to be able feel the subtle but very real differences. Period.

 

As far as cast versus forged - you've got to be kidding. One may like the real world results of some cast clubs better than the results of some forged clubs but a cast club doesn't feel remotely the same as a high end forging. Period. It's a different science.

[Hifade]

Agreed.....with one caviat. If you are consistently striking the ball at or near the center, the feel of a fine forged iron is incredible. However, if you are not, don't bother with them because you won't benefit from the feel at all. Actually, they'll kinda sting but so will the cast. Bottomline is....hit it flush and you can tell a huge difference.

 

As far as cast versus forged - you've got to be kidding. One may like the real world results of some cast clubs better than the results of some forged clubs but a cast club doesn't feel remotely the same as a high end forging. Period. It's a different science.

[SwingBlade]

Caveat accepted with full concurrence. :man_in_love:

 

Agreed.....with one caviat. If you are consistently striking the ball at or near the center, the feel of a fine forged iron is incredible. However, if you are not, don't bother with them because you won't benefit from the feel at all. Actually, they'll kinda sting but so will the cast. Bottomline is....hit it flush and you can tell a huge difference.

 

As far as cast versus forged - you've got to be kidding. One may like the real world results of some cast clubs better than the results of some forged clubs but a cast club doesn't feel remotely the same as a high end forging. Period. It's a different science.

[hypergolf]

Miura clubs are very very very rarely used here in Asia... Maybe less than 1% of the golf population use that... Including Asian tour players... He made a smart move to market to US and European countries where he would be more in demand due to the mentality that Japanese forging (Miura, Endo etc) are excellent. Most golfers in Asia prefer Honma and Fourteen when it comes to upscale, expensive clubs... Otherwise, usuals go with the regular OEM (Mizuno, Callaway, Taylormade, Titleist, Ping are the most popular ones)

[ty cheek]

Spot on.

 

Ty

[texashigh10]

[quote name='TigerEarl' post='691146' date='Aug 23 2007, 04:06 AM']A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

I just quote from another blog:

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."[/quote]


Good explanation, but some companies have all their irons forged by a premium forging house, mainly Endo. For example, a good friend used to work at Nike and he explained that all their forged clubs are forged by Endo. The difference between their tour irons and production is they recieve tour heads unfinished, so they can grind them to the Tour pro's specs and put a special finish on them if they request.

[dalehead]

[quote name='texashigh10' post='836919' date='Dec 25 2007, 10:28 PM'][quote name='TigerEarl' post='691146' date='Aug 23 2007, 04:06 AM']A LOT OF TOUR PLAYERS irons were forged by miura - also they might be labeled by a "top brand"

I just quote from another blog:

"In terms of Tour irons, most manufacturers will have their heads forged by one of the premium facilities like Miura or Endo for the Tour product, but go with a large mass forging facility in China for the production heads. TaylorMade for example uses Miura to forge the Tour sets, Titleist uses Endo, and Nike has used both in the production of the Tour heads. Tour irons are generally dead on spec in terms of weight. You will not get a Tour set of irons with swingweights all over the board like you do with retail sets. This is because of the quality control at the high grade forging houses. These heads are also nearly free of imperfections both external and internal, and generally have an entirely different feel than their retail counterparts. These forgings are, obviously, higher quality accross the board, and MUCH more expensive to have done than the retail line."[/quote]


Good explanation, but some companies have all their irons forged by a premium forging house, mainly Endo. For example, my swing instructor used to work at Nike and he explained that all their forged clubs are forged by Endo. The difference between their tour irons and production is they recieve tour heads unfinished, so they can grind them to the Tour pro's specs and put a special finish on them if they request.
[/quote]
They are? Thanks for the info. My three sets of forged Nike Pro Combos just went up in value.

[easyyy]

Tom Stites from Nike Golf, Benoit Vincent of TaylorMade, Reid Gorman of MacGregor are "Currently" using all the same heads for irons in their tour sets as the retail sets. All they are doing is shipping the raw unfinished blanks to the US and finishing them here in some cases. Tom said then he puts the grinds and finishes on in Texas to fit the individual players needs.

I thought it was interesting to hear they did this. Each one of them will either "pull heads from the retail shelves" or ship in blanks from the forging house and finish the sets (grinds and finish) here.


As for Miura... Why arnt they getting the love in the amateur circles? Maybe it is the multi million dollar sales and marketing campaigns that all the "Major OEM's" present every day. When I open up a Golf Digest I don't see Miura anywhere.

Also... As for ultimate forging??? There are debates and opinions here. I don't claim to know and honestly cant tell the difference to much. They all fell good once there is some mass behind the sweet spot. However there are many highly respected engineers that don't care the "spin welding" of the hosel to the head.

