Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Bradley is a proponent of 'hitting' in lieu of 'swinging'. When you are a hitter you are far more likely to purposely move body parts into certain positions, unlike a swinger. Swingers are free-flowing (e.g. swinging a weight on the end of a string) whereas hitters are manipulators (e.g. lumberjacks swinging an axe). -Nail_It

 

Throwing arms out and in front has little to do with either being a swinger or a hitter. Both swing types can screw all that up. Also the wisdom & advice to pull on club "along the shaft" is something that applies to "hitters" as well. Getting the trail arm straightened is a key move to proper shallowing of club. By pulling along shaft line you invariably straighten trail arm.

 

Hitters get hand speed up, faster & sooner than swingers. Swingers hit peak in a more gradual, progressive way. The difference is in the application of acceleration. Early peak (Nick Price) or late peak (Ernie Els) and in some cases dual (Greg Norman) are generally how it breaks down.. I'm dating myself with those examples, lol, but if you look at more modern players it still holds true and they really are not looking all that different at key positions. The cocktail & amplitude of movements may vary but a guy like Louis O. still fires his arms out front a lot faster than one might think.

 

"Also, the wisdom & advice to pull on club "along the shaft" is something that applies to "hitters" as well" - but most amateur golfers tend not to pull on the club 'along the shaft', which is the very problem that Dan Martin addresses in his videos. 

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

"Also, the wisdom & advice to pull on club "along the shaft" is something that applies to "hitters" as well" - but most amateur golfers tend not to pull on the club 'along the shaft', which is the very problem that Dan Martin addresses in his videos. 

Okay but it's a problem for both hitters and swingers, so is getting arms out in front of torso. 

[tgreenwood11]

I think your golf swing can become more stable if you pull the club back with with your right side and then pull through with your left side.  Why?   A pulling action on both sides gives you more control of the club.  Ask yourself this:  Is it easier to pull your golf cart in a straight line or to push it?  

[Nard_S]

I'm continually surprised on just how all encompassing and integrated the swing is. A left hip that clears beautifully makes the right side look pretty darn good. Strong back requires strong legs. Left hand has to be as powerful as right and so on. It's dangerous to be too....anything. I've found if I'm trying to fix or improve, the answer 80% of time is where I never would think to look  in on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd place.

[PJ1120]

Is "swinging" a lead side motion as opposed to "hitting" being a right arm thrust?

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, Nail_It said:

 

...but most amateur golfers tend not to pull on the club 'along the shaft', which is the very problem that Dan Martin addresses in his videos. 

 

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Okay but it's a problem for both hitters and swingers, so is getting arms out in front of torso. 

 

As demonstrated by Brendon DeVore of Be Better Golf, the difference in Dan Martin's training device as seen by the angle of the rope at the handle in these two images (indicating the direction of force being applied to the handle by the hands) is both telling and very effective pertaining to 'what not to do' versus 'what needs to be done'. While the first image is about as bad as it could possible be (force being applied at 90° from ideal) the second image is much better.

 

Amateur golfers tend to want to use brute strength to swing move the club, which includes an over-abundance of shoulders, arms and hands...and right arm and hand in particular. If they would just casually and smoothly pull the clubshaft lengthwise with their lead hand (much like the image on the right) downward in a circular arc to where their hands are about waist high they would be totally amazed what automatically happens. As Dan Martin says - when it gets to there; You can just 'let it ride'.  

 

  

[jons1]

[GreatStrike]

52 minutes ago, PJ1120 said:

Is "swinging" a lead side motion as opposed to "hitting" being a right arm thrust?

 

In simple terms - yes. 

