Need some help to understand lie and length

[Orville]

I'm 6'5" and for about the last 8 years have played Ping i20 maroon dot irons +1". According to Ping's color code chart maroon is 4.5* upright. Also, according to Taylormade's fitting guide, +1" would add an additional 2* of upright to the club, I think. So I think if that's true, I'm actually playing 6.5* upright? Which is probably way too upright. If I look at the Ping color chart as a reference, for my height they recommend +1" and either 2* or 3* upright, which would once again be close to 4* or 5* with the additional +1".

What I'm trying to figure out is if a clubmaker gives an option to make your club 2* upright and also lengthen your club +1", are they going to make that combination a total of 2* upright or are they going to make it 2* AND allow the +1" add another 2* in addition to the aforementioned 2*?

https://ping.com/en-us/fitting/custom-fitting/iron-color-code-chart

Also I got fitted before for these clubs, but the person was a Ping salesman and I don't really think he knew what he was doing. Therefore, I don't think I really need 6.5* upright. In fact, I almost want to go to 3* and +.50" as due to my ballstriking the +1" does seem a bit too long for my skill level. Most charts suggest +.5" I could get away with as I'm slightly under 6'5". I also read another trick recently where if you get in your golf position with an iron and slide a nickel under the toe of your club, the nickel should stop just before the center of your clubface to indicate an unconventional, but decent gauge of lie.

Thanks for any help in clearing this up for me.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

tall players tend to have long arms. club length needs to be fit based on posture and arm length. at 6'5" i don't doubt 1" long is accurate, but whatever is most comfortable. i'd recommend finding a more well known respected fitter. luckily, lie angle can be adjusted after purchase. this should be fit based on ball flight or using a vertical line on ball and seeing the angle of the imprint. the nickel trick doesn't sound like a great idea as lie angle matters more at impact rather than setup.

[Tommyj]

You seem to be focused on a lot of technical details. Has something led you to question the specs of your irons after 8 years, are you having any issues with the direction or shape of your shots? I wouldn't concern myself too much with the minutia if the irons are working for you.

If you are having new clubs made, shouldn't the club maker build the set to the proper length for your height and arm length and then adjust the lie angle to produce the ball flight you're looking for?

[Stuart_G]

Forget the charts or what the OEM's do to lie angle for different lengths, the only way to fit lie angle properly is to test it dynamically - and NOT with a lie board. Fortunately, it's something you can test yourself very easily.

Just read through this thread (and you don't even need the face labels, just a dry erase marker):https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1355102/open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/p1

[Orville]

That's really neat! Your comment about not needing the face label and just the dry erase marker, how do you figure that? It looks like the face labels give you a direct idea of exactly how many degrees, although there are several different versions of the label and i'm not sure which one is the right one. if you can explain that would be greatly appreciated!

I think at some point Ping switched the maroon dot from 4.5 degrees upright to 5 degrees, so I'm not exactly sure what my maroon dot i20s are, but I'm thinking 4.5 degrees. Either way it seems like this DIY will at least give me a rough idea.

[Stuart_G]

The dry erase mark on the ball will leave a mark on the face even without the face labels, then all you need to do compare the mark left on the face with the pictures of the labels. Since 1* of a face angle being off is a full 10* on the label (or face), you don't really need to be very accurate measuring the angle of the mark on the face. An eyeball estimate will be accurate enough.

 

[Orville]

that makes sense, from the bottom groove on each side of the clubface is 90 degrees if the top middle is 0. so if you're in the middle it would be 4.5 degrees. i think...

[Stuart_G]

It's not really purely linear. Just think, I know it's impossible but if the line was at *90, it wouldn't mean adjust the lie 9*. But the point is the bigger the angle, the more error has crept in. If it were me, and if it shows more than 2* adjustment needed, I'd just bend them 2* and retest. It's also good to base the decision on multiple hits, not just a single one. And don't forget to pay attention to ball flight.@Howard_Jones may think differently, I don't know.

[cav5]

A lot of it is preference and experiment too. I'm 5'8 and have use built 5irons from 37.25 to 38.5in. I think I play best at 38.5 EOG. Adjust lie after.

Also grips matter. my personal opinion is most grips are too big these days. I use the -1/16" from ping air installed and I'd say its a 2* difference in playing lie angle. Meaning clubs I used to bend 4* flat I only need to bend 2* flat.

