What is the one rule you wish could be changed

[LICC]

If so, then I won’t post it.

[Sawgrass]

Being “devoted to honesty and logic” may not include cooperation with requests from entities offering free consultation.

[davep043]

This whole thing gets back to the role of the Ruling Bodies. They have decided that there are 5 areas within the course, as well as other areas that are Out of Bounds, that are not one of those 5 areas. Each of the 5 areas (and OB) has specific rules that govern it. Most of the differentiation is somewhat arbitrary. @LICC's assertion is that the ability to play a shot should be the deciding factor should unify the penalties of OB and Penalty Areas. He says you can't play a shot from the bottom of a pond, and you can't play a ball OB, so the situations are the same, and should be treated the same.

That same logic would unify the treatment of the Putting Green and the General Area. After all, you have an identical opportunity to putt from one inch off the green as you do when your ball is one inch on the green. But that inch onto the green allows you to mark and clean your ball. That inch allows you to accidentally move your ball without penalty. So using the logic, that the opportunity to play a shot would mean that you should be able to lift and clean your ball in the General Area, and suffer no penalty for accidentally moving it.

Or a ball is an inch into the bunker. I cannot ground my club on the sand, I cannot take a practice swing that touches the sand, yet if my ball were a few inches away, in the General Area, I could. Another arbitrary distinction, based on the location of the ball in one of the defined areas.

Another similar situation, your ball is next to a fence that is in the General Area. Well, that fence is an Obstruction, and you get relief. But if your next to a fence that is OB, you get no such relief. Shouldn't the same rules apply whenever there's a man-made thing that interferes with your stance or swing, no matter where that thing is located?

Your ball is embedded within a Penalty Area, you don't get relief. Why isn't that the same as when your ball is in the General Area? Because the rules say so. The rules give you more "rights" when you're in the General Area than they do when you're in one of the less desirable locations (a qualitative decision).

All of this goes back to the Ruling Bodies decision to define different areas, and to vary the rules regarding play depending on which area your ball lies within. That initial decision defines the logic of everything that comes afterwards.

 

 

[sui generis]

Don't worry we (or at least an overwhelming majority of we) know what their reply will be.

[CaseyC]

What new rules went into effect January 1st?

[Mr. Bean]

I am sure they have but this question from LICC is just too difficult to be answered quickly, it will take at least a year.

[sui generis]

The laughter will subside by early afternoon. Then they'll draw lots to see who gets to author the response.

[Mr. Bean]

That was a good one!

[Shilgy]

Off the course is different than off the property. The tennis courts at a club are typically marked as OB. As is the driving range and parking lots. None of them are off the property but are off the course. If you cannot keep you ball on the course the penalty is , and should be, more severe.

[LICC]

Do you not know that internal OB is on the course?

[Shilgy]

Do you know OB means Out of Bounds? Your idea is akin to saying the hole in the middle is actually a part of the doughnut.

 

Internal OB is on the club property but is off the course.

[rogolf]

The Rules provide the definition of "course" as "the entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:

all areas inside the boundary edge are in bounds and part of the courseall areas outside the boundary edge are out of bounds and not part of the coursethe boundary edge extends both up above the ground and down below the ground.The course is made up of the five defined areas of the course".

No mention of "property" in the definition.

Further, from Committee Procedures:

Certain features such as maintenance areas, clubhouses and practice grounds, may be marked or defined by Local Rule as out of bounds even though they are not on the course's property.To maintain the character of a hole or to protect players on adjacent holes, the Committee may establish boundaries between two holes. The internal boundary may apply for the play of only one hole or to more than one hole. The hole or holes for the internal out of bounds applies, and the status of the stakes during play of holes for which the boundary does not apply, should be clarified through a Local Rule.

[sui generis]

The "boundaries" of the course are defined by out of bounds markings or by other means. Thus, anywhere designated by the Committee as out of bounds is NOT a part of the golf course,

[Mr. Bean]

That question made me think of a parrot. You know, the bird that can learn words and even sentences not knowing the meaning of.

I wonder why I got that impression..?

