Tiger and persimmon woods

[Adk Jake]

Got to thinking about Tiger's comments the other day about today's clubs vs persimmon woods, and that he's only about 15 yds longer now than he was back in the days when he was still using a persimmon driver, and that he thought most of the difference is in the ball. He further stated the obvious that today's woods are more forgiving and that if he mishit a persimmon driver, he was lucky to get 200 yds out of it.

 

Just wondering how many of you who were playing back in the persimmon days agree with him? I kind of do, maybe a 20 yard difference for me between today's solid tee shot and what I used to get out of the old woods. Course I was younger then too :)

 

Every once in a while, if I'm hitting it crappy off the tee, I'll take an old persimmon driver to the range and practice with it. Makes you really concentrate on hitting it solid on the center of the club. The good ones go pretty far, less carry more roll for me.

 

And, if you want to get some laughs, have someone who's taken up the game since metal woods became popular and have them hit the woodie. They're like, how the heck did people ever play with these things :D

[Shaitan]

That sounds like me lol - just give me a little time to sort it out lol

[ApexGrind]

Hard to tell. I was still using my Apex persimmon driver until about 6 months ago when someone gave me a 983K. I picked up about 30 yards. BUT the shaft is a whole lot longer. I don't think I could hit the persimmon with a shaft that long.

[minteq]

I found an old MacGregor 3 wood in the attic that I used to use when I was young, so I took it to the range, and it took me about 15 minutes to get a decent hit. I let my 17 year old, who is a decent golfer try it, and he could not get mor than 100 yards out of it.

There were a few younger guys there, and they all tried it, most of them said they would have quit if this was the only equipment available.

Makes you really appreciate the equipment made today.

[pggolf66]

a good swing will make it work just fine - we had a long drive contest where a persimmon driver was used and the 2 longest drives (just shy of 300) were from 2 young players who never used persimmon before, no co-incidence either that they were the 2 best players in the tourney

- the old drivers are basically a 3 wood by today's standard with a stronger loft - I agree that they are a great tool for driver practice, use it enough and your swing will be a lot more disciplined.

[mat562]

I think I'm 20 yards longer through the air than I used to be - with persimmon or 1st generation metal woods. And probably 20 yards longer overall too.

I carry my current driver about 265 on average - something that was an enormous clout 15 years back, for any player - and I can carry things now that I never could before. The carry is the big thing with the modern drivers and ball. Downwind, I can carry the ball 40 yards more than I used to, since the ball stays in the air so long and goes so much further.

I think some players have gained an enormous amount from the new technology and some haven't gained as much. I always hit the ball pretty high and carried it (relatively speaking) quite a long way with the old kit. I was always a pretty solid driver too. The modern driver and ball combo has added a bit of length, but hasn't really transformed my game.

Other players I know - who hit the ball low, or who were average drivers of the ball in terms of ballstriking - have been transformed by the modern kit. They get a proper flight, hit them higher, further, straighter, you-name-it. Some people have picked up a genuine 40 yards over what they used to hit, and now are good drivers of the ball, after being distinctly average before. It's not down to them. It's the driver and the ball. Look at someone like Greg Norman in the pro game. Best driver of the ball ever in my opinion, and very long and accurate in his heyday. Now, alright, he's in his 50s - but he gets outdriven by everyone. He's as strong as he ever was, and physically fit, so how has the field caught up?

I don't play competitively these days, but I see people who I used to play against who are different players entirely from 10 years ago. A lot of it is simply down to the ball and having a driver that gives them an extra 40 yards. They're not better swingers or ball strikers. They just put more drives in the fairway, further down the hole and have a shorter iron in their hands. Anyone would play better with that combo.

I know that it's a common thing to say that the modern balls and drivers give a disproportionate amount of assistance to hard-hitters with high clubhead speeds, but it's overlooked how much a short or average hitter benefits from the hot faces, bigger heads and new balls.

There'll always be long hitters. But nowadays it's the norm rather than the exception, and I see technology as having distinctly taken away the advantage that some players used to have through skill and ability. To hit the ball long and straight used to be a big advantage in the old days. Now everyone can do it.

Which is a shame.

