Someone is about to do something against the rules. What do you do?

[Pfish]

If I see someone about to do something during a match like hit a wrong ball, tee up outside markers, I will tell them before the infection is made. I believe most people I know do likewise.  Today someone purposely waited until after the stroke was made to point out an infraction so they could win the hole.  It seemed extremely poor sportsmanship.  What do you think?

[Sawgrass]

Agreed as to the sportsmanship issue.  But what was the infraction today?    
 

You might have had recourse. 

[jordan2240]

I'd say it would depend on whether or not the 'guilty' party habitually committed the same foul, or whether or not he knew he was doing it.  I would also consider how much the infraction put him at an advantage.  In our league yesterday, one of the guys we were playing against made an illegal drop (he dropped from shoulder height).  Since no one cared and it certainly wasn't to his advantage, we just let him play on.  Someone who really wanted to win the hole could have let him hit then called a penalty, which would have been pretty lowbrow in my book.

[nsxguy]

54 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

I'd say it would depend on whether or not the 'guilty' party habitually committed the same foul, or whether or not he knew he was doing it.  I would also consider how much the infraction put him at an advantage.  In our league yesterday, one of the guys we were playing against made an illegal drop (he dropped from shoulder height).  Since no one cared and it certainly wasn't to his advantage, we just let him play on.  Someone who really wanted to win the hole could have let him hit then called a penalty, which would have been pretty lowbrow in my book.

 

So then it doesn't "depend". You agree.

 

The OP suggested it was poor sportsmanship NOT to tell someone they were about to commit an infraction.

 

Not telling anyone they're about to commit an infraction or not telling them they dropped the ball incorrectly, so they could correct it, IS poor sportsmanship/lowbrow.

 

I agree. 👍

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, Pfish said:

Today someone purposely waited until after the stroke was made to point out an infraction so they could win the hole.  It seemed extremely poor sportsmanship.  What do you think?

 

Definitely poor sportsmanship.

[jordan2240]

48 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

The OP suggested it was poor sportsmanship NOT to tell someone they were about to commit an infraction.

The poor sportsmanship was in NOT telling him and then calling a penalty.  If you think it's poor sportsmanship to NOT tell someone they broke a rule and then just allow them to play on as if they hadn't, we have a far different view of sportsmanship.  Perhaps it would have been beneficial though for me to have told him in case he encountered someone like the OP identified.

[rogolf]

If you see someone about to breach a Rule, or doing something that is not in accordance with the Rules, it is good sportsmanship to tell them immediately so that they do not incur a penalty.  Anything else is poor sportsmanship.  In stroke play, every player has a responsibility to protect the rest of the field by identifying any breach of the Rules that they see.  Not doing so is irresponsible and poor sportsmanship.

Edited May 7, 2021 by rogolf

[Pfish]

It was match play.  The person marked their ball and was in the way so was asked to move the marker. When remarking their ball went the wrong direction.  Putted out and was told of the error. The person admitted they knew the ball was marked incorrectly before the putt was made.  

[Pfish]

I mean the person putting didn’t know they marked incorrectly, the one in the know just kept quiet on purpose to win the hole.  Totally unsportsmanlike.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Pfish said:

I mean the person putting didn’t know they marked incorrectly, the one in the know just kept quiet on purpose to win the hole.  Totally unsportsmanlike.

Truly not in the spirit of the game; in fact, disgusting.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

The poor sportsmanship was in NOT telling him and then calling a penalty.  If you think it's poor sportsmanship to NOT tell someone they broke a rule and then just allow them to play on as if they hadn't, we have a far different view of sportsmanship.  Perhaps it would have been beneficial though for me to have told him in case he encountered someone like the OP identified.

 

I guess in your example it was poor sportsmanship. You were trying to be nice, but by ignoring it you opened him up to signing for a wrong score and getting DQ'd

 

A few things about your example:

 

1. You can re-drop if you drop wrong without penalty (as many times as you need to get it right) - so it is great to tell them right away so they can fix it. No harm no foul.

