What is the one rule you wish could be changed

[HatsForBats]

Am I getting the gist that LICC is upset because the term used is an 'Unplayable Ball' so therefore a ball that a player KNOWS is playable for them should not be able to take relief with this rule? If they do then they are being dishonest?

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/topics/unplayable-ball.html

Topic Overview: If you are in a situation where you don’t want to or don’t think you can play your ball, you always have the option of taking relief under the unplayable ball Rule.

Don't want to and always makes it pretty definitive. Don't ya think?

 

[davep043]

Obviously the USGA is just wrong, they don't understand the rules that they've written.

[davep043]

[LICC]

Marketing fluff.

The history of the unplayable lie rule is interesting:

Burntisland 1828 introduced a novel version of the unplayable ball: if the player believes he cannot play the ball, his adversary may try to do so. If the adversary either fails or declines to do so, the player can then proceed to drop the ball.

R&A, 1851 With the consent of one's adversary, a player could lift and drop behind the place for 1 penalty stroke. If the adversary disagreed, he could take two strokes at the ball to make it playable. If he succeeded then the 2 strokes were added to the players score and he played on. If not then the player proceeded with the drop.

R&A 1858 Match play, play the ball as it lies or lose the hole, except if the ball is on an obstruction or in water in which case no penalty but the ball must be played with an iron club. Stroke play, the ball may be lifted from anywhere and teed behind the place; 2 penalty strokes.

Liverpool (Hoylake; now Royal Liverpool) 1870: An opponent was allowed three strokes in which to make the ball playable, if he succeeded, the player incurs the additional strokes; if not, the opponent added them to HIS score!1902. Stroke play, 2 penalty strokes and the player shall tee a ball behind the spot.1920: Ball now can be 'deemed' unplayable anywhere on the course; penalty stroke and distance in match play, stroke and distance or tee behind the place for 2 strokes in stroke play.

Although a ball could be declared unplayable anywhere at this time, if a player's ball was in a water hazard, by following the water hazard Rule he could get back into play for one penalty stroke instead of two in stroke play (or loss of hole in match play).

The blueprint for the modern unplayable rule came from:1941 USGA. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable. It may be declared unplayable at any place on the course, except in a water hazard or in casual water.1947 the USGA said a ball could be declared anywhere on the course. In stroke play a ball may be lifted from any place except a water hazard, penalty one stroke.1950. Unplayable is defined: 'if the player consider he cannot make a stroke at it and dislodge it into a playable position'.

1952 definition dropped.

This tells you that the provision in the rule that the player is the only one who decides whether to treat a ball as unplayable wasn't meant to give a pass for being dishonest. It was to move away from the decades of the rules allowing an opponent to take strokes at the ball to make it playable.

[Sawgrass]

Hats, I was wrong about what would happen if someone posted a USGA answer. LICC did not say the USGA was illogical. He said they were fluffy.

And funny how he had time to write about history, but not about his being wrong about dishonesty Imagine that!

 

[Vindog]

The only Definition that attempted to specify what “unplayable” actually is only lasted 2 years.

[Mr. Bean]

LICC, still waiting...

[LICC]

The very next sentence after what Hats posted (bold added): "The player is the only person who can decide that their ball is unplayable ..." And then: "When you decide that your ball is unplayable ..."

There has to be a decision that the ball is unplayable. It didn't say "When you just don't want to play your ball ..." It said you have to decide the ball is unplayable. Rule 1.2 requires honesty. Nothing Hats posted helps your argument.

It is amazing how hard a number of you are fighting for the ability to be dishonest in playing golf.

[Mr. Bean]

So... if my ball is in a Penalty Area but playable I am dishonest if I invoke Rule 17.1b and take a relief with one penalty stroke? Is that it?

[CaseyC]

Once again, from the rulesPurpose of Rule: Rule 19 covers your relief options for an unplayable ball. This allows you to choose which option to use – normally with one penalty stroke – to get out of a difficult situation anywhere on the course (except in a penalty area).