[braincramp]

I use a Louisville F2 persimmon driver and a Louisville 3 wood nyblick,both of which are new. The persimmon is every bit as long as my Cleveland HiBore XL when I put good swings on both.I do probaly lose 10-20 yards on mishits but,if I hit my persimmon off the toe it will draw back into the fairway.If I hit my HiBore off the toe I'm in the next fairway.Also there is not a metal fairway wood made that is as easy to hit off the deck as the nyblick.

[XYB34A]

I used a persimmion driver for years. Even played a Powerbilt in the early 90's for about year after the Callaway Big Bertha had come out. The Taylormade Midsize that looked like a bigger version of their 1980's clubs was a dud. I won a local long drive contest in the mid 80's in Charlotte NC, with a persimmion driver. The total carry and roll was 298. I was so nervous the first round that I drank 3 beers until my turn and the second time around I had something. I can remember hitting it 300 plus many times. I used to be a long driver of the ball. Like Mat said. Anyone can hit it long now days. I think for someone that plays fairly often. Then u see them shot in the high 80's now. Just because they can get it out there a bit. Personally I would just as soon see the ball rolled back to the 1989 standard. 290 yards plus or minus 2%. I am sure that this would be very unpopular. But it would level the playing field.
Nothing was more fun than having to hit a rope hook, a super wicked fade or slice even. Or just a plain high draw that hit and ran 30 yards. I think agronomy has something to do with it today. Course seem much lusher than they did years ago.

[ezra76]

IMO if they were still playing persimmon, Tiger would have an even larger gap between himself and the rest of the world. Of course his driver would only see action a couple times the entire tournament and the 2i would be the primary tee club.

I played one day with my dad and used all old clubs from his basement. We were "supposed" to be working on the floor in the basement but stepmom took off and the sun came out. I put together a bag of Nicklaus blades 3-PW, Bobby Jones 1,2,4 woods and a Cash-in putter. I hit the 2wood well and just kept using it. I got 225-235 out of it and man I hit some sharp looking fades with it. I actually scored the same as using my own clubs on a decent day with those. It was the course management that did it. I was thinking more position for a short iron than just trying to blast a driver. I learned a lot that day about course management and it made me better when I played with my own clubs.

Oh, I just recalled what I did on 18, thought I'd share it. I remember I pulled a 4iron out on the 140yd. downhill par 3 and my dad was like "you're gonna take out a window on the clubhouse". I hit a little punch cut with what felt like a 1/4 swing, weight staying all on the front foot, landing just on the front egde, ran up to about 4 feet and made the birdie. That was a great end to a really fun round. I should try it again sometime.

[mat562]

I agree the ball has had a huge impact. And not just when a Bubba watson tee shot lands...

As well as going further, it also goes a lot straighter. When I was growing up, part of becoming a decent player was learning to move the ball around, and fit a tee or iron shot to a hole or green. A skilled driver of the ball could hit a 20 yard fade on one hole, and a 20 yard draw on the next, with a feathered, faded long iron shot in between to get to a tight front-right pin.

Nowadays, you bomb a drive high and straight; float a stock, high mid iron into the green, aiming straight at the flag, and then bust another stock drive down the next fairway.

I still like to work the ball - more than just about anyone I know - and a faded drive for me now moves about 5 yards in the air. Not 20. I can't hit a floaty 1 iron into a green anymore with a bit of left-to-right on it. Mind you, I don't need to. I just hit a high, straight 4 iron from 20 yards nearer and get the same result. The thing I hate is: everyone can hit that shot now. Some of them with a 5 or 6 iron. Not everyone could do it with a 1 iron.

I really think it's a shame since the balls in particular, combined with the drivers, have levelled the playing field and put good ballstrikers at a disadvantage. I see scratch players now, that, honestly, would have been 6 handicappers with the old gear. They hit the ball long and straight; but give them 3 or 4 clubs more into the green and a balata ball..? They wouldn't be shooting 69.

The groove issue gets all the coverage and gets blamed for making the game too easy. But without the drivers and balls people wouldn't be bombing and gouging wedges into the greens. They'd be back hitting a 7 iron and thus taking more care to hit the fairway from the tee - with a club that requires some ballstriking skill just to put it there.

