A ruling clarification is needed.

[Vespar]

> @cval said:

> > @Vespar said:

> > > @cval said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @Vespar said:

> > > > > > @Dpavs said:

> > > > > > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > > > > > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

> > > > >

> > > > > **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> > > > > 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> > > > > 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> > > > > 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> > > > > 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> > > > > 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> > > > > 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> > > > > 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> > > > > 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> > > > > We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> > > > > I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> > > > > 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

> > > >

> > > > Did you play with him the first day or was he in a different group? I have to wonder if there is a possibility he was in a group that did give some gimmies even though they were 1000% not supposed to. Having some conversations with a few of our players I was amazed at what they would consider allowing to happen even in the club championship. I am guessing your guy may still feel like he didn't do anything that deserves a penalty.

> > > >

> > > > I see you are getting some flack here but I don't think any of us know how we would react in the moment of a similar situation. With a player that wasn't a friend it would seem to be easier as I don't think I would be as shocked or angered about them putting me into a moral dilemma. If this had happened with the 2 **friends** I was playing with in this years club championship I am not sure how I would have reacted and am not confident I would react quickly enough to recover before teeing off on the second hole. It would be quite shocking to me and a million thoughts would be going through my mind given the moral dilemma I was just put in by a friend. I am 100% confident I would eventually get to the same place as you did I just don't know how quickly I would have gotten there. The most amazing part to me is he did it again on hole 2?

> > > >

> > > > Hopefully when you get get some time between the incident it can be discussed without a bunch of hard feelings on either parties part.

> > >

> > > Please clarify if he holed out on the 2nd hole or not.

> >

> > The issue of NOT holing out was on the 1st hole, we started our round on hole #1, we were given verbal hole out everything instructions on #1 tee box.

>

> Nobody, at least I am not, is arguing that he did not hole out therefore DQ This is not a PGA tour event or anybody'd source of income. My point is a friend you should have said something before you went to the pro. My point in asking if he did the same on hole number 2 after the incident on one it changes the narrative a bit. Either way 1. you have told him he needed to hole out 2. you should have told him you were going to the pro.

>

> He has a right to be upset for going behind his back. He has nobody to blame but himself for being DQd.

>

 

I disagree and so does the USGA, good god what narrative could you possibly be talking about on hole two?

 

The same set of rules in the PGA tour are the same in any championship. Its his responsibility to honor the rules and scoring of golf. It is his responsibility to understand the rules and the protocol for tournaments. It is not my responsibility to correct his careless mistake nor to be informed of what he knows and doesn't know. His job was to give me a score, my job was to record it. Once a player tees off on ( hole two) in this case hole one becomes closed. I was not aware of this myself, nor the other two people in the group. Yes in hindsite there was option to replay or replace the ball on hole one, where though? especially after it was batted about the green. I respectfully disagree with you opinion and hope you are never placed in a similar moral decision. We followed protocol of the USGA rules.

 

Conversely if he said on the 2nd tee, Hey guys I f'd up I'm going to continue to play for skins/ pins and we'll figure this out after the round, right now I am disqualifying myself.....end of story

 

[davep043]

> @Vespar said:

 

> The same set of rules in the PGA tour are the same in any championship. Its his responsibility to honor the rules and scoring of golf. It is his responsibility to understand the rules and the protocol for tournaments. It is not my responsibility to correct his careless mistake nor to be informed of what he knows and doesn't know. His job was to give me a score, my job was to record it.

 

 

> Player A is a good friend, you will be playing with him a lot. Would you do anything different?

 

Earlier I mentioned the case of a player teeing his ball in front of the markers in stroke play. You certainly have no obligation under the rules to tell him to correct that placement before he hits a shot, and once he hits it, you have no obligation to remind him to play from the correct spot before he goes too far. But its the right thing to do, in my opinion. The right thing is to prevent penalties to your competitors if you reasonably can.