2. If you do let him play a wrongly dropped ball in the relief area he incurs a one stroke penalty. But he is better to know that and mark his score properly rather be DQ'd for signing for lower score than he made

3. If you choose to ignore his infraction you are then harming the field. In this case I agree the harm was likely minimal if any, but we don't get to decide what rules matter and what don't. 

 

So I would say it is poor sportsmanship to not let someone know they dropped wrong BEFORE they hit the ball, so they can correct it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pfish said:

I mean the person putting didn’t know they marked incorrectly, the one in the know just kept quiet on purpose to win the hole.  Totally unsportsmanlike.

Yes totally offside. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I guess in your example it was poor sportsmanship. You were trying to be nice, but by ignoring it you opened him up to signing for a wrong score and getting DQ'd

 

OP suggested it was Match Play, no DQ for that.

 

@OP: As it was (wasn't it?) Match Play you may always disregard a breach your opponent makes if you believe there is no advantage to them. Certainly you may prevent them from committing the breach and that IMO is the best way as that might teach them not to make such breaches in later course eg in Stroke Play. In Stroke Play you may not disregard a breach but you must prevent it or call it in, no other choice.

 

And yes, it is extremely poor sportsmanship not to prevent a breach and then call it in, if that breach was to be prevented. In another thread @antip suggested a player might be DQ'd for doing that.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Mr. Bean
Spelling

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Pfish said:

If I see someone about to do something during a match like hit a wrong ball, tee up outside markers, I will tell them before the infection is made. I believe most people I know do likewise.  Today someone purposely waited until after the stroke was made to point out an infraction so they could win the hole.  It seemed extremely poor sportsmanship.  What do you think?

 

I am a bit puzzled having read all of your posts.

 

Were you present or was this told to you? If you were present why didn't you prevent the breach?

[Pfish]

I was present but neither the person putting or the person who declined to point out the breach beforehand in order to make the putter loose the hole. It was a short straight putt no advantage to marking in the wrong place.  It was match play so no protecting the field issue.  I wasn’t paying attention to the replacement of the marker and probably wouldn’t have remembered what direction it should have been.  I was walking off the green when the “you remarked your ball in the wrong direction, hole lost” was made, and the reply “did you know this before I putted?” answer “yes”.  This of course is an abridged report of what was said on the green and later.

[jordan2240]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I guess in your example it was poor sportsmanship. You were trying to be nice, but by ignoring it you opened him up to signing for a wrong score and getting DQ'd

 

A few things about your example:

 

1. You can re-drop if you drop wrong without penalty (as many times as you need to get it right) - so it is great to tell them right away so they can fix it. No harm no foul.

2. If you do let him play a wrongly dropped ball in the relief area he incurs a one stroke penalty. But he is better to know that and mark his score properly rather be DQ'd for signing for lower score than he made

3. If you choose to ignore his infraction you are then harming the field. In this case I agree the harm was likely minimal if any, but we don't get to decide what rules matter and what don't. 

 

So I would say it is poor sportsmanship to not let someone know they dropped wrong BEFORE they hit the ball, so they can correct it.

 

 

Yes totally offside. 

This was also match play (my partner was playing this guy, not me) in a league that allows you to 'fluff' your lies, so it wasn't the sort of competition where people worry much about those kinds of violations (though I'm sure there are some that do).  He actually was making two violations, as he was dropping due to hitting the ball out-of-bounds at the spot where he thought the ball went out-of-bounds rather than re-teeing.  The way he was hacking it up during the course of the evening, incurring extra penalty strokes wasn't going to make much difference.  But yes, I can see where during stroke play, you wouldn't want to allow such violations to occur.

[jordan2240]

11 minutes ago, Pfish said:

I was present but neither the person putting or the person who declined to point out the breach beforehand in order to make the putter loose the hole. It was a short straight putt no advantage to marking in the wrong place.  It was match play so no protecting the field issue.  I wasn’t paying attention to the replacement of the marker and probably wouldn’t have remembered what direction it should have been.  I was walking off the green when the “you remarked your ball in the wrong direction, hole lost” was made, and the reply “did you know this before I putted?” answer “yes”.  This of course is an abridged report of what was said on the green and later.