[LICC]

It’s amazing how many things you are both adamant and wrong:

From the R&A, bold added:

“Internal Out of Bounds

Purpose. For course design or safety reasons, a Committee can choose to specify that a particular part of the course is out of bounds during the play of a particular hole. 

[Mr. Bean]

It seems LICC sent the question already last year, anticipating the situation.

[Shilgy]

So the fairway of hole 8 is OB when playing hole 9 for example. You seem to enjoy semantics more than the actual rules it seems.

 

What part of the course is internal OB? Since according to you it is still on the course you should be able to tell us which of the five areas it is a part of?

You started with OB should be treated the same as a pond and received many responses saying “no, because OB is off the course”. So now you have veered to “but what about internal OB”.

 

It’s really rather childish.

 

The end-at least for me. I told myself I was done but succumbed to responding to this last bit of drivel. Congrats.

Perhaps soon this Rules forum can return to being an aid to other golfers.

[LICC]

1 - saying OB is off the course is not a actual reason why the penalty should be harsher

2- internal OB is not physically off the golf course

[DaveLeeNC]

If the boundary between holes 4 and 6 are defined as internal OB, then when playing hole 4, hole 6 really is off the golf course. Sorry that you don't approve of the way the golf world uses the language, but that is the way it is defined and used. It is an area where play is prohibited even if that definition can change hole to hole (on pretty rare occasions, BTW - I can only remember one or two holes in my entire life having internal OB).

Here is another one for you to rant about. 'Ground Under Repair' can very well be an area that no one EVER intends to repair, much less is being repaired. But it can still be 'officially' Ground Under Repair. Maybe start a new thread on that one and propose that a repair plan must be put in place before GUR is so deemed?

dave

 

[Newby]

Everything in the Rules is the RB's preference. Does that make them illogical?

[Vindog]

1) The actual reason it is harsher is because the player failed to keep it within the playing area in which the game is designed to be played. Pretty simple.

 

 

[davep043]

I think I said this in my long past back there a ways. Everything begins with the definition of different areas of the course, as well as areas NOT on the course (OB). The Rules define areas, and define different rules for each different area. Without that initial definition of the areas, none of the rest makes any sense at all.

[LICC]

Not the way the R&A phrases it. They say internal OB is “part of the course”

[LICC]

Do you think the game is designed to be played at the bottom of a pond?

[Vindog]

The game allows you to play from a penalty area. I can't say what a designer might have in mind. Maybe they put a pond there to force relief under 17, rather than give the opportunity to play from there.

 

 

[sui generis]

The game is designed to be played on the golf course as defined by the Committee. EVERY relief procedure is intimately concerned with . . . where does the ball lie? If the ball lies in your favorite spot at the bottom of a pond that ball lies in a Penalty Area and Rule 17 gives you several options. If the ball lies off the golf course Rule 18 tells you that you have only two choices, accept stroke and distance or throw a tantrum and go home.

[LICC]

Yes, which gets us back to the original discussion- in my opinion S&D for OB is a bad rule.

[rogolf]

The Model Local Rule (approved by both the R&A and USGA) to be used is:

"During play of [specify hole number] the [describe the part of the course] on [specify location or side] of the hole, defined by [specify colour of stakes] is out of bounds."

The definition of "out of boundss" says, "All areas outside the edge of the course as defined by the Committee."

So, the part of the course defined as out of bounds during play of one hole is not part of the course (not one of the five defined areas of the course) during play of that hole, but is part of the course during play of other holes.

Selective use of parts of the documentation and semantics might seemingly help support your opinions, but do demonstrate an apparent lack of understanding of the game of golf, the role of the Committee and the purpose of the Rules of the game.

We have a warm wind here today and the ice is getting thinner.

[DaveLeeNC]

That actually is not an unreasonable position to take. There are a lot of people who feel that way.

Claiming that areas inside a PA are the same as areas that are OB is not a reasonable position. Maybe they are to be treated the same from the perspective of some relief options (or not) - that is a matter of opinion. But they are very different areas that must have different rules (as you can at least attempt to play from a PA and you cannot even attempt to play from OB).

dave

[sui generis]

You and everyone else is entitled to like some Rules and dislike others. There's a Rule I would change, but Rule 18 is not it.