This case isn't much different. All three of you knew that he was required to hole the ball. None of you told him that, you allowed him to continue play on the next hole. You didn't break any rules by your inaction. But I'd suggest that you didn't really follow the "right" course of action at that moment. Later, of course, bringing it to the attention of the appropriate officials WAS the right thing to do.

 

 

[Vespar]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Vespar said:

> > Straight out of the rule book regarding this specific debacle….Looks as though we ( player B, C and D) did the right thing. The TD was not immediately available, including by phone.

>

> While I still struggle to understand where in the Rules you found that you did the right thing I dare to suggest that there was an alternative way of acting. NO NEED TO DARE.....HIND SITE IS 20/20 AND THE ORIGINAL POST HAD ' RULES CLARIFICATION AND WHAT WOULD YOU DO? AS THE SUBJECT.

 

PLAYERS EDITION.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=20

>

> First, you all knew one has to hole out. You did nothing to highlight that to player A. I wonder why.

PRESSED BECAUSE OF TEAM BEHIND US AND BASICALLY SHOCKED BY THE INCIDENT, IT ALL HAPPENED QUICKLY WE ALL HEADED FOR THE CARTS. I DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF US TRULY KNEW WHAT TO DO BECAUSE WE NEVER EXPERIENCED IT BEFORE. ALSO THAT THE PUTT COULD BE REPLAYED AT THAT MOMENT. I GUESS YOU HAD TO BE THERE TO UNDERSTAND THAT. BETWEEN ALL OF US WE HAD OVER 150 YEARS OF GOLF EXPERIENCE, ALL SINGLE DIGIT HANDICAPPERS. IT WAS STRANGE.

>

> Second, in stroke play it is always possible to play another ball. So you could have asked player A to replace his ball and play another ball, just in case. AGAIN WE WERE OFF TO THE 2ND TEE AND PLAYER A ASKED WHAT ARE YOU GUYS GOING TO GIVE ME...WAS ABOUT ALL THAT WAS SAID ON THAT TEE BOX.

>

> Third, you could have warned player A that he just might have done a costly mistake not holing out. This IMO should have been done at the very latest when he asked you what is his score for the hole. You all knew there was no score as he did not hole out. THE WHOA WHOA WHOA AND PLAYERS As ACTIONS, BODY LANGUAGE CONFIRMED HE KNEW. THIS WASN'T A CASE OF ONE SCORE CARD WE EACH HAD EACH OTHERS SCORE CARD.

>

> As Sawgrass I would also like to hear what you have personally learned out of this case as your latest post suggests you would do the same thing all over again next time. ? WHAT PLAYER A SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IS YOU HOLE OUT NO MATTER WHAT AND TAKE RULES AND TOURNAMENT PROTOCOL SERIOUSLY.

 

 

[cval]

At the end of the day you have to decide how valuable the friendship is. Technically you were 100% correct.

[Mr. Bean]

Vespar, unfortunately your answers make very little sense.

 

Pressed by a group behind? On the very first hole?? It takes 10 seconds to tell player A he needs to hole out.

 

150 years of golfing experience and you did not know what to do? Oh dear...

 

Number of score cards has no relevance at all. I do not understand the need to bring that up. There was no need to deal with score cards yet as one of the players had not finished his hole.

 

Player A learned to hole out but what did YOU learn? That is what Sawgrass asked after you had written that you had learned something.

[QEight]

Single digit handicappers with 150 years of experience, and no balls to say to the guy, that he needs to hole out. Not even the guy who was holding his card and supposed to know the score.

I understand that things happen quickly, but at least on the second tee it should have been talked through. And you were playing with carts, so driving back and putting again would have been a non-issue.

[sui generis]

Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

[davep043]

> @"sui generis" said:

> Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

 

Yet he did ask what we would do differently. And the one thing I'd suggest, if you're aware of a rules-related issue, resolve the issue before playing onward.

[Mr. Bean]

> @"sui generis" said:

> Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

 

Well, there is that risk when you ask what could have been made differently. Maybe he shouldn't have asked if he does not like the answers.