Glad I'm not the only one who has forgotten how they marked their ball.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

This was also match play (my partner was playing this guy, not me) in a league that allows you to 'fluff' your lies, so it wasn't the sort of competition where people worry much about those kinds of violations (though I'm sure there are some that do).  He actually was making two violations, as he was dropping due to hitting the ball out-of-bounds at the spot where he thought the ball went out-of-bounds rather than re-teeing.  The way he was hacking it up during the course of the evening, incurring extra penalty strokes wasn't going to make much difference.  But yes, I can see where during stroke play, you wouldn't want to allow such violations to occur.

Sorry missed the match play part.

[trilerian]

@Pfish Poor, poor sportsmanship.  I hate playing with those golfers. 

I was playing in my city metro a couple of years ago and hit my tee shot from the wrong side of the tee marker.  After I hit the guy playing with me says you hit from the wrong spot.  I looked down and sure enough, a foot outside my marker.  He then says that's alright, no biggie.  I replied you don't get to make that decision, would have been nice of you to tell me before hand.  Then I re teed and took my strokes.  We all miss things from time to time, but the people who stand by and purposefully watch us do it, well...   

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

If you think it's poor sportsmanship to NOT tell someone they broke a rule and then just allow them to play on as if they hadn't, we have a far different view of sportsmanship

 

This is one of those times we have to be very careful what we say and how we say it.

 

Your sentence can be taken 2 different ways.

 

"and then just allow them to play on as if they hadn't".

 

That could mean

 

a) Not count the penalty at all because it's a friendly game and a minor infraction.

 

or

 

b) Allow them to play on and recording a lower score so that they can be DQ'd at the end when he's turned in.

 

One might think, this being the RULES FORUM that "a" wouldn't apply. However, the discussion has discussed a friendly/social aspect to the issue so it's possible you mean "a".

 

So IF you mean "a", no, I don't think that's poor sportsmanship.

 

IF you mean "b" then yes, I think that's poor sportsmanship.

 

Hope that's clear. ✌️

[jordan2240]

36 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So IF you mean "a", no, I don't think that's poor sportsmanship.

This was definitely an 'a', but unfortunately, there are probably folks who would let it go then call it after the scorecard is signed, which would be incredibly bad sportsmanship in my view.  But wouldn't that only apply in stroke play?  I'm assuming in match play, if you let something go, you can't call it afterward - but I don't know that for sure.

[nsxguy]

26 minutes ago, trilerian said:

@Pfish Poor, poor sportsmanship.  I hate playing with those golfers. 

I was playing in my city metro a couple of years ago and hit my tee shot from the wrong side of the tee marker.  After I hit the guy playing with me says you hit from the wrong spot.  I looked down and sure enough, a foot outside my marker.  He then says that's alright, no biggie.  I replied you don't get to make that decision, would have been nice of you to tell me before hand.  Then I re teed and took my strokes.  We all miss things from time to time, but the people who stand by and purposefully watch us do it, well...   

 

Yup, we sure do.

 

At the World Am some 25 years ago I led my flight going into the last round. I was chopping it up for 15 holes before this incident so it really didn't affect the outcome but a similar thing happened to me.

 

Prequel - Nerves were a bit frayed as this was the final round. And on the 9th hole, a par 5, one of the guys hit a wedge over a pond to the green. Ball hits outside the hazard and rolls back into the water.

 

1 guy in the group said the other guy could take a drop on the green side of the pond. I corrected him and noted it was a yellow hazard and he'd have to go over it again. The player who hit the shot agreed with the the guy who said he could hit from the green side. The guy who gave him the wrong advice started getting hot.

 

I calmly told the player to play 2 balls but first tell us which one he wanted to count if it was allowed. And that since we were at the clubhouse we could run in and ask the pro. The player chose the ball on the green side (of course) and played over the pond with a 2nd ball. He made 9 with the correct/2nd ball and 6 with the first one.

 

The pro wasn't in the pro shop when we went in but came out onto the 10th fairway to discuss and then delivered the bad news.

 

Player was, of course, upset but so was the guy who was wrong about how to proceed.

 

So tempers were running hot; at least with those 2.