 

A 'swinging' golf swing only needs lead side action, with the trail arm only providing structure and support. A 'swinging' golf swing is a centrifugal-centripetal force swing which has a passive release action. A 'swinging' golf swing does not involve using the trail side to make a pushing action, which a hitter uses when he contracts his right tricep to straighten his bent right arm to apply push force to the lead hand.  A 'swinging' swing uses passive centrifugal-centripetal force for the release action - in other words no trail side (arm, elbow, forearm, wrist, hand) force is needed. The golfer simply pulls the grip's butt end with only his lead hand in a lengthwise (longitudinal) direction which follows a circular arc into the downswing. Once the golfer's hands get down to around waist high the larger circular arc becomes a small circular arc and that's when the magic really happens. Centrifugal-centripetal force really takes over at that point where the golfer couldn't add any extra oomph even if he wanted to. He'd be hard-pressed to even alter the strike very much except maybe to hit a 'hold-off fade' using extra left hand grip pressure. The golfer does not need to use any muscular activity whatsoever to release the club when it get down to the mid to late downswing, nor does he need to use any muscular activity to square the clubface. The club release and clubface squaring happens automatically and naturally by centrifugal-centripetal force action.  

 

The roll of the lead arm/forearm occurs naturally and automatically in a 'swinging' golf swing without any conscious effort, however I believe the trail arm does help the release simply due to the trail arm's weight as it naturally (passively) straightens in the late downswing.   

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

I'm continually surprised on just how all encompassing and integrated the swing is. A left hip that clears beautifully makes the right side look pretty darn good. Strong back requires strong legs. Left hand has to be as powerful as right and so on. It's dangerous to be too....anything. I've found if I'm trying to fix or improve, the answer 80% of time is where I never would think to look  in on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd place.

 

I think with a 'swinging' golf swing, which is basically a left arm only golf swing with the right arm adding structure and support, it only takes a handful of requirements to produce a sound golf swing - bend at the waist, rotate your shoulders and lift the left arm a little bit, make sure the left arm remains reasonably straight for a good radius, have a reasonably flat left wrist at the top, and gently pull on the club lengthwise to guide it into a circular arc for a few feet of travel in the downswing...and then the rest happens in a flash - then pose for the camera.

 

For the most part the backswing can be done all sorts of weird ways - just look at Matthew Wolff or Jim Furyk. It's what it looks like at the top that counts. What it looks like at the top is what matters most. Then from the top it's either made or it's lost right there. Get it right and you're a hero, but do it wrong and you're a zero. In my view nothing else matters - the reason I say that is because all I have to do two things - point my clubshaft parallel left of my target (which by the way does not need to be parallel to the ground at the top) and then gently and smoothly pull on the grip's butt end lengthwise in the exact same direction the club is pointing. If I can do those two things then all I need to do is one more thing which is easy - just keeping pulling the butt end in the circular arc for a few feet until centrifugal-centripetal force takes over. 

 

We all see amateur golfers using every fiber in their body to swing their golf club, or to hold a position, or to add arm speed, or to add clubhead speed, or to square the clubface, or whatever it is they try to do... Most of them unfortunately can't make the same error-prone golf swing twice in a row. If they would learn a 'swinging' golf swing they'd quickly learn how easy it is to strike shot after shot after shot and control their distances, accuracy and ball flight like a machine. It's truly not that difficult if you know what to do, which for most people it is counterintuitive. The good players learned what needs to happen from the very beginning of their downswing. If they have a 'swinging' golf swing it's really just that three feet of circular arc travel. That's 99% of their golf swing - besides fundamentals it's all they need to think about - baked to perfection and delivered with a bow! Besides getting the club on-plane and pointing correctly at the top the good player is really only concerned with that three feet in the downswing - the most important being the very start of the downswing. The Dan Martin videos nailed it. If you are struggling to find a golf swing that really works, you owe it to yourself to give it a try.            

[Nard_S]

5 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

 

As demonstrated by Brendon DeVore of Be Better Golf, the difference in Dan Martin's training device as seen by the angle of the rope at the handle in these two images (indicating the direction of force being applied to the handle by the hands) is both telling and very effective pertaining to 'what not to do' versus 'what needs to be done'. While the first image is about as bad as it could possible be (force being applied at 90° from ideal) the second image is much better.

