Diagram #2 17.1d: Relief for ball in red penalty area

[HatsForBats]

Thinking about this from the perspective of a par 3 with water adjacent to the green does it seem to make more sense if they would allow a player to drop in the same penalty area rather than disallowing it? In the crude drawing below it would allow a player to drop on the green side of the water everytime (denoted by blue X in crude drawing) **IF** their ball last crossed the hazard on that side of the water.

 

Maybe there is a good reason to not allow dropping in the same penalty area that I am missing?

 

 

Crude Drawing:

 

[Argonne69]

I'm not following you. If the penalty area is staked red, then one is allowed to drop on the green side if the ball rolled back into the penalty area. Most holes like that have yellow lines, though.

[lookylookitzadam]

Forced carries such as what you depicted will normally be marked as yellow. If you were approaching from the side or something after a bad first shot there is a possibility that there may be a red penalty area that you have to carry. If that is the case and you hit land on the green-side but it somehow ends up in the water, then you are permitted to drop on that side.

[Stuart_G]

> @Argonne69 said:

> I'm not following you. If the penalty area is staked red, **then one is allowed to drop on the green side if the ball rolled back into the penalty area**. Most holes like that have yellow lines, though.

 

That's only if there is a point within the 2 club lengths of the crossing point that is also not closer to the hole. Usually that's possible but not always. And based on the diagram, that doesn't seem to be true in the OP's case.

 

I could be wrong, but I think the op is asking to be able to drop within the hazard bounds in that particular case.

 

I'm guessing the answer is that if you try and drop outside the hazard and the ball rolls into the hazard, the rules want to allow you to re-drop the ball again outside. If it's ok to play from within the hazard bounds, then there would be no reason to allow a re-drop.

[HatsForBats]

> @Stuart_G said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > I'm not following you. If the penalty area is staked red, **then one is allowed to drop on the green side if the ball rolled back into the penalty area**. Most holes like that have yellow lines, though.

>

> That's only if there is a point within the 2 club lengths of the crossing point that is also not closer to the hole. Usually that's possible but not always. And based on the diagram, that doesn't seem to be true in the OP's case.

 

Correct. That is what I was trying to illustrate with my crude drawing. Allowing a player to drop inside the same penatly area would always ensure there was a point no closer to the hole for a player to drop **IF** they crossed the penalty area line and rolled back in.

 

 

[PappyVanWinkle53]

I had a very similar situation to this in a tournament I played on Saturday......it was a lateral hazard (red stakes) that ran down the side of the last 75 yards of the fairway and then next to and slightly in front of the green. Using your diagram as a reference, I was approaching from the bottom of your picture (versus the right side you show).....the ball went over the hazard, cleared the bottom portion of it and hit the fringe between the green and the water.....and then rolled back into the water. My playing partners and I agreed the correct play was from where the ball crossed back into the hazard, which was on the green side.

[Argonne69]

I just don't see them changing the rules to allow a drop within a penalty area. It's called "relief" for a reason. In this example if one couldn't find a spot outside the PA on the greenside that wasn't closer to the hole, then back-of-the-line relief could be taken on the opposite side, or take the stroke and distance option.

[Newby]

1) The PA should be yellow

2) If the ball was playable, it could be played without restriction

3) If the ball was dropped nearer the hole the player has gained an unjustified benefit (of not having to **negotiate** the water successfully).

4) If the club wished, they could have provided a dropping zone that could negate that benefit.

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @lookylookitzadam said:

> Forced carries such as what you depicted will normally be marked as yellow. If you were approaching from the side or something after a bad first shot there is a possibility that there may be a red penalty area that you have to carry. If that is the case and you hit land on the green-side but it somehow ends up in the water, then you are permitted to drop on that side.

 

What-if case:

Let us assume the green in the crude drawing is a perfect circle with the hole as it’s center. The red penalty area surrounds the green as drawn, with say a 3’ buffer of fairway. As you said, he’s likely hit a first shot offline and is now coming over the red area perpendicular to the normal line of play. The ball carries the area and bounces back in. I don’t think he can drop on the green side because he cannot define a relief area that is not closer to the hole than the reference point, right?

 

To the OP: from the gospel of the rules of golf according to JTHF, I believe the reasoning is twofold:

 

1. Lets suppose the PA is deep/filled with water enough that no shot could ever be played from it. You drop your ball and it rolls into the area again, gone forever. But you have to play it now, so you have to drop again... keep those strokes coming!

 

2. In most of the relief rules, the player must take “complete relief” from whatever his hinderance. If you could play from the area, this is to prevent you from having your cake and eating it too. The rules allow special dispensation for balls in penalty areas, namely to remove the ball from the area. Not to let you move the ball within the area.

 

This is more a rules-philosophy question and open to interpretation. To that end I cannot answer with any good reason, and can only guess the logic of the rulemakers.