[HitEmTrue]

@Orville I'm 6'5" and for about the last 8 years have played Ping i20 maroon dot irons +1". According to Ping's color code chart maroon is 4.5* upright. Also, according to Taylormade's fitting guide, +1" would add an additional 2* of upright to the club, I think. So I think if that's true, I'm actually playing 6.5* upright? Which is probably way too upright. If I look at the Ping color chart as a reference, for my height they recommend +1" and either 2* or 3* upright, which would once again be close to 4* or 5* with the additional +1".
What I'm trying to figure out is if a clubmaker gives an option to make your club 2* upright and also lengthen your club +1", are they going to make that combination a total of 2* upright or are they going to make it 2* AND allow the +1" add another 2* in addition to the aforementioned 2*?My understanding is that Ping adjusts the lie angle of the club itself if the shaft is longer/shorter than what they consider to be standard. So if they build the club with a longer shaft, they will bend the club itself flatter, so that the effective lie is the same. Or at least what they consider to be the same.
All that said, dynamic fitting is most important.
This not being able to edit a quote is a pain...and pasting more than one paragraph in to a "quote" section doesn't work, either.

[Orville]

that's good info! can anyone else corroborate this? because if i was 6.5 or 7 degrees upright that would seem insane. 4.5 or 5 would make more sense seeing as most online charts suggest 3* and also +1, which would effectively be 5*...or virtually the same as Ping if they are doing as you say they do.

 

FYI you can edit posts...I just figured this out myself. In the top right corner of your post there is an asterisk/settings icon; click it and the option of "edit" appears.

[HitEmTrue]

FYI you can edit posts@Orville, you can't edit quotes. Up until a few months ago, I could "quote" your post, and then edit it down so that the only thing we were discussing was that one little snippet. Now it has to be done manually, using the carat symbol and copy/paste.
As to the other question, see the following thread (post 13). Further down the thread, he says that he is a Ping fitter:

 https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/13423988#Comment_13423988

( edit )
Now that's a new (or old?) feature. It didn't expand that link to show it's contents.

[Howard_Jones]

We cant avoid re-testing to make sure, the labels only helps us to get "close" or where we think we ends up, but since a lie angle change means the grip is delivered higher or lower than it was, we cant be 100% sure of that our change will move us to that point with a accuracy of 100%...its just like with all other club specs, we have expectations to what changes we will see...but dont always get that, since all parameters we change, makes a influence on something, and the consequence of messing with that something can never be predicted with a accuracy of 100% for humans. A change of lie with 2* changes SW value with 0.5 SWP so its not only lie angles or grip height we mess with here, we also change shaft angle during the swing....so all changes we do makes a influence on another parameter, and how that works as a sum is more than a label can handle, but it gets us close, sometimes all the way.

[Orville]

Thanks. I read most of that thread as the OP's measurements were very similar to mine. It seems that the conclusion is that if Ping makes 3 custom sets of clubs all at various lengths, if they all have a maroon dot, they will all have the same lie angle. The confusion part is if you hit them in a store and start swapping out shafts and colors, the same would not be true since all of the colors in a store are fit for that color/lie angle only at standard length.

[HitEmTrue]

@Orville It seems that the conclusion is that if Ping makes 3 custom sets of clubs all at various lengths, if they all have a maroon dot, they will all have the same lie angle. If you were to measure the lie angle on each club head, they would NOT have the same lie angle in that scenario.

[Orville]

What I meant and/or interpreted was that any shaft length and a maroon dot combination will play at the advertised maroon dot lie angle, I think? If you compared only the heads with no shaft that would not be true since each would have been bent differently to achieve the maroon dot lie angle with a shaft in each separate scenario. Right? Or is that backwards?

"All of PINGs color codes are effective lie angles, which essentially means how upright or flat it will play based on length."

 

[HitEmTrue]

Yes, that is correct. Except there is no "advertised maroon dot angle", or for any other color, since the colors are used to create effective lie angles in relation to each other.

 

[Orville]

 

did this tonight at my golf store...I was a little rushed not wanting anyone to say anything to me but it seemed like the lie was pretty good, however I was hitting way inside the center of the clubface. Anyone care to anyalyze? Haha I don't know what this means!

[Howard_Jones]

Non of them is "neutral", but your delivery of the club is highly variable, and a larger issue than a lie angle thats maybe 1* off.

By the book - heel side = to long or too heavy, but a rusty swing should not be used to judge any of it, so try this again during the spring when your swing is like it normally is.