 

Amateur golfers tend to want to use brute strength to swing move the club, which includes an over-abundance of shoulders, arms and hands...and right arm and hand in particular. If they would just casually and smoothly pull the clubshaft lengthwise with their lead hand (much like the image on the right) downward in a circular arc to where their hands are about waist high they would be totally amazed what automatically happens. As Dan Martin says - when it gets to there; You can just 'let it ride'.  

 

  

On the left the guy completely unhinges his right wrist. So yeah, extreme example it  is.

 

The surprising thing I've come to be aware of is just how hard and fast advanced swings fire the hands "along the shaft". Smooth & gentle works too but getting hand speed up faster & sooner in the down swing actually makes a swing look more "swinger like" even though the very intent is more "hitter like".

[Lefthook]

19 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

Bradley might be touching vaguely on the periphery of what I've written about (i.e. a 'swinging' swing), but it's unclear at best and not on-point at all to what I have posted about. 

 

I think Bradley's video was likely to help golfers that get all tensed-up or have the belief that they should keep their upper arms and elbows really close to their body, which usually restricts their arm swing - even in a hitter. That almost always causes the golfer to muscle the club using manipulative arm and hand force instead of 'swinging' the club.

 

For what it's worth, when you see someone putting something under their armpits, or stuffing something in their armpits, or using straps around their arms, they are usually wanting to promote more of a purpose-driven body rotation type swing, which is a hitters swing. Swingers don't need to do that...and they don't want to do that. Trying to incorporate a purpose-driven body rotation in a 'swinging' golf swing is like having two sources of power coming from different directions (e.g. weight swinging on the end of a string and then grabbing the middle of the string trying to add additional speed). Also, in a 'swinging' swing I think the body tends to react and sequence much more naturally, whereas a hitter tends to need to put, place or hold various parts of his body into positions, which is not as natural.            

 

Bradley is a proponent of 'hitting' in lieu of 'swinging'. When you are a hitter you are far more likely to purposely move body parts into certain positions, unlike a swinger. Swingers are free-flowing (e.g. swinging a weight on the end of a string) whereas hitters are manipulators (e.g. lumberjacks swinging an axe). 

 

For your information Bradley Hughes is/was a protégé of John 'Lag' Erickson (a.k.a. 'Lag Pressure') who ran a website called Advanced Ball Striking, which strongly favored a 'hitting' style golf swing he tried to capitalize on through his website. He (Erickson), who played a few years on the Canadian Tour, created a legend of himself as a great ball striker on the likes of Ben Hogan, and Bradley Hughes endorsed his teachings and helped Erickson with his website forum using the profile name 'twomasters' derived from his two Australian Masters wins. 'Lag' claimed that with his hitting technique (he was a 'swinger' of the golf club when on tour) he could retain the bent-back condition in his clubshaft all the way through impact, thus the nickname 'Lag Pressure'. He sold teaching/training 'modules' to his students that sought to swing like him. Lag's students and followers fell-off sharply over time because his technique and training materials just didn't prove to satisfy many people or work out for them. I don't think there is much interest anymore in what he offered. I have not heard his name mentioned in many years.  

 

The Dan Martin videos are spot-on when it comes to explaining what the golfer needs to do when 'swinging' a golf club.  

      

I think in this context it needs to be said that Erickson's version if hitting is very different from the version in TGM. Erickson came from the west cost, with Ben Doyle as a coach. Erickson's hitting is a very connected turn, with active wrists that probably doesn't make any difference speed wise but may firm up the structure.

 

Erickson has a preference for a motion where he can make an effort, as opposed to the Ben Doyle type that requires relaxed "oily" wrists to perform. The ability to make an effort is a common denominator with TGM hitting, but otherwise the two are very different.