[HatsForBats]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> To the OP: from the gospel of the rules of golf according to JTHF, I believe the reasoning is twofold:

>

> 1. Lets suppose the PA is deep/filled with water enough that no shot could ever be played from it. You drop your ball and it rolls into the area again, gone forever. But you have to play it now, so you have to drop again... keep those strokes coming!

>

> 2. In most of the relief rules, the player must take “complete relief” from whatever his hinderance. If you could play from the area, this is to prevent you from having your cake and eating it too. The rules allow special dispensation for balls in penalty areas, namely to remove the ball from the area. Not to let you move the ball within the area.

>

> This is more a rules-philosophy question and open to interpretation. To that end I cannot answer with any good reason, and can only guess the logic of the rulemakers.

 

Hey, thanks for staying on topic rather than just posting what other options are available. I think your point # 1 above covers it. If you allow dropping within the penalty area then there is the, maybe distinct, possibility that the ball would end up back in the portion of the penalty area that the player is trying to escape (water). Thinking of it from the perspective of the hole I was referencing in my original post I thought 'hey wouldn't it be great if you could drop on the few feet of grassy area surrounding the pond rather than going back across the pond' assuming there was no place to drop that would be no closer to the hole on the green side. The issue is there is nothing distinguising the water from the boundaries of the penalty area as it is all a penalty area. If a drop on that grassy area rolls back in the pond then you don't get to redrop unless you take another penalty.

[larrybud]

I think the reason that you would make this yellow is because it would be too difficult to determine if there was a point which you could drop which wouldn't be closer to the hole. Depending on the pin position and the shape of the penalty area, one spot where it crossed might allow you to drop on the far side no closer to the hole, and other spot where it cross might now affording you the opportunity to drop without being closer to the hole.

 

Making it yellow insures that all players take the same drop for hitting into that specific penalty area.

[Argonne69]

I may be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a penalty area should only be marked with red stakes if it is difficult or impractical to find a spot on the opposite side of the hazard from which a player could drop. The default is yellow. In this example there is plenty of general area to the right of the PA, so yellow it is.

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > To the OP: from the gospel of the rules of golf according to JTHF, I believe the reasoning is twofold:

> >

> > 1. Lets suppose the PA is deep/filled with water enough that no shot could ever be played from it. You drop your ball and it rolls into the area again, gone forever. But you have to play it now, so you have to drop again... keep those strokes coming!

> >

> > 2. In most of the relief rules, the player must take “complete relief” from whatever his hinderance. If you could play from the area, this is to prevent you from having your cake and eating it too. The rules allow special dispensation for balls in penalty areas, namely to remove the ball from the area. Not to let you move the ball within the area.

> >

> > This is more a rules-philosophy question and open to interpretation. To that end I cannot answer with any good reason, and can only guess the logic of the rulemakers.

>

> Hey, thanks for staying on topic rather than just posting what other options are available. I think your point # 1 above covers it. If you allow dropping within the penalty area then there is the, maybe distinct, possibility that the ball would end up back in the portion of the penalty area that the player is trying to escape (water). Thinking of it from the perspective of the hole I was referencing in my original post I thought 'hey wouldn't it be great if you could drop on the few feet of grassy area surrounding the pond rather than going back across the pond' assuming there was no place to drop that would be no closer to the hole on the green side. The issue is there is nothing distinguising the water from the boundaries of the penalty area as it is all a penalty area. If a drop on that grassy area rolls back in the pond then you don't get to redrop unless you take another penalty.

 

Especially because rolling back in could catch someone who had no intention of dropping anywhere near the penalty area.

 

I also wanted to phrase point 2. a little better; the rule bodies are saying to you “you said this area was so impossible to play from (cart path, penalty area, next to a fence) you have asked for permission to violate the prime directive of play-as-lies. As such, the whole area/interference must be vacated, you don’t get to decide the bad condition is now suddenly tolerable just because your drop found a juicy lie next to it”

[Sawgrass]

> @Argonne69 said:

> I may be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a penalty area should only be marked with red stakes if it is difficult or impractical to find a spot on the opposite side of the hazard from which a player could drop. The default is yellow. In this example there is plenty of general area to the right of the PA, so yellow it is.

 

Unmarked water is red by default.

[Argonne69]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > I may be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a penalty area should only be marked with red stakes if it is difficult or impractical to find a spot on the opposite side of the hazard from which a player could drop. The default is yellow. In this example there is plenty of general area to the right of the PA, so yellow it is.

>

> Unmarked water is red by default.

 

Yes, but if it is going to be marked, isn't yellow the default unless there's a good reason not to?

 

[Newby]

Not quite. Committees are given the discretion to mark all penalty areas as red so that lateral relief is always allowed (but they may still mark penalty areas as yellow where they consider it appropriate).