 

And I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

[sui generis]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

>

> Well, there is that risk when you ask what could have been made differently. Maybe he shouldn't have asked if he does not like the answers.

>

> And I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

 

As you might know, also. There are times on the golf course, no matter whether with a golf club in my hand or sporting a badge and a radio, when I make decisions that I might have made differently with either more time or with fewer distractions. That's all.

[Mr. Bean]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

> >

> > Well, there is that risk when you ask what could have been made differently. Maybe he shouldn't have asked if he does not like the answers.

> >

> > And I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

>

> As you might know, also. There are times on the golf course, no matter whether with a golf club in my hand or sporting a badge and a radio, when I make decisions that I might have made differently with either more time or with fewer distractions. That's all.

 

Yup, I know. But I would never ever have not holed out if that was the requirement, nor would I have let another player to do that in my group. With or without distractions. That's all.

 

And still I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

 

P.S. The original question was 'what would you do'. Myself and many others have answered that question. I wonder why answering a question is suddenly a sin.

[sui generis]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

> > >

> > > Well, there is that risk when you ask what could have been made differently. Maybe he shouldn't have asked if he does not like the answers.

> > >

> > > And I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

> >

> > As you might know, also. There are times on the golf course, no matter whether with a golf club in my hand or sporting a badge and a radio, when I make decisions that I might have made differently with either more time or with fewer distractions. That's all.

>

> Yup, I know. But I would never ever have not holed out if that was the requirement, nor would I have let another player to do that in my group. With or without distractions. That's all.

>

> And still I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

>

> P.S. The original question was 'what would you do'. Myself and many others have answered that question. I wonder why answering a question is suddenly a sin.

 

Never mind, Mr Bean, you're right as always.

[Vindog]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on it, we often wish that we might have solved a problem differently. I doubt Vespar posted this event in order to have a bunch of second-guessers pile on him.

> > >

> > > Well, there is that risk when you ask what could have been made differently. Maybe he shouldn't have asked if he does not like the answers.

> > >

> > > And I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

> >

> > As you might know, also. There are times on the golf course, no matter whether with a golf club in my hand or sporting a badge and a radio, when I make decisions that I might have made differently with either more time or with fewer distractions. That's all.

>

>

>

> And still I have no idea what hindsight has to do with anything here.

>

>

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hindsight_is_20/20

 

[Augster]

There’s not a lot of “heat of the moment” and “I should have ruled differently” stuff in THIS case. In THIS case the only reasonable thing to do is have him replace and putt out. They could have ACCIDENTALLY gotten that correct just by having him putt out.

 

This thread gets worse and worse. Now, it turns out, they were in a group that have played for a long time. And NONE of the guys just manned up and said, “Hey dufus, this is stoke play. Replace and hole it out.” I had assumed it was a group of guys that this was their first club championship and/or new to the game. Shameful they allowed their “friend” to get DQ’d by not insisting he hole out. With friends like that.....

[sui generis]

> @Augster said:

> There’s not a lot of “heat of the moment” and “I should have ruled differently” stuff in THIS case. In THIS case the only reasonable thing to do is have him replace and putt out. They could have ACCIDENTALLY gotten that correct just by having him putt out.

>

> This thread gets worse and worse. Now, it turns out, they were in a group that have played for a long time. And NONE of the guys just manned up and said, “Hey dufus, this is stoke play. Replace and hole it out.” I had assumed it was a group of guys that this was their first club championship and/or new to the game. Shameful they allowed their “friend” to get DQ’d by not insisting he hole out. With friends like that.....

 

Some of us see it differently, that's all.

[Heckle]

Really a shame to hear

[Sawgrass]

IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

[Vindog]

> @Augster said:

> There’s not a lot of “heat of the moment” and “I should have ruled differently” stuff in THIS case. In THIS case the only reasonable thing to do is have him replace and putt out. They could have ACCIDENTALLY gotten that correct just by having him putt out.