 

Doyle taught a "loose" swinging motion pretty much like the one you seem to advocate, but TGM has options for swinging. One of them is the use of extensior action. HK talked about the "power package" in TGM - a pretty robust structure consisting of the triangle shoulders and arms.  Where a hitter typically will use the trail arm to drive the club forward, the swinger will use it to passively extend to keep the hands where they need to be to get the most leverage from the shoulder turn.

 

I do think there are issues with the TGM hitting patter ... it seemed like H Kelley thought that the power was delivered through the trail hand, mainly. Something that is only possible with a lead shoulder that doesn't move.  There are inconsistencies - or at least unclarity - in the book with regards to how swingers power the club too. In reality, hitters swing too, but perhaps they replace a bit of the swing with a hitting motion. 

 

IMO, swingers can axe it, but their axing will be at parallel with he club-face as if the heel of the club was the sharp end of the axe. The club will square up towards the ball by means of a sequenced release. It's an open to closed motion.  A hitter's motion will be much more "square to square" effort, where the force from the trail hand is directed out of the club face toward, through and past the ball.

 

  

[KMeloney]

To be clear, the main idea that I took from the Hughes vid (that made it relevant to this conversation, I thought) was the idea that with the hands going "out" more, he's maintaining the pull on the grip end, right? The shaft is shallowed, and his hands are maintaining a wide arc, and there's a clear roll-release promoted... Or so it appears to me. Otherwise, with the hands in close to the body, I think the club would be too steep, and the release would have to be manufactured, right? 

[Lefthook]

That’s a good point, imo.

[GreatStrike]

5 hours ago, KMeloney said:

To be clear, the main idea that I took from the Hughes vid (that made it relevant to this conversation, I thought) was the idea that with the hands going "out" more, he's maintaining the pull on the grip end, right? The shaft is shallowed, and his hands are maintaining a wide arc, and there's a clear roll-release promoted... Or so it appears to me. Otherwise, with the hands in close to the body, I think the club would be too steep, and the release would have to be manufactured, right? 

 

To be honest, I don't think one should be thinking about moving the hands outward, or even purposely shallowing the club for that matter. It may be okay to explain to a student what the end desire should be, but that's the extent of it in my opinion.

 

The distance of the hands away from the body (and shallowing) should happen automatically based on how/when the arms, shoulders and torso start moving and how forceful they move or unwind. If you want to setup the perfect scenario to cast the club or to make an over-the-top downswing move just start the downswing by unwinding too aggressively or trying to add speed to the arms. How far out the arms move also depends on how tall the golfer is and how long his arms are, as well as what length club he's swinging. One person's hand/arm distance during the downswing may be very close to his body whereas someone else's hand/arm distance may be much further away - and they each could display good form or not display good form, depending...  The fact of the matter is, a golfer's arms should not be put, placed, held or forced into positions, they should be allowed to 'swing' naturally based on their weight and rotational forces.

 

I'm sure you've seen the little Chinese rattle drum toys that have a shaft that is spun between your fingertips - the faster you spin the shaft the further out the little arms move out away from the drive shaft. The same with a chair swing carousel ride. It's much the same with the arms in a golf swing...unless you are a hitter in which case you tend to purposely put, place or hold body parts in certain positions.

 

Since this topic has a centrifugal - centripetal force element to it - here's a few items to think about as they pertain to the golf swing. The further out you are from the center [drive or shaft] when rotating the faster you will go. Just like the outside of a record player platter moves faster than right beside the spindle which is in the center, yet both the spindle and outer edge of the platter are spinning at the same rpm. When the rattle drum or carousel ride first starts spinning the drum arms or the riders 'lag' behind, but only until they match-up in rpm speed with the drive shaft. 