I think one of the best moves for golf wuld be to rein-in clubhead size and to roll back the ball. Bring ballstriking back as a desirable trait and a must to play well.

[nightwalker]

I agree with tiger that the ball has a lot to do with the distance gains, but I think the bigger gain is in shaft technology. I grew up playing persimmion and the "standard" length of a driver was 43", now the average is 45+". If you figure that you get approx. 3-5 miles per hour of clubhead speed for every 1/2" and approx. 2.2 yds per mile per hour, shaft technology alone would be responsible for 13-22 yards of distance. Factor in the ball, and additional 2-5 yds for COR increases, and better fitting options, we should be at least 25-35 yards longer across the board. This doesn't include inproved fitness or instruction, just technological gains. Funny thing though, even though I am more mechanically sound and physically stronger than I was in college, I'm not 30 yards longer than I was then. Progress...

[Swingtheclub]

You know I was longer with Persimmon than I will ever be again with high tech but then again I got old.

I remember when the tour driving average was 255 back then I hit it 265 to 270 average I could carry a three wood about 250 off the deck

Now when the early high tech stuff came out I got longer and then for years did not loose distance as I lost swing speed stuff got longer.

Now I am loosing distance and there is nothing out there high tech enough to help me

The thing I miss most about Persimmon is the feel and the ball workability at the same time I do not miss the occassional drive two fairways off line.

[mat562]

When I started playing, Sandy Lyle was monstrously long. I think he averaged 262 yards per drive in 1987.

Mind you, all the measuring was done with bits of string and a tape measure back then, at one hole per tournament, so it could have been a bit out...

[hoganfan924]

Took a quick check on the stats:

In 1980, the median driving length on tour was 256.7 yds.
In 2007 - 288.6 yds. A 31.9 yd. difference That's a 3 club difference on the approach shot for most of us.

Before some wiseguy flames me claiming that median is wothless and mean would be more appropriate, I've done this before and the difference in the 2 was less than 0.5 yds. (due to the relatively normal distribution and large sample size)

BTW, Sandy Lyle was T46th in 1986 with a 267 yd. avg.

[mat562]

[doffs cap]

[mat562]

Just fished out my programme for the 1987 Lawrence Batley Tournament at Royal Birkdale. August 1987 nd won by a youthful-looking Mark O'Meara.

Lyle was 6th in Europe for driving. I stand corrected hoganfan... 264 yards..

And Faldo was getting up and down from 81% of bunkers..... Wow.

[sergizmo]

[quote name='braincramp' post='826303' date='Dec 16 2007, 09:38 AM']I use a Louisville F2 persimmon driver and a Louisville 3 wood nyblick,both of which are new. The persimmon is every bit as long as my Cleveland HiBore XL when I put good swings on both.I do probaly lose 10-20 yards on mishits but,if I hit my persimmon off the toe it will draw back into the fairway.If I hit my HiBore off the toe I'm in the next fairway.Also there is not a metal fairway wood made that is as easy to hit off the deck as the nyblick.[/quote]

Neat. What shafts are you playing in the Louisville clubs? Do you have the mid launch or high launch version of the F2? Thanks.

[Konrad]

Eventually, all of the people who have played persimmon and balata will move on. I am 16 years old, and I believe that my generation will be the first to have grown up without ever having hit a persimmion driver, and in large part, haven't really played a driver under 400cc's. I have to be honest- I don't know what it was like to play when a well-struck driver went 260 yards, but to me, the game is VERY far from easy as it is. If you want to talk about the entire GAME of golf, there's no way that rolling back the balls, clubs, and golf course setups would benefit the game. I see plenty of golfers in the Myrtle Beach area, and many of them are on vacation, having fun, and many know a lot about the game. And I have yet to see anyone, regardless of age or ability, claim that they were hitting it too far, or that the game was too easy.

Does that mean that I would be opposed to a rollback in the Professional Tours? Yes, I am. What has shown that the game is too easy? What is wrong with Tiger hitting a 320-yard drive? Is it just about records and books and stats? Or is it about the game and the future audience? I can't really answer these questions. The age-old question will never be answered - Is Jack or Tiger better, because the truth is that it doesn't really matter. Jack played with different equipment than Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson, albeit it by smaller margins. But does that justtify the entire rollback of an entire sport to suit some ahem, older, gentlemen who think that Tiger is just too good? I don't think so.