>

> This thread gets worse and worse. Now, it turns out, they were in a group that have played for a long time. And NONE of the guys just manned up and said, “Hey dufus, this is stoke play. Replace and hole it out.” I had assumed it was a group of guys that this was their first club championship and/or new to the game. Shameful they allowed their “friend” to get DQ’d by not insisting he hole out. With friends like that.....

 

Meh. Reality is likely on the more reasonable side of this extreme, not that I disrespect your opinion.

 

If you see something, say something I guess, but you should probably hole out first. Two lessons in one neat package.

[Augster]

> @Sawgrass said:

> IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

 

Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

 

Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @Augster said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

>

> Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

>

> Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

>

>

Crazy talk.

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

> >

> > Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

> >

> > Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

> >

> >

> Crazy talk.

>

 

Some of us see that differently, that's all.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

> > >

> > > Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

> > >

> > > Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

> > >

> > >

> > Crazy talk.

> >

>

> Some of us see that differently, that's all.

 

Fine, see it as you wish. But I assert that the phrase "protecting the field" does not mean protecting the rule breaker, it means protecting people FROM the rule breaker. I believe that players should attempt to stop someone from breaking a rule, particularly a DQ rule. But I don't believe that players must do so.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

> > > >

> > > > Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

> > > >

> > > > Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > Crazy talk.

> > >

> >

> > Some of us see that differently, that's all.

>

> Fine, see it as you wish. But I assert that the phrase "protecting the field" does not mean protecting the rule breaker, it means protecting people FROM the rule breaker. I believe that players should attempt to stop someone from breaking a rule, particularly a DQ rule. But I don't believe that players must do so.

 

You are absolutely right there but IMO one should include also helping a player in this 'protecting the field' stuff. Certainly protecting means interfering with breaches of Rules that any player has not recorded in their score but I want to see it as a larger concept. After all, protecting the entire field from one player getting too low score due to missing penalties is not that far away from protecting a player who is about to get DQ'd due to a breach of Rules.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

> > > > >

> > > > > Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > Crazy talk.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Some of us see that differently, that's all.

> >

> > Fine, see it as you wish. But I assert that the phrase "protecting the field" does not mean protecting the rule breaker, it means protecting people FROM the rule breaker. I believe that players should attempt to stop someone from breaking a rule, particularly a DQ rule. But I don't believe that players must do so.

>

> You are absolutely right there but IMO one should include also helping a player in this 'protecting the field' stuff. Certainly protecting means interfering with breaches of Rules that any player has not recorded in their score but I want to see it as a larger concept. After all, protecting the entire field from one player getting too low score due to missing penalties is not that far away from protecting a player who is about to get DQ'd due to a breach of Rules.

 

Way to much emphasis on what the field can do for this guy. Way too little emphasis on his obligation to know the rules. People will always have trouble with aspects of the rules, but come on -- he's playing in a formal stroke play tournament, and was TOLD to putt out, and still didn't. That's terrible, and it's on him.

[Augster]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > IMO it is a fool's errand to blame the people who happened to see the failure to hole out. Sure they could have done something to mitagate the problem. But the only thing they absoluely **had** to do was to report it. On balance, I congratulate them for protecting the field, and frankly don't care if they "go behind" my back or anyone elses. We as individuals are required to play by the rules, and I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to make sure that I, or anyone else, is doing so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ha. I would argue they are only protecting SOME of the field. The player in question is part of that field also. He needs protection from his own stupidity. In that perspective, they failed miserably. They chose a “part” of the “field” to protect (everyone else), and by their actions, chose not to protect the other part (that player).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once players start picking and choosing what parts of the field they feel like protecting, it’s a spiral to chaos.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > Crazy talk.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Some of us see that differently, that's all.

> > >

> > > Fine, see it as you wish. But I assert that the phrase "protecting the field" does not mean protecting the rule breaker, it means protecting people FROM the rule breaker. I believe that players should attempt to stop someone from breaking a rule, particularly a DQ rule. But I don't believe that players must do so.