 

In a 'swinging' golf swing the golfer uses centrifugal-centripetal force to their advantage. On the other hand, in a 'hitting' golf swing the golfer actually fights off centrifugal-centripetal force so he can use his physical or muscular force. In terms of a 'swinging' golf swing, what you do early in the golf downswing to get the centrifugal-centripetal forces started pays off magnanimously in the late downswing...where you couldn't help, alter or add to the action (regardless of your strength) even if you wanted to because the force is so strong. Like swinging a weight around on the end of a string, what you do early to get the centrifugal-centripetal forces started is 95% of the golf swing.       

 

If I asked you to relax your arms and spin around in a tight circle your arms would extend away from your body x amount. If I asked that you spin around faster they would extend a little further away from your body. It's the same in a golf swing - that's one reason why the hands are higher as they go through impact. If you purposely held your arms in tight or you purposely extended them way out away from your body, then you have messed up the 'natural' experiment. If you choose to purposely put, place or hold your arms in fictitious or made-up positions in your golf swing you have now taken away what was meant to be a 'natural' reaction. You don't put, place or hold your arms when walking or running - you let (allow) them to move as they wish. In my opinion that is how they should be allowed to move in a golf swing.   

 

  

 

       

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

Power In The Golf Swing Comes From Creating Centripetal Force

                       The Swing Is So Powerful Yet So Fragile

A golf swing is a powerful and fragile thing. This dichotomy lies in the amazing amount of speed, force and energy a human can create when they whirl a clubhead around their body.

 

 

In a split second, however, a very small amount of force can derail a swing and send the ball flying or curving way off the intended direction.

 

The power in a golf swing lies in our ability to create momentum using centripetal force. This force comes initially from the turning of our torso and then is dramatically amplified by the club pivoting around our wrist joint. The fragility of the golf swing lies in the latter. 

 

You see, the entire length of the golf club is supposed to freely rotate around our wrist joint as the last phase of the swing into impact. 

 

The complication is that all the muscles you use in your hands to grasp things on a daily basis can distort this natural swinging force that keeps the club stable and on path. The 'rigidity' of the golf club is what makes it possible to distort the swing so easily. Ninety-nine percent of all golfers do not understand this concept.

  

If I simply give you a ball attached to the end of a rope and ask you to swing it around your body, you will rapidly realize that your hands cannot add or interfere with the swing. There is no rigidity allowing your hands to squeeze and interfere with the swinging energy. The force is automatic. It is a physical law. It never changes. True skill in golf is learning how to align this simple swinging energy to run into the ball. Once you can understand and feel how this works, you are well on your way to making a hard game simple.

 

by Dan Martin - Class-A PGA Professional Director of Instruction

 

► Reference

 

 

If the golf club used a flexible cable instead of a rigid clubshaft, learning to 'swing' a golf club the way it was actually designed to be used would become much easier.  

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus

[Zitlow]

The arms and hands are conduits, any tension impedes the flow of energy to the club head. 

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

The arms and hands are conduits, any tension impedes the flow of energy to the club head. 

 

It's actually a golfer using 'strength' that impedes the flow of energy to the clubhead. Tension is good, just not strength - like it is desirable for a clubshaft to be under tension, the more tension the better - which is what happens to the clubshaft in a centrifugal - centripetal force 'swinging' golf swing.  

 

It's often said that you shouldn't have any tension in your swing. This isn't true. You need tension - the thing you don't need is strength. There's a big difference between the two, and if you can't distinguish between them, it may be stopping you from reaching your potential.

 

To get the feeling of both tension and strength, simply stand up and hang your arms at your side. To feel tension, extend your arms downward to the ground as far as they go. As you do this, you will feel tension in your arms because they are stretched to their longest point. Now to feel strength, make two fists and squeeze as hard as you can. These are two totally different feelings that have two totally different effects on your swing.

 

This feeling of strength is what most inexperienced players feel when they hit the ball and they mistake it for tension. They get this feeling because they're trying to hit the ball so hard that their arm muscles lock up. This feeling of strength is deceiving though because it also gives the person the feeling of power. If this feeling of strength is removed, the inexperienced player then thinks that they are not going hit the ball as far so, they immediately they tighten up again.