[sui generis]

> @Argonne69 said:

> I may be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that a penalty area should only be marked with red stakes if it is difficult or impractical to find a spot on the opposite side of the hazard from which a player could drop. The default is yellow. In this example there is plenty of general area to the right of the PA, so yellow it is.

Old news, Argonne. In 2019 Committee Procedures tells us:

 

Whether to Mark a Penalty Area as Red or Yellow

 

Most penalty areas should be marked red to give players the additional option of lateral relief (see Rule 17.1d(3)). However, where part of the challenge of the hole is to carry over a penalty area such as a stream that crosses the front of the putting green and there is a good chance that a ball that carries over the stream could fall back into it, the Committee may decide to mark the penalty area as yellow. This ensures that a ball that lands on the far side of the penalty area before rolling back into the penalty area cannot be dropped on the far side under the lateral relief option.

 

When a penalty area is marked yellow, the Committee should ensure that a player will always be able to drop back-on-the-line under Rule 17.1d(2) or consider adding a dropping zone for the penalty area so that a player would have an option other than stroke and distance.

 

A Committee does not have to mark any penalty areas yellow. For simplicity, a Committee may decide to mark all penalty areas red so there is no confusion for players as to what relief options are available.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=2

[Krt22]

I actually had this happen recently,similar setup to the drawing, except the water was on the left. I hit an over-draw, hits the fringe, goes left into a bunker (which was basically packed sand), rolls through the bunker, and onto some rocks in a penalty area. Due to the crescent shape and where the actual stakes were, the bunker for the most part was actually part of the PA. Since I have to take full relief from the PA area, it wasn't exactly clear where I should drop. My player partners agreed it was some 20 feet away such that I did not end up closer to the hole. Not sure if that was correct, but that's how we interpreted/played it.

[Newby]

See Rule 17.1d

Back-On-the-Line Relief. The player may drop the original ball or another ball (see Rule 14.3) in a relief area that is based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area:

 

Reference Point: A point on the course chosen by the player that is on the reference line and is farther from the hole than the estimated point (with no limit on how far back on the line):

In choosing this reference point, the player should indicate the point by using an object (such as a tee).

If the player drops the ball without having chosen this point, the reference point is treated as being the point on the line that is the same distance from the hole as where the dropped ball first touched the ground.

Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and

May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area,

[Sawgrass]

And beyone Newby's recital, an April Clarification or two:

 

Rule 17.1d(2):

 

1. Reference Point for Back-On-the-Line Relief Must Be Outside Penalty Area:

When taking back-on-the-line relief from a penalty area, the reference point must be outside that penalty area. (Added 04/2019)

2. See the Committee Procedures section at end of this document for MLR E-12 Ball Played from Outside Relief Area When Taking Back-On-the-Line Relief

 

 

[sui generis]

> @Sawgrass said:

> And beyone Newby's recital, an April Clarification or two:

>

> Rule 17.1d(2):

>

> 1. Reference Point for Back-On-the-Line Relief Must Be Outside Penalty Area:

> When taking back-on-the-line relief from a penalty area, the reference point must be outside that penalty area. (Added 04/2019)

> 2. See the Committee Procedures section at end of this document for MLR E-12 Ball Played from Outside Relief Area When Taking Back-On-the-Line Relief

>

>

 

E-12 has made 2019's, already clumsy, back on the line even worse. Not many referees get it; next to no players even know of it's existence.

[Sawgrass]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > And beyone Newby's recital, an April Clarification or two:

> >

> > Rule 17.1d(2):

> >

> > 1. Reference Point for Back-On-the-Line Relief Must Be Outside Penalty Area:

> > When taking back-on-the-line relief from a penalty area, the reference point must be outside that penalty area. (Added 04/2019)

> > 2. See the Committee Procedures section at end of this document for MLR E-12 Ball Played from Outside Relief Area When Taking Back-On-the-Line Relief

> >

> >

>

> E-12 has made 2019's, already clumsy, back on the line even worse. Not many referees get it; next to no players even know of it's existence.

 

Its beauty resides in the fact that you don’t have to understand it to benefit from it!

[sui generis]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > And beyone Newby's recital, an April Clarification or two:

> > >

> > > Rule 17.1d(2):

> > >

> > > 1. Reference Point for Back-On-the-Line Relief Must Be Outside Penalty Area:

> > > When taking back-on-the-line relief from a penalty area, the reference point must be outside that penalty area. (Added 04/2019)

> > > 2. See the Committee Procedures section at end of this document for MLR E-12 Ball Played from Outside Relief Area When Taking Back-On-the-Line Relief

> > >

> > >

> >

> > E-12 has made 2019's, already clumsy, back on the line even worse. Not many referees get it; next to no players even know of it's existence.