> >

> > You are absolutely right there but IMO one should include also helping a player in this 'protecting the field' stuff. Certainly protecting means interfering with breaches of Rules that any player has not recorded in their score but I want to see it as a larger concept. After all, protecting the entire field from one player getting too low score due to missing penalties is not that far away from protecting a player who is about to get DQ'd due to a breach of Rules.

>

> Way to much emphasis on what the field can do for this guy. Way too little emphasis on his obligation to know the rules. People will always have trouble with aspects of the rules, but come on -- he's playing in a formal stroke play tournament, and was TOLD to putt out, and still didn't. That's terrible, and it's on him.

 

I agree absolutely...BUT, when a group is faced with a rules breach like this, and at least 3 guys knew what to do, withholding the information of what to do isn’t protecting part of the field, the player in question.

 

Same exact scenario. But the guy is your best friend. I’d bet, 1000%, the players would tell him exactly what to do. But let’s say the guy is the club D-bag. A guy nobody really likes. A blow hard. Do these players withhold the information of what to do to get the guy DQ’d? In this new scenario, None of them actually like the guy, and he’s a good stick, so seeing him DQ’d is a boon for all the guys in the field they DO like.

 

It’s a slippery slope once we allow players to selectively choose WHO they want to protect in the field.

 

[Dpavs]

No knock intended on the OP or the other guys in his group here because I have no way to know what was going on inside anyone's head.

So with that said, there are the rules and then there is good sportsmanship. I think we can agree that the rules are the obligatory one of the two but, any sport is better when the two are well blended.

[raindawg1]

Interesting thread to read through. I think probably on the second tee everyone was still in a fog over what just happened, trying to process it all. And didn't know what the penalty was supposed to be. Even the offending player. His asking "what are you going to give me?", to me was probably "what penalty are you going to give me?". No one knew, they're in a tournament and want to keep things going, so everyone kept playing. From that point on he probably thought it had been resolved. Once heads cleared later on and everyone was thinking straight and the discussion to get a ruling was going on during the round it would have been nice to let your friend know before it happened. He's probably pissed that he got DQ'd (his fault all the way though), but he's also pissed that his good friends didn't even tell him they were going to request a ruling. That's my interpretation though.

[Vespar]

> @raindawg1 said:

> Interesting thread to read through. I think probably on the second tee everyone was still in a fog over what just happened, trying to process it all. And didn't know what the penalty was supposed to be. Even the offending player. His asking "what are you going to give me?", to me was probably "what penalty are you going to give me?". No one knew, they're in a tournament and want to keep things going, so everyone kept playing. From that point on he probably thought it had been resolved. Once heads cleared later on and everyone was thinking straight and the discussion to get a ruling was going on during the round it would have been nice to let your friend know before it happened. He's probably pissed that he got DQ'd (his fault all the way though), but he's also pissed that his good friends didn't even tell him they were going to request a ruling. That's my interpretation though.

 

Thank you for the excellent post because thats is exactly what transpired, exactly how we felt, in a fog , in shock. The 3 of us have never ever witnessed such a breach of a rules. Like witnessing the aftermath of a car wreck we just wanted to look away. Perhaps because it was a close friend it was that more tough to look at and or comment on. As you so pointed out once are heads cleared a couple of holes later. As i have stated perhaps for the 4th time ( not to you) none of us knew at the moment that you could replace a ball after you hit it a couple of times. He placed it in his pocket, we all walked off with out saying a word in shock. Was he asking "what penalty are you going to give me? ...I'm not sure. I think generally he was more concerned with getting his Bogie (5) and unsure with what he just did.

 

Sawgrass, what lessen did I learn? 1) after batting the ball around on green you can go back, replace and put out.

The other lessen I learned #2) is that there are lot of people that follow the beat of their own drummer. they generally do not take anything seriously, They drive cars the same way, they can be rude, they think it is all about them, they can be selfish, they read what they want to read, hear what they want to hear, rules may or may not apply to them and of course blame others for their own misfortunes large and small, they generally do not take anything seriously....including on a golf course.