 

This feeling of strength in your arms will do two things to destroy your swing:

1. It will narrow your swing arc because the feeling of strength makes your arm muscles contract or buckle through and past impact. The narrower your swing arc, the slower the club will swing.

2. It will inhibit the hinging and re-hinging of your wrists also resulting in a slower clubhead speed. The harder you hit, the tighter your wrists will be, which will also slow the club down.

 

So how is the clubhead speed increased if you feel tension?

 

1. To achieve the tension I am talking about, you must allow the arms to be stretched out to their fullest through and past impact. To stretch them out means your muscles cannot be turned on. You have to keep them loose. To understand the increase in arc width, imagine that your golf swing is like picking up a weight and swinging it in a circle on a piece of string. The weight represents your club, the string is your arms, and your body is your hand that is twirling it. As the weight swings, the piece of string will get tense. This is because the weight is stretching it to its longest point. This maximizes its arc. It's this wide arc that allows the weight to swing its fastest. Remember, feeling strength in your arms pulls the clubhead closer to you because it contracts your arm muscles. If your arm muscles contract, it would be like the piece of string getting shorter as you spin the weight not longer. The shorter the piece of string, the slower it will swing.

 

2. Loosening up the arms, and keeping the muscles turn off, will also loosen up your wrists. To understand how the wrist hinge will help to create clubhead speed, imagine opening a door with rusty hinges and one with well-oiled hinges. Obviously, the well-oiled hinges will allow the door swing open and closed faster. If your wrists were "well oiled" it would result in more clubhead speed as well. To get the feeling of wrists that are too tight (rusty hinges), try clenching your fists again. This time pay attention to your wrists and how locked up they become when you feel strength in your arms. So allowing the arms to stretch out through and past impact not only maximizes the arc width, but it also loosens your wrists.

 

Good golfers don't try to add force or speed during impact because they've learned it is ineffective to do so.  

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nail_It

[PJ1120]

Mike McNary told me one time he was a "switter". In his endless belt video he said he was trying to straighten his right arm as fast as possible. 

[GreatStrike]

28 minutes ago, PJ1120 said:

Mike McNary told me one time he was a "switter". In his endless belt video he said he was trying to straighten his right arm as fast as possible. 

 

Being a 'switter', a combination of 'swinging' and 'hitting' is never good.  The two protocols are so extreme, they are for all purposes mutually exclusive. The natural physics action from centrifugal-centripetal force in a 'swinging' golf swing due to the 'endless belt' (late downswing) that produces dramatic speed and force cannot be helped or aided by trying to add to that force. That's why Dan Martin said that once the handle gets down below the waist (at the level of the 'endless belt') just 'let it ride'...because what's about to happen is on full automatic mode and is explosive beyond imagination.

 

Here are the differences in swinging versus hitting protocols. As you can see they are all mutually exclusive, thus trying to incorporate elements from one protocol into the other causes pure catastrophic results, but that doesn't stop the typical amateur golfer to try, and try and continue to try to do just that...  

 

Swinging vs. Hitting

 

Pull (from the lead side) vs. Pull (from the trail side)

Longitudinal Acceleration vs. Radial Acceleration

Lengthwise or Telescoping or Longitudinal (Stretching Shaft) vs. Bending or Pre-Stressed (Pressuring Side of Shaft)

Acceleration ‘At’ the Ball vs. Acceleration ‘Through’ the Ball

Rope vs. Axe Handle

Cracking a Whip vs. Driving a Hammer

Centrifugal-Centripetal Force vs. Muscular Thrust

Whirl Back vs. Muscular Carry Back

Quick vs. Strong

Stretched Tensioned Muscles vs. Contracted Muscles

Left Leg Post Up vs. Right Leg Drive

Loose vs. Stiff

Pitch Basic Stroke vs. Punch Basic Stroke

Pivot Based Rotation vs. Thrust Based Drive

Right Shoulder Flywheel vs. Right Shoulder Backstop (Launching Pad)