[Orville]

Hi Howard, thanks for your response. To be honest, I don't know that I'm going to give much better results, heh. It's hard to tell with hitting off of a mat, being rushed and hitting into a net with no trackman or computer feedback, but the feeling I got from several of the balls I hit felt solid enough. Regardless, let's just assume it doesn't get better results for me, are you saying I might have a club too long and/or too upright, or? I would just like to understand if you saw me hit the heel pictures 100 times in a row, what would be your assumption?

[Howard_Jones]

The only one center of the face impact you made, did not look bad at all for lie angles, so the others where lie angle seems off, is most likely from your swing where your hands was in a different position, moving both impact and made lie angle off from neutral. Thats my thinking about that, so for now, dont worry to much, wait until you have started this season and your swing is back to "normal", then we can look it all over.

Heel impact is by the book a club thats to long or to heavy if its tech related, but swing issues can cause the same, and since your swing is rusty now, i assume its swing related.

But, let me ask, whats your wrist to floor with golf shoes on, and what specs are your irons? WTF can only give us a starting point for testing, but ive seen many that plays standard but should have played 2/8" to 0.5" shorter....

If you look into my DIY driver tune up, you find a guide for how to judge both play length and weight, so if you cant wait, look into that and try off the tips you find there, it might improve impact position if its tech related..Its written for drivers, but everything is the same for the other clubs when we talk length, weight and balance.https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

 

[Sean2]

I am 6'5" and have relatively short arms. My clubs play at +2-inches and are 3º upright. That 3º upright is based off of a standard lie angle, or so I was told.

[Stuart_G]

 

At +2", I'd be concerned about the swing weight being too heavy. Have you ever had the swing weights checked?

And +2" is a lot even for someone whose 6' 5" and has short arms. I'm not saying it must be a bad fit, but not all fitters fit for length the same way and not always as effectively either - that's why Howard asked for your wrist to floor measurement. It will reflect not only your height but also your arm length. If you don't remember what it was from the fitting, it's not hard to check yourself.

 

[ChaosTheory]

HitEmTrue is correct about Ping. A maroon dot standard length and a maroon dot one inch longer will have different lie angles. I don’t think other companies do that, though.

[Orville]

I think we are saying the opposite in that no matter the length of the shaft, if Ping builds it then all maroon dot club/shaft combos will end up with the same lie angle. Only if you removed the heads of each would they have different lie angles. Are you saying the same or the opposite?

[Orville]

Thanks! WTF is a little under 38", and I'm 6'5". Taking into account your comments and the link you provided, it appears I may either need to go down to a +.5" OR lose some swing weight. Is that clubface weight or shaft weight? I current play the i20 irons with True Temper Gold shafts at +1". If I look at most of the guide charts on the internet they put me right on the edge of +1" and +.5" and 3 degrees upright, which is guess is a net uprightedness of 5* and 4* respectively once you lengthen the shaft. I'm really wondering if I should go down to +.5" from the +1" I am at now...

 

Either way it seems like the net resulting club of around 4.5 degrees upright is fairly accurate from a lie perspective for me.

[HitEmTrue]

 

They do NOT have the same lie angle, with the heads on or off the shafts. If you set them next to each other, the lie angle would be different.

They call it the same effective lie angle, which is not the same as having the same real lie angle.

 

[HitEmTrue]

 point is when they suggest 3* upright and +1" they are technically saying they will build a 5* upright club for me...at least I think that's what I understand from all of this.

Other manufacturers would use a plus 3 degree head and simply put a longer shaft in it, or bend a club head to plus 3 from whatever their standard lie angle might be. Putting a longer shaft in the club doesn’t change the lie angle. It makes the club longer.

But there is no reason to overthink this.

[Orville]

Yes, this is what I meant. I forgot to throw in the word "effective." Basically if they make you a club whatever length you get the dot color will be the correct lie from their chart. And Snowman was suggesting other manufacturers do the opposite, which I assume means if you select 3* upright and +1" then they are going to make you a 5* upright club...I think that's what he is saying?

[Orville]

Are you sure? This is from Taylormade's club fitting website:

 

"Another good rule of thumb when deciding on proper club length is every ½" added to the standard length of a club will in return make the club play 1* more upright. Every 1/2" subtracted will in return make the club play 1* flatter."

https://www.taylormadegolfpreowned.com/custom/clubfitting.aspx