>

> Its beauty resides in the fact that you don’t have to understand it to benefit from it!

 

Only if the player knows. So far, my experience has been that the player drops, the ball goes forward and they grab it immediately. I hate it . . . my rewrite will never float, however.

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > And beyone Newby's recital, an April Clarification or two:

> > >

> > > Rule 17.1d(2):

> > >

> > > 1. Reference Point for Back-On-the-Line Relief Must Be Outside Penalty Area:

> > > When taking back-on-the-line relief from a penalty area, the reference point must be outside that penalty area. (Added 04/2019)

> > > 2. See the Committee Procedures section at end of this document for MLR E-12 Ball Played from Outside Relief Area When Taking Back-On-the-Line Relief

> > >

> > >

> >

> > E-12 has made 2019's, already clumsy, back on the line even worse. Not many referees get it; next to no players even know of it's existence.

>

> Its beauty resides in the fact that you don’t have to understand it to benefit from it!

 

Care to enlighten the rest of us?

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > And beyone Newby's recital, an April Clarification or two:

> > > >

> > > > Rule 17.1d(2):

> > > >

> > > > 1. Reference Point for Back-On-the-Line Relief Must Be Outside Penalty Area:

> > > > When taking back-on-the-line relief from a penalty area, the reference point must be outside that penalty area. (Added 04/2019)

> > > > 2. See the Committee Procedures section at end of this document for MLR E-12 Ball Played from Outside Relief Area When Taking Back-On-the-Line Relief

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > E-12 has made 2019's, already clumsy, back on the line even worse. Not many referees get it; next to no players even know of it's existence.

> >

> > Its beauty resides in the fact that you don’t have to understand it to benefit from it!

>

> Care to enlighten the rest of us?

 

If you take BOL relief, and don’t select a reference point for your relief area before you drop, and your ball comes to rest an inch in front of where it hits the course, your ball is outside the relief area and if played is played from a wrong place. This local rule gives great possibility you won’t be penalized for that error even if you don’t know it’s in force. See this GolfWRX article for more detail: http://www.golfwrx.com/560458/a-merciful-new-local-rule/

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @Krt22 said:

> I actually had this happen recently,similar setup to the drawing, except the water was on the left. I hit an over-draw, hits the fringe, goes left into a bunker (which was basically packed sand), rolls through the bunker, and onto some rocks in a penalty area. Due to the crescent shape and where the actual stakes were, the bunker for the most part was actually part of the PA. Since I have to take full relief from the PA area, it wasn't exactly clear where I should drop. My player partners agreed it was some 20 feet away such that I did not end up closer to the hole. Not sure if that was correct, but that's how we interpreted/played it.

 

Question out if this for Newby and the like, can the bunker be part of the penalty area as described? Sure the straight line through the stakes might bisect the bunker at some point, but does that make the bunker into half a bunker and half a penalty area? I imagine in marking for competition the committee would be wise to paint the line to eliminate this confusion

[antip]

> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > I actually had this happen recently,similar setup to the drawing, except the water was on the left. I hit an over-draw, hits the fringe, goes left into a bunker (which was basically packed sand), rolls through the bunker, and onto some rocks in a penalty area. Due to the crescent shape and where the actual stakes were, the bunker for the most part was actually part of the PA. Since I have to take full relief from the PA area, it wasn't exactly clear where I should drop. My player partners agreed it was some 20 feet away such that I did not end up closer to the hole. Not sure if that was correct, but that's how we interpreted/played it.

>

> Question out if this for Newby and the like, can the bunker be part of the penalty area as described? Sure the straight line through the stakes might bisect the bunker at some point, but does that make the bunker into half a bunker and half a penalty area? I imagine in marking for competition the committee would be wise to paint the line to eliminate this confusion

 

Bunkers and penalty areas are mutually exclusive.

[Sawgrass]

If part of what would otherwise be a bunker is staked/lined off to be in a penalty area, that part is played by penalty area rules. If a ball is in both the bunker and penalty area (on the line but touching sand and the edge of the PA) it is played as if in the penalty area.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> If part of what would otherwise be a bunker is staked/lined off to be in a penalty area, that part is played by penalty area rules. If a ball is in both the bunker and penalty area (on the line but touching sand and the edge of the PA) it is played as if in the penalty area.

 

I've never seen such a creature on this continent.

[Argonne69]

> @antip said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > If part of what would otherwise be a bunker is staked/lined off to be in a penalty area, that part is played by penalty area rules. If a ball is in both the bunker and penalty area (on the line but touching sand and the edge of the PA) it is played as if in the penalty area.

>

> I've never seen such a creature on this continent.

 

Likewise. Generally speaking if a bunker is adjacent to the penalty area, the lines/stakes are routed behind the bunker.