Pivot Thrust (Momentum Transfer) vs. Power Package Thrust

End vs. Top

Dump on the Ball vs. Clubhead Throws the Ball

Full Circular Arc from Top vs. Straight at the Ball Cutting Off Arc

Top Arc vs. Straight Line Thrust

Arc of Approach vs. Angle of Approach

Start Down Smoothly vs. Start Down Very Slowly & Heavy

Standard Wrist Action vs. Single Wrist Action

Sequenced Release vs. Simultaneous Release

Right Palm 'On Plane' vs. Plane 'Through' Right Palm

Left Arm for Path & Power vs. Left Arm for Path & Right Arm for Power

Wrist Action vs. Hand Motion

Drag Loading vs. Drive Loading

Throw Out vs. Drive Out

Start Up and Release Swivel vs. No Swivel (Except After Follow-Through)

Wrist Throw vs. Right Arm Throw

Wheel Rim vs. Wheel Track

Horizontal Hinging vs. Angled Hinging

Full Roll Feel vs. No Roll Feel

Draw vs. Fade

On-Line vs. Cross Line

Plane Line Rotation vs. Grip Rotation

Soft Hands vs. Firmer Hands

      

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nail_It

[moehogan]

Four barrel hitting (4-1-2-3). It’s swinging then hitting. Worked ok for this fella ...
 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by moehogan

[GreatStrike]

21 minutes ago, moehogan said:

Four barrel hitting (4-1-2-3). It’s swinging then hitting. Worked ok for this fella ...

 

Most of that TGM stuff should be trashed.

 

No one knows for sure what Hogan did...nor what his [so-called] secret was. 

[Nard_S]

36 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

Being a 'switter', a combination of 'swinging' and 'hitting' is never good.  The two protocols are so extreme, they are for all purposes mutually exclusive. The natural physics action from centrifugal-centripetal force in a 'swinging' golf swing due to the 'endless belt' (late downswing) that produces dramatic speed and force cannot be helped or aided by trying to add to that force. That's why Dan Martin said that once the handle gets down below the waist (at the level of the 'endless belt') just 'let it ride'...because what's about to happen is on full automatic mode and is explosive beyond imagination.

 

Here are the differences in swinging versus hitting protocols. As you can see they are all mutually exclusive, thus trying to incorporate elements from one protocol into the other causes pure catastrophic results, but that doesn't stop the typical amateur golfer to try, and try and continue to try to do just that...  

 

Swinging vs. Hitting

 

Pull (from the lead side) vs. Pull (from the trail side)

Longitudinal Acceleration vs. Radial Acceleration

Lengthwise or Telescoping or Longitudinal (Stretching Shaft) vs. Bending or Pre-Stressed (Pressuring Side of Shaft)

Acceleration ‘At’ the Ball vs. Acceleration ‘Through’ the Ball

Rope vs. Axe Handle

Cracking a Whip vs. Driving a Hammer

Centrifugal-Centripetal Force vs. Muscular Thrust

Whirl Back vs. Muscular Carry Back

Quick vs. Strong

Stretched Tensioned Muscles vs. Contracted Muscles

Left Leg Post Up vs. Right Leg Drive

Loose vs. Stiff

Pitch Basic Stroke vs. Punch Basic Stroke

Pivot Based Rotation vs. Thrust Based Drive

Right Shoulder Flywheel vs. Right Shoulder Backstop (Launching Pad)

