Straighter ball??

[Stuart_G]

42 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Back spin is what keeps a ball straight.  So lower back spin can lead to more curve on mis hits. 

 

Only in the context of difference in loft causing the different amount of spin for a given face/path relationship.  Loft increases backspin w/o increasing side spin.  And the reduction in offline distance only really happens because the higher loft decreases the total travel distance, not because it changes the amount of curvature.   So you're not going see much practical improvement for small loft changes (e.g. 9* driver vs 11* driver).   Only larger loft changes, like the choice between a driver and a 3wd will help keep someone out of trouble.

 

For a ball change, the side and backspin will be reduced equally (in term of reduction percentage).  So in that case (in theory) would mean lower spin ball would go offline less.  But as already mentioned, with todays balls, the difference from spin differences are not going to be all that significant.   Different aerodynamics (dimple patterns that generate less lift) likely have a bigger potential to effect for offline travel.

 

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Only in the context of difference in loft causing the different amount of spin for a given face/path relationship.  Loft increases backspin w/o increasing side spin.  And the reduction in offline distance only really happens because the higher loft decreases the total travel distance, not because it changes the amount of curvature.   So you're not going see much practical improvement for small loft changes (e.g. 9* driver vs 11* driver).   Only larger loft changes, like the choice between a driver and a 3wd will help keep someone out of trouble.

 

For a ball change, the side and backspin will be reduced equally (in term of reduction percentage).  So in that case (in theory) would mean lower spin ball would go offline less.  But as already mentioned, with todays balls, the difference from spin differences are not going to be all that significant.   Different aerodynamics (dimple patterns that generate less lift) likely have a bigger potential to effect for offline travel.

 

Makes sense.  It's weird.  I can spray my 3 metal just as bad as driver.  I remember Vijay once saying the same.  This is why he would choose to hit driver more often than 3 metal.  Maybe it has to applies to longer hitters? 

Edited June 6, 2021 by phizzy30

[rwbloom93]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Only in the context of difference in loft causing the different amount of spin for a given face/path relationship.  Loft increases backspin w/o increasing side spin.  And the reduction in offline distance only really happens because the higher loft decreases the total travel distance, not because it changes the amount of curvature.   So you're not going see much practical improvement for small loft changes (e.g. 9* driver vs 11* driver).   Only larger loft changes, like the choice between a driver and a 3wd will help keep someone out of trouble.

 

For a ball change, the side and backspin will be reduced equally (in term of reduction percentage).  So in that case (in theory) would mean lower spin ball would go offline less.  But as already mentioned, with todays balls, the difference from spin differences are not going to be all that significant.   Different aerodynamics (dimple patterns that generate less lift) likely have a bigger potential to effect for offline travel.

 

Thanks for the post.

 

Another question is what role does friction play in creating tilt axis.  It seems logical to me that a soft urethane cover with firm mantle will create more tilt as a club face "wipes" across the ball compared to a ionomer cover with no mantle (just a soft core).  We know it creates more backspin so it should also create more "side spin" or tilt.

 

Regards

Edited June 6, 2021 by rwbloom93

[Stuart_G]

23 minutes ago, rwbloom93 said:

Another question is what role does friction play in creating tilt axis. 

 

Not much.  Whatever effect it has on backspin is going to be the same with side spin.  

 

Backspin and side spine are arbitrary components used for our convenience.  Niether the ball nor face care about the difference between a horizontal or vertical orientation.  It's all the same in terms of the interaction between the ball and face for the longer clubs and probably most clubs in the set.

 

One might argue that the orientation of the grooves might have some effect that's not equal with higher lofted impact but I haven't' seen any actual data to confirm or debunk that.

 

 

29 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Makes sense.  It's weird.  I can spray my 3 metal just as bad as driver.  I remember Vijay once saying the same.  This is why he would choose to hit driver more often than 3 metal.  Maybe it has to applies to longer hitters? 

 

It assumes good, consistent center faced impact for both clubs and the same face-path.  Doesn't really depend on the length.  Most longer hitters are still longer with the driver than the fairways.     However, when neither of those assumptions are true, anything can happen.   It's common for most players to be a bit more consistent with the shorter 3wd but there is no guarantee that will always be the case.  Some people are just more comfortable with the driver and swing it better because of that.  Or maybe they have spent more time and effort to get a better fitting club in the driver than they did with the fairway.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Stuart_G

[rwbloom93]

26 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Makes sense.  It's weird.  I can spray my 3 metal just as bad as driver.  I remember Vijay once saying the same.  This is why he would choose to hit driver more often than 3 metal.  Maybe it has to applies to longer hitters? 

 

Can't comment on Vijay (or you) but I've heard pros say it's easier to shape a fairway wood than a driver but I assume they were referring to a controlled shape the extra loft gives them due to added backspin.