 

and (bolding mine)

If the player decides that he or she cannot (or does not wish to) play the ball as it now lies, the player may again take unplayable ball relief, for an additional penalty, using any available relief option under Rule 19.

[Vindog]

Except that it did.

[CaseyC]

"The player is the only person who can decide that their ball is unplayable ...

 

That is not what the rule says. This is what it saysA player is the only person who may decide to treat his or her ball as unplayable by taking penalty relief under Rule 19.2 or 19.3.

 

[LICC]

This post is as dishonest as you are arguing to be on the golf course. I'll repeat what I posted earlier when someone else tried the same chicanery:

The full reading of the interpretation is (bolding after the heading added):

19.2/1 – No Guarantee Ball Will Be Playable After Taking Unplayable Ball ReliefWhen taking unplayable ball relief, a player must accept the outcome even if it is unfavourable, such as when a dropped ball comes to rest in its original location or in a bad lie in another location in the relief area:

Once the dropped ball comes to rest in the, the player has a new situation.If the player decides that he or she cannot (or does not wish to) play the ball as it now lies, the player may again take unplayable ball relief, for an additional penalty, using any available relief option under Rule 19.

Clearly, the bullets are being applied to a ball in its original location, which was unplayable, or in a new location that is a bad lie. The fact that they added the words "in a bad lie" supports my argument that a player shouldn't just declare a ball in a good lie as unplayable. The "does not wish to" language in the second bullet is constrained by the beginning of the interpretation, which limits the scope to a ball in its original unplayable position or in its newly dropped position "in a bad lie."

[CaseyC]

A "bad lie" does not necessarily mean "cannot be played"

If the ball can't be played, "does not wish" would be illogical. Have a choice, which "does not wish" implies only makes sense if the ball could be played.

[davep043]

Wait, so the parts that come first take precedence over what comes later? So when the Purpose of Rule 19 says that the rule:

"allows the player to choose which option to use – normally with one penalty stroke – to get out of a difficult situation anywhere on the course (except in a penalty area)."

that similarly takes precedence over the text that follows? "Difficult situation" seems to me to clarify the meaning of "unplayable ball", which is introduced into the rules one sentence earlier, but has never been defined. That sentence didn't clarify "unplayable" by saying "a position where the player cannot strike it", it sets a substantially lower threshhold.

[Londoner]

Error.

[DaveLeeNC]

How does a person determine that their lie is adequately bad in order to comply with Rule 1.2 in this case?

dave

[Mr. Bean]

LICC, I am still waiting... only there is now one question more for you to answer... post #1209.

[LICC]

If they genuinely believe the lie is difficult enough that they can't play it.

[CaseyC]

Thus "does not wish" would be illogical.

Or can you define: "can't play it". What does that mean?

[Sean2]

If you look at some of the things that have happened (DJ, Lexi, etc), this may actually be true. ;-)

[Mr. Bean]

I believe I have been patient enough but now I am done. LICC has not answered my questions and that can only mean that he agrees with my arguments and all the posts he has written have been false. I do not think this has become as a surprise to anyone.

[DaveLeeNC]

So the same as unplayable, How odd.

dave

[LICC]

The "does not wish" language comes in a sentence interpreting what to do after a drop. The main point is you can't get a free re-drop.

[CaseyC]

But if you wish, you can take another unplayable. How do you define "can't play it"?

[LICC]

If you dropped in the same original unplayable position or another “bad lie”.

[CaseyC]

Nope, just if you wish,. Just like any "unplayable"

How do yu define "can't play it:"?

[LICC]

Read the whole thing more carefully, because you are struggling here.

[Londoner]

You really are a piece of work.

[CaseyC]

So "unplayable" simply means "difficult enough" for a specific player.

Thank you for finally agreeing with most of us here, the USGA and the R&A