They respect Mr. Miura and believe he makes excellent forgings but after talking to many insiders they dont favor the spin welding. Could be bias since it is a proprietary process. Dont shot the massager, just telling you what I have heard in my travels talking to folks.

[8thehardway]

Because the molecules are denser, a forged iron will sink faster when throw into a nearby lake.

[DemolitionMan]

Joe Kwok can back me up on this. In my seriously club ho days, which was quite awhile ago in golf years, I probably owned/hit more "Miura" sets than just about anyone here. I am talking about irons from other OEMs forged by Miura (TM, Nike, etc...), irons from Miura Japan with the Japanese branding, and Miuras made for the North American market. Sure, some of them were "soft" and felt great. But so do many other forged clubs. A pure hit on my Cally X-Forged give me the same sensation as a pure hit did on Titleist 681s, and Miura MB5002s, as well as other models. I would put some Miura irons among the top 5, but with not much difference at all among the top 5.

But here is a news flash for some of you. Miura irons can feel like sh*t just as bad as other irons. Miura has forged several models of irons that were plated differently and have a harsh, clicky feel. You can take the soft feel right out of a forged steel. It's not hard. Miura has done it, Mizuno has done it. Hit some Miuras plated in nickel, they suck. Hit some Mizunos form the MP-9 or previous days, they suck too.

As Easyyy pointed out, Miura is not played by more golfers because they do not have the marketing budget to compete. And the bottom line is, if you cannot spend the marketing dollars then you better have a product so darn good, no one can overlook it because the word of mouth deafens any marketing. But that's not Miura. If some knucklehead Japanese or Chinese Billionaire (and there is a lot of them) bought into Miura and tried to pimp it with a big marketing budget, they would fall flat on their face simply because their club (no club for that matter) cannot live up to the hype. The "hands of God" nonsense can work in small markets as a niche player, but try to put that in a full page ad in Golf Magazine and you will get laughed out of the store.

As pointed out, Miura forges a great club, but the best? No.

[mauiatheart]

I think marketing has a lot to do with the lack of popularity of Miura clubs. But I also think it has a lot to do with the price. You can pick up a set of namebrand OEM clubs at significantly lower prices than a set of Miuras. I can pick up a set of Titleist or Callaway's that have been discounted from their suggested retail value at the big box golf stores 6-8 months after thier initial release, which could be as much as $200-$300 in savings. Where I have yet to see a set of Miuras drop that much. Again, this maybe due to the marketing thing, but price alone makes the Miura irons a dream set, not an affordable set, to many of those that know the brand.

I can definitely feel the difference between a Miura forging and another club. I recently used my backup set, Mizuno MP33, and could feel a significant difference. The Mizunos didn't have the soft feeling that I got from either of the Miura forged sets that I have used recently.

[pjccjp]

[quote name='DemolitionMan' post='837295' date='Dec 26 2007, 01:15 PM']Joe Kwok can back me up on this. In my seriously club ho days, which was quite awhile ago in golf years, I probably owned/hit more "Miura" sets than just about anyone here. I am talking about irons from other OEMs forged by Miura (TM, Nike, etc...), irons from Miura Japan with the Japanese branding, and Miuras made for the North American market. Sure, some of them were "soft" and felt great. But so do many other forged clubs. A pure hit on my Cally X-Forged give me the same sensation as a pure hit did on Titleist 681s, and Miura MB5002s, as well as other models. I would put some Miura irons among the top 5, but with not much difference at all among the top 5.

But here is a news flash for some of you. Miura irons can feel like sh*t just as bad as other irons. Miura has forged several models of irons that were plated differently and have a harsh, clicky feel. You can take the soft feel right out of a forged steel. It's not hard. Miura has done it, Mizuno has done it. Hit some Miuras plated in nickel, they suck. Hit some Mizunos form the MP-9 or previous days, they suck too.

As Easyyy pointed out, Miura is not played by more golfers because they do not have the marketing budget to compete. And the bottom line is, if you cannot spend the marketing dollars then you better have a product so darn good, no one can overlook it because the word of mouth deafens any marketing. But that's not Miura. If some knucklehead Japanese or Chinese Billionaire (and there is a lot of them) bought into Miura and tried to pimp it with a big marketing budget, they would fall flat on their face simply because their club (no club for that matter) cannot live up to the hype. The "hands of God" nonsense can work in small markets as a niche player, but try to put that in a full page ad in Golf Magazine and you will get laughed out of the store.

As pointed out, Miura forges a great club, but the best? No.

.[/quote]

All I know for sure is if you can find irons produced to "spec" (headweight, etc.) better than Muira let me know. They are spot on. I can't tell you how many mizuno's I've pulled and had a ton of dust fall out of the hosel. They kept the lead tape OEMs in business. Are the Muiuras for everyone - hell no. But there is no doubt in my mind there is daylight between the quality of these and most other irons we amateurs can get our hand on