[phizzy30]

39 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

It assumes good, consistent center faced impact for both clubs and the same face-path.  Doesn't really depend on the length.  Most longer hitters are still longer with the driver than the fairways.     However, when neither of those assumptions are true, anything can happen.   It's common for most players to be a bit more consistent with the shorter 3wd but there is no guarantee that will always be the case.  Some people are just more comfortable with the driver and swing it better because of that.  Or maybe they have spent more time and effort to get a better fitting club in the driver than they did with the fairway.

Might just be a confidence issue for me.  Only time I use 3 metal off the tee is if it's a par 4 that's 300 or shorter or if there the fairway runs out or if there's trouble past 320.  There's no guarantee I won't hit a snap hook though, lol. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by phizzy30

[arbeck]

On 6/5/2021 at 9:03 PM, rwbloom93 said:

I don't think it is possible for the axis to be the same for every ball (provided the same delivery) because of the friction force between face and ball will vary with ball construction.

 

Regards

The friction force causes spin, but doesn't change the spin access. Two balls will have very different spin rates, but the axis on which they spin will be identical.

[rwbloom93]

21 hours ago, arbeck said:

The friction force causes spin, but doesn't change the spin access. Two balls will have very different spin rates, but the axis on which they spin will be identical.

I think this is wrong.

 

When a player "wipes" across the ball the only way to create tilt (assuming the ball impacts perfectly on the CG) is the friction between the clubface and ball. Absent friction, the ball won't tilt or spin regardless of the loft or angle difference between path and clubface. 

 

When friction is present, backspin and tilt are created but vary based on the factors previously discussed.  No two balls will create the exact same coefficient of friction so backspin and tilt will vary ball to ball.

 

Regards    

[Stuart_G]

27 minutes ago, rwbloom93 said:

I think this is wrong.

 

When a player "wipes" across the ball the only way to create tilt (assuming the ball impacts perfectly on the CG) is the friction between the clubface and ball. Absent friction, the ball won't tilt or spin regardless of the loft or angle difference between path and clubface. 

 

When friction is present, backspin and tilt are created but vary based on the factors previously discussed.  No two balls will create the exact same coefficient of friction so backspin and tilt will vary ball to ball.

 

Regards    

 

But the spin axis is going to be determined by the d-plane and relative direction of the face motion across/through the ball.  The friction doesn't play a part in that axis, only the amount of spin that happens on that particular axis.

[rwbloom93]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

But the spin axis is going to be determined by the d-plane and relative direction of the face motion across/through the ball.  The friction doesn't play a part in that axis, only the amount of spin that happens on that particular axis.

Thanks.

 

I will continue to give this some thought. 

 

Regards

[rwbloom93]

On 6/8/2021 at 2:57 PM, Stuart_G said:

 

But the spin axis is going to be determined by the d-plane and relative direction of the face motion across/through the ball.  The friction doesn't play a part in that axis, only the amount of spin that happens on that particular axis.

 

Not trying to hijack this thread, just trying to understand.

 

It is being suggested that a D-plane, tilted 15 degrees (for example), will produce the same tilt on a golf ball sized sphere of any construction? For example, a Tour ball (standard friction) vs. an Ice ball (minimal friction) will only have differing backspins but not a differing tilt?  That seems highly illogical since D-plane is rendered meaningless absent friction.

 

Regards

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, rwbloom93 said:

 

Not trying to hijack this thread, just trying to understand.

 

It is being suggested that a D-plane, tilted 15 degrees (for example), will produce the same tilt on a golf ball sized sphere of any construction? For example, a Tour ball (standard friction) vs. an Ice ball (minimal friction) will only have differing back total spin but not a differing tilt? 

 

Well, it's more than just d-plane due to the relative face-to-path numbers but basically yes - with the one minor correction.    The geometry of the collision determines the spin axis and lots of things about the collision determine the total spin.   But in the context of two different balls with the exact same collision geometry, the only thing different in what contributes to the total spin is the friction.

 

The only way the spin axis might be effected is if the friction coefficient is not uniform in all directions on the surface of the face.  Which is why I mentioned earlier that the grooves might play a part for higher lofted impacts.  But with low lofted impact and especially the driver, the difference should be negligible.

 

 

10 hours ago, rwbloom93 said:

That seems highly illogical since D-plane is rendered meaningless absent friction.

 

Sorry, not following you here.   To me, the concept of no friction at impact is very illogical so I have not sure what logic you're using.

[rwbloom93]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Well, it's more than just d-plane due to the relative face-to-path numbers but basically yes - with the one minor correction.    The geometry of the collision determines the spin axis and lots of things about the collision determine the total spin.   But in the context of two different balls with the exact same collision geometry, the only thing different in what contributes to the total spin is the friction.

 

The only way the spin axis might be effected is if the friction coefficient is not uniform in all directions on the surface of the face.  Which is why I mentioned earlier that the grooves might play a part for higher lofted impacts.  But with low lofted impact and especially the driver, the difference should be negligible.