[El Crab]

I didn't grow up on Persimmon, but I've hit them. And while technology has made everything better, I could hit my old War Bird almost as far as my SasQuatch Tour. And I'm at elevation now.

For me, its how far the easy swings go. And how much easier it is to hit the new clubs.

In a related story, when I was in high school I was easily the number one player, but I didn't play on the golf team. I chose to practice on my own (I worked at the golf course they called home, and I beat the "coach" by 10 shots for my 9 hole tryout) instead. One day, I was on the range with my Great Big Bertha, pounding it way past anyone on the team. One of the guys on the team said the only reason I hit it so far was because I had a Ti driver. So to shut the guy up, I went down the line and hit each of their drivers once, including a persimmon and a few women's drivers all about as long. I hit his last, and when I handed it back to him I said simply:

"Yeah, its the club."

[larrybud]

[quote name='Konrad' post='826812' date='Dec 16 2007, 05:49 PM']Does that mean that I would be opposed to a rollback in the Professional Tours? Yes, I am. What has shown that the game is too easy? What is wrong with Tiger hitting a 320-yard drive? Is it just about records and books and stats? Or is it about the game and the future audience? I can't really answer these questions. The age-old question will never be answered - Is Jack or Tiger better, because the truth is that it doesn't really matter. Jack played with different equipment than Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson, albeit it by smaller margins. But does that justtify the entire rollback of an entire sport to suit some ahem, older, gentlemen who think that Tiger is just too good? I don't think so.[/quote]

The "problem" with the now ordinary 320 yard drive is that it's taking a lot of courses out of the mix for tournament play because you can only lengthen a course up to a certain point. There are only a few courses on tour which can play difficult for these guys at 7000 yards. I mean, Tiger just shot -22 at 7085 yards. Even my own club Champsionship this past year played at 7100 yards.

All of that said, I'm against rolling back anything. I think it would be a huge mistake to have a tournament ball. One of the great aspects of golf is that you can go out and buy and play the same equipment that the pros play, and play the same courses, for the most part. If they roll back the ball for tournament play, either you remove that aspect of golf, or you roll back all balls and make it more difficult for the average hacker. That would be disasterous for the golf industry and would guarantee less people playing the game.

[ApexGrind]

[quote name='Konrad' post='826812' date='Dec 16 2007, 02:49 PM']Does that mean that I would be opposed to a rollback in the Professional Tours? Yes, I am. What has shown that the game is too easy? What is wrong with Tiger hitting a 320-yard drive? Is it just about records and books and stats? Or is it about the game and the future audience? I can't really answer these questions. The age-old question will never be answered - Is Jack or Tiger better, because the truth is that it doesn't really matter. Jack played with different equipment than Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson, albeit it by smaller margins. But does that justtify the entire rollback of an entire sport to suit some ahem, older, gentlemen who think that Tiger is just too good? I don't think so.[/quote]

Let's take Tiger out of the picture because he's, well, a phenomenum. I don't think it's about the game being too easy but about the game being easier. There is that problem of most of the courses being designed with some length (now outdated) in mind. You can't just stretch the course to maintain what the designer had in mind. There are less choices on how to play a hole or course.I think everyone agrees that the new technology makes it "easier" (not too easy). When it gets easier the skill advantage becomes compressed and luck becomes more of a factor. I think Tiger's advantage would become greater if the game were "rolled back".

[Swingtheclub]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='826713' date='Dec 16 2007, 04:26 PM']Took a quick check on the stats:

In 1980, the median driving length on tour was 256.7 yds.
In 2007 - 288.6 yds. A 31.9 yd. difference That's a 3 club difference on the approach shot for most of us.

Before some wiseguy flames me claiming that median is wothless and mean would be more appropriate, I've done this before and the difference in the 2 was less than 0.5 yds. (due to the relatively normal distribution and large sample size)

BTW, Sandy Lyle was T46th in 1986 with a 267 yd. avg.[/quote]



I do not remember what year it was I saw the driving average was about 255 probably about the time they started keeping stats
Also it was sometime around 80 when Gary came along with his first Metal Wood. I remember a bunch of seniors hitting those and using Pinnacles the combination of the hard ball and the metal. They suddenly were hitting it ten fifteen yards farther I am talking about Senior club pros and some others.