Pivot Thrust (Momentum Transfer) vs. Power Package Thrust

End vs. Top

Dump on the Ball vs. Clubhead Throws the Ball

Full Circular Arc from Top vs. Straight at the Ball Cutting Off Arc

Top Arc vs. Straight Line Thrust

Arc of Approach vs. Angle of Approach

Start Down Smoothly vs. Start Down Very Slowly & Heavy

Standard Wrist Action vs. Single Wrist Action

Sequenced Release vs. Simultaneous Release

Right Palm 'On Plane' vs. Plane 'Through' Right Palm

Left Arm for Path & Power vs. Left Arm for Path & Right Arm for Power

Wrist Action vs. Hand Motion

Drag Loading vs. Drive Loading

Throw Out vs. Drive Out

Start Up and Release Swivel vs. No Swivel (Except After Follow-Through)

Wrist Throw vs. Right Arm Throw

Wheel Rim vs. Wheel Track

Horizontal Hinging vs. Angled Hinging

Full Roll Feel vs. No Roll Feel

Draw vs. Fade

On-Line vs. Cross Line

Plane Line Rotation vs. Grip Rotation

Soft Hands vs. Firmer Hands

      

This is nonsense.

 

[GreatStrike]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

This is nonsense.

 

 

What is nonsense? 

[Nard_S]

29 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

What is nonsense? 

The highly arbitrary list of "vs" listed in "swinging vs hitting:"

Where are on Earth did that pile of garbage thought come from?

Ex: Draw vs fade? What proof is there that faders are nothing more than hitters? 

Ex: Wheel Rim vs Wheel Track? WTF?

Ex: Acceleration 'At' vs Acceleration  'thru'? JT is a hitter, does anyone think he does not swing thru?

 

I can go on, but much of the list is drivel.

[GreatStrike]

24 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

The highly arbitrary list of "vs" listed in "swinging vs hitting:"

Where are on Earth did that pile of garbage thought come from?

Ex: Draw vs fade? What proof is there that faders are nothing more than hitters? 

Ex: Wheel Rim vs Wheel Track? WTF?

Ex: Acceleration 'At' vs Acceleration  'thru'? JT is a hitter, does anyone think he does not swing thru?

 

I can go on, but much of the list is drivel.

 

The list is compiled of traits or characteristics for swinging versus hitting. Some of the terminology is TGM related, which I don't necessarily follow and some of which I don't even agree with. That said, I do not know who came out with the list, but for the most part I agree with many of the aspects listed. Your first comment was; "This is nonsense", which implied that you disagreed with the entire list. So, I'm glad to know that you do not think all of the list is drivel.

 

I certainly will not defend the list in its entirety, but a lot of the list I definitely believe has credence among most experts in the golfing world. We may actually agree with one another on practically the same items. As is always the case, we have the right to our own opinions regardless whether they are correct or not...  

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Nail_It

[Nard_S]

If you read thru each item, it all comes off as trolling  mockumentry verbiage. 

[GreatStrike]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

If you read thru each item, it all comes off as trolling  mockumentry verbiage. 

 

Much of it very pertinent... 

[Nard_S]

Just now, Nail_It said:

 

Much of it very pertinent... 

Pertinent to a line of Bull.

 

WTF is 'horizontal hinging vs angled hinging' and how is a swinger adopting one exclusively and a hitter adopting the other exclusively?

 

Massive pile of manure.

[GreatStrike]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Pertinent to a line of Bull.

 

WTF is 'horizontal hinging vs angled hinging' and how is a swinger adopting one exclusively and a hitter adopting the other exclusively?

 

Massive pile of manure.

 

You may want to learn the difference from someone that is an advocate of TGM methodology and understands what Homer Kelley articulated from his studies and findings. You're asking and complaining about TGM terminology, and wanting to argue with me about it. I've already told you that I don't necessarily follow TGM and some of it I don't even agree with. So, you might want to find someone that is well-versed in TGM so they can enlighten you. I'm the wrong person for that...   

[GreatStrike]

Nard_S - You may want to ask for help from moehogan about TGM terminology because he stated that Ben Hogan used 'Four barrel hitting (4-1-2-3)', which if I'm not mistaken is very specialized TGM jargon that probably only TGM followers really understand. I feel sure he is one of many that understands the TGM stuff much better than me.