 

 

 

Sorry, not following you here.   To me, the concept of no friction at impact is very illogical so I have not sure what logic you're using.

Thanks for the replies...

 

D-Plane tilt (geometry of the collision) will only knock a ball off pure vertical (to create curve) in the presence of friction. Friction serves a dual role of creating the spin and axis.  I brought up the no friction element to illustrate without friction there is no spin or tilt axis (regardless of geometry)...therefore friction has to play a major role in both.  (Also, without friction, there is no gear effect)

 

So my point from the beginning is a firm urethane ball will create a higher spin and increased tilt (due to friction) as compared a soft ionomer covered ball because the friction coefficients are different.

 

Again, I appreciate your replies...we just disagree.

 

Regards   

Edited June 10, 2021 by rwbloom93

[Stuart_G]

25 minutes ago, rwbloom93 said:

Thanks for the replies...

 

D-Plane tilt (geometry of the collision) will only knock a ball off pure vertical (to create curve) in the presence of friction. Friction serves a dual role of creating the spin and axis.  I brought up the no friction element to illustrate without friction there is no spin or tilt axis (regardless of geometry)...therefore friction has to play a major role in both.  (Also, without friction, there is no gear effect)

 

Ahh,  but there is no tilt axis because there is no spin.  That does not mean that the amount of friction contributes to what the spin axis might or will be when it does exist. Only that the presence of friction is required for there to be any spin.   In a purely theoretical exercise, you actually can compute a spin axis for a frictionless impact since the amount of friction is not included in that part of the equations.  It would just be meaningless to do so.

 

 

But yes, my previous comments were in the context of center face impact and no gear effect.   The amount of friction can certainly influence the amount of gear effect imparted on the ball and that could alter the spin axis, at least in theory.   But in reality, I doubt it would be enough to be noticeable.

[kuch]

Friction definitely is a factor.....try the ol' vaseline on the face of your driver and see how long and straight the ball flies.  It's amazing how effective it is.

[ktyler2]

@Stuart_G Under the same exact impact conditions if a higher spinning ball has both higher backspin and higher sidespin does it follow that the same higher spinning ball will also travel farther offline? And the real question here that most people will want to understand is if a golfer wants to hit the straightest shots possible (without concern for potential impacts to other variables like distance, trajectory, etc.) then would the lowest spinning golf balls on the market be the way to achieve the straightest shots? Or do we need to consider other factors like dimple patterns and lift? 

 

Thanks in advance!

[Stuart_G]

51 minutes ago, ktyler2 said:

@Stuart_G Under the same exact impact conditions if a higher spinning ball has both higher backspin and higher sidespin does it follow that the same higher spinning ball will also travel farther offline?

 

First of all, for the same impact condition, backspin and side spin may not necessarily increase in a similar manner thanks to gear effect.

 

But if it did, the change in the amount offline from the side spin change would typically be similar to the change in total distance from the back spin change. Sometime more spin will mean less total distance and therefore less distance offline.  Sometimes it will be the opposite.  Although it's really a lot more complicated than that so there is no simple answer universal to all cases.

 

 

51 minutes ago, ktyler2 said:

And the real question here that most people will want to understand is if a golfer wants to hit the straightest shots possible (without concern for potential impacts to other variables like distance, trajectory, etc.) then would the lowest spinning golf balls on the market be the way to achieve the straightest shots?

 

Relative to just the option of using other higher spinning balls and keeping everything else the same - probably.    But that's not necessarily going to give a significant improvement.

 

Relative to other equipment changes that might improve delivery to reduce side spin (such as equipment choices to improved face control or improved face impact location) - then the answer is a big no.    The effect of different balls on driver spin is just too small compared to the other potential effects on spin from other equipment choices.

 

 

51 minutes ago, ktyler2 said:

Or do we need to consider other factors like dimple patterns and lift? 

 

Dimple pattern certainly can have some effect but it's not something that you can consider directly.  

 

But again, most offline tendencies don't come from the ball so changing balls is not typically going to be very effective at mitigating whatever the true root problem might be.

 

But you never know for sure until you try.  Just don't over think it - there are no simple answers.  You just have to test different balls to see what might make a difference for your game and your launch conditions.  No other "research" is going to give you the answers you need.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Stuart_G

[ktyler2]

17 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

But you never know for sure until you try.  Just don't over think it - there are no simple answers.  You just have to test different balls to see what might make a difference for your game and your launch conditions.  No other "research" is going to give you the answers you need.

Thanks for the prompt and thorough reply! Do you have any recommendations or best practices for testing and choosing a ball to play? IE which areas to focus on, how to do the tests, and what to look for?

[gs1184]

What was the classic top flite ball that was supposed to go straight? Was it the Aero?