Somebody thats good at looking stuff up look this one up Jack Nicklaus entered one PGA driving contest I think in the sixtys they used to have one every year at the PGA He hit it 340 and the record stood for like 20 years

Kids Tiger did not invent the long ball I remember when Jack smoked just about everyone on tour by about twenty.

Konrad sooner or later we have to quit making the ball go longer its that simple or the game will out grow the courses and the real estate. But I am and old guy and am in no way in favor of rolling the current ball back or coming up with a special ball for tour players.

[Konrad]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='826901' date='Dec 16 2007, 06:47 PM']Konrad sooner or later we have to quit making the ball go longer its that simple or the game will out grow the courses and the real estate. But I am and old guy and am in no way in favor of rolling the current ball back or coming up with a special ball for tour players.[/quote]


We've made the ball go as far as possible. The COR has been maxed out on clubs and balls. Anything else you read is pure propaganda. The only way to gain distance nowadays is to be properly fit into your sticks.

[Swingtheclub]

[quote name='Konrad' post='826964' date='Dec 16 2007, 07:40 PM'][quote name='kenk7us2002' post='826901' date='Dec 16 2007, 06:47 PM']Konrad sooner or later we have to quit making the ball go longer its that simple or the game will out grow the courses and the real estate. But I am and old guy and am in no way in favor of rolling the current ball back or coming up with a special ball for tour players.[/quote]


We've made the ball go as far as possible. The COR has been maxed out on clubs and balls. Anything else you read is pure propaganda. The only way to gain distance nowadays is to be properly fit into your sticks.
[/quote]


We will see my young friend Tiger just stated the new Nike ball was longer we will just have to see.

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

2 summers ago a guy that was paired up with my friend and I at Shennecossett used a persimmon driver the whole round. He was hitting it straight and maybe 20-250 everytime. He played surprisingly well with it.

I miss that craaaaaaaack sound it made. I sure wore out my share of persimmon heads BITD.

[bigworm]

I think for the most part he is right on. First of all I Played in the US Junior with Tiger the first time he won the event. I stood just a few feet from him while as a fifteen year old tiger rocketed 3 balls in the long drive contest. Each one a nice high draw traveling 290 yards. It was impressive. So yes for guys that hit the center of the club the ball has been a way bigger change as far as distance.

[neilc]

Sandy Lyle and Ian woosnam are both 50 next year,and will be playing on the Us senior Tour.

look out!

[braincramp]

[quote name='sergizmo' post='826799' date='Dec 16 2007, 04:43 PM'][quote name='braincramp' post='826303' date='Dec 16 2007, 09:38 AM']I use a Louisville F2 persimmon driver and a Louisville 3 wood nyblick,both of which are new. The persimmon is every bit as long as my Cleveland HiBore XL when I put good swings on both.I do probaly lose 10-20 yards on mishits but,if I hit my persimmon off the toe it will draw back into the fairway.If I hit my HiBore off the toe I'm in the next fairway.Also there is not a metal fairway wood made that is as easy to hit off the deck as the nyblick.[/quote]

Neat. What shafts are you playing in the Louisville clubs? Do you have the mid launch or high launch version of the F2? Thanks.
[/quote]

I have a mid-launch F2, and both the F2 and my 3 wood have stock graphite shafts from Louisville.The stock shafts seem to play a little on the soft side.

[Sliderwrxx]

I did an interesting exercise in the summer of 2006; I found a sleeve of brand new Maxfli HT-100 Balata balls left over from my private stash. The had been in a box stored indoors, so they should have been at least decent. First thing I noticed was the color, HT's were never the brightest, but these were definitely pink-ish tan. I took them out to my home course and set out to play 18 holes, using the old drivers, old balls, versus the modern stuff currently in play at the time.

I am in the habit of only keeping the clubs I have played really well with, so these were the gamer drivers from their eras...In the order I used them then.

#1: Cleveland DG43 8* loft, 44", DGX200, D4 swt, GP Crown cord grip
#2: Founders Club, Fresh Metal internal rail 9*, 44" Fenwick World Class 4 flex, tipped 1/2", D4 swt, GP Classic cord grip
#3: Bridgestone Precept Midsize, 9*, 44.25", Mizuno Exsar Gold Tour Stiff X flex, D4/ D5 swt, Royal original cord grip
#4: Ping G2, 7*, 45", Ozik Altus X flex, D5, Lamkin tour black

My control golf ball was the B330.

I tried to keep it fair, so I would only use all of the drivers on the wider open holes, so I wouldn't try to steer it out there. I have probably played 500 rounds at this course, as it was the one I grew up playing, so I have a good idea of where I used to hit it back then with all these clubs.

Heres what I found:

Persimmon with balata: Rising sort of ballooning flight, not much roll for me, very high traj, nice round curves on the ball flight. Distance was about 20 yards shorter on solid shots, about 40 on the misshits, than the G2/ B330. The ball and club seemed to work more into the center when struck on the heel and toe though. But the misses were really short.

Founders with balata: Higher, flatter trajectory, maybe 5 yards longer on solid shots than wood, but much closer to normal distance on mishits. Still not much roll. Especially on the toe, the toed shots didn't start as far right, and hooked less, and only finished about 5 steps behind the solid ones. Maybe this is really why we all switched to metal back then? The heelers were... well heel shots, kinda dead sounding, ugly and short. But about the same as wood.

B'Stone w/ balata: Flatter traj, a little lower, 10 yards on average longer than wood on center shots, a little more roll out than the other 2 combos. The toe shots are where this driver really shined though, it was often longer from the toe than the center, maybe owing to the combo of draw spin/ hot spot, roll out. The heel shots were longer, but still kinda gross looking.

G2 with balata: Spinny, ballooning, short. There couldn't have been a bigger mismatch in club/ ball combos anywhere I don't think.

I noticed the biggest difference when using the new ball with the old clubs off the tee. They fly REALLY low. All 3 of the old drivers could barely get the ball airborne. Or at least flew a ton lower than the same clubs with the balata balls. I am a high ball hitter, so it was really strange to see solid shots fly out there as line drives.

When I hit the iron shots into the greens, that was the other really big difference I saw. The old ball really curves. Shots that are 5 yard cuts with the B330, turned into 15 yard slices that missed the greens with the balata ball. Its no wonder nobody tried to play a straight shot back then, its was almost impossible! *L*

FWIW, I think its the ball. I think the drivers were a reaction to the more modern golf ball. When the solid ball began to gain acceptance, the companies started to tailor the drivers to take advantage of its properties. The first really long combo on the tour was the TM 300 series with the PV1. Or the .2 lofts of the GBB, those were the ones that relly exploded the driving distance average on tour.

My "in a perfect world" solution to bomb and gouge? Don't roll the ball back, just find a way to make it curve again, then solid ball striking will again become a very important part of the professional game.

[dpwrx]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='826974' date='Dec 16 2007, 07:54 PM'][quote name='Konrad' post='826964' date='Dec 16 2007, 07:40 PM'][quote name='kenk7us2002' post='826901' date='Dec 16 2007, 06:47 PM']Konrad sooner or later we have to quit making the ball go longer its that simple or the game will out grow the courses and the real estate. But I am and old guy and am in no way in favor of rolling the current ball back or coming up with a special ball for tour players.[/quote]


We've made the ball go as far as possible. The COR has been maxed out on clubs and balls. Anything else you read is pure propaganda. The only way to gain distance nowadays is to be properly fit into your sticks.
[/quote]


We will see my young friend Tiger just stated the new Nike ball was longer we will just have to see.
[/quote]

When I read the interview with Tiger (golfchannel, golfdigest?), I interpreted his statements as addressing fitting/tuning of the golf ball for him, not absolute distance threshold for ball technology.

Tiger stated on several occasions that, to date, he was playing a ball that did not go as far as he could hit it -- he sacrificed distance to keep the amount of greenside spin on his Nike ball at the level he preferred (it was a compromise that could not be fixed under the old composition of the balls). The new ball addresses this with new materials that allow more distance and same amount of spin.