 

Anyway, after dunking my 2nd shot into the par 4 16th, I hit again and it clear the pond but rolled back inside the hazard line but was still on grass so I could easily chip the ball.

 

I take a practice chip and brush the grass. 2 of the other 3 are right there watching. 2 or 3 seconds later I do it again. And once more before hitting the chip.

 

"You touched the hazard 3 times before hitting. That's 6 strokes."

 

I looked down again and sure enough I was clearly inside the yellow painted line. 🤦‍♀️

 

Now, I believe under the current rules that would've been only 2 strokes for the mistake, yes ? And I didn't know what the rule was then but since there was zero chance of me placing high in the flight I didn't ask and didn't care.

 

They certainly could have noted that I was in the hazard before the 1st practice stroke and they certainly could have told me I committed a penalty right away, but noooooooo,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Guess they got their "revenge" for me giving them the correct way to proceed on 9.

 

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

This was definitely an 'a', but unfortunately, there are probably folks who would let it go then call it after the scorecard is signed, which would be incredibly bad sportsmanship in my view.  But wouldn't that only apply in stroke play?  I'm assuming in match play, if you let something go, you can't call it afterward - but I don't know that for sure.

 

One of the boyz will be by shortly but I believe in match play, once the 1st ball is struck off the next tee, the previous hole stands as decided regardless of any rules issues.

 

I forget exactly when that applies if it's the LAST hole of the match.

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

One of the boyz will be by shortly but I believe in match play, once the 1st ball is struck off the next tee, the previous hole stands as decided regardless of any rules issues.

 

Not quite, see Rule 20.1b(2) that says in part:

 

If the player requests a ruling about an earlier hole, a ruling will be given only if all three of these apply:

• The opponent breached Rule 3.2d(1) (giving wrong number of strokes taken) or Rule 3.2d(2) (failing to tell the player about a penalty),

• The request is based on facts the player was not aware of before either player made a stroke to begin the hole being played or, if between holes, the hole just completed, and

• After becoming aware of these facts, the player makes a request for a ruling in time (as set out above).

[Sawgrass]

22 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yup, we sure do.

 

At the World Am some 25 years ago I led my flight going into the last round. I was chopping it up for 15 holes before this incident so it really didn't affect the outcome but a similar thing happened to me.

 

Prequel - Nerves were a bit frayed as this was the final round. And on the 9th hole, a par 5, one of the guys hit a wedge over a pond to the green. Ball hits outside the hazard and rolls back into the water.

 

1 guy in the group said the other guy could take a drop on the green side of the pond. I corrected him and noted it was a yellow hazard and he'd have to go over it again. The player who hit the shot agreed with the the guy who said he could hit from the green side. The guy who gave him the wrong advice started getting hot.

 

I calmly told the player to play 2 balls but first tell us which one he wanted to count if it was allowed. And that since we were at the clubhouse we could run in and ask the pro. The player chose the ball on the green side (of course) and played over the pond with a 2nd ball. He made 9 with the correct/2nd ball and 6 with the first one.

 

The pro wasn't in the pro shop when we went in but came out onto the 10th fairway to discuss and then delivered the bad news.

 

Player was, of course, upset but so was the guy who was wrong about how to proceed.

 

So tempers were running hot; at least with those 2.

 

Anyway, after dunking my 2nd shot into the par 4 16th, I hit again and it clear the pond but rolled back inside the hazard line but was still on grass so I could easily chip the ball.

 

I take a practice chip and brush the grass. 2 of the other 3 are right there watching. 2 or 3 seconds later I do it again. And once more before hitting the chip.

 

"You touched the hazard 3 times before hitting. That's 6 strokes."

 

I looked down again and sure enough I was clearly inside the yellow painted line. 🤦‍♀️

 

Now, I believe under the current rules that would've been only 2 strokes for the mistake, yes ? And I didn't know what the rule was then but since there was zero chance of me placing high in the flight I didn't ask and didn't care.

 

They certainly could have noted that I was in the hazard before the 1st practice stroke and they certainly could have told me I committed a penalty right away, but noooooooo,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Guess they got their "revenge" for me giving them the correct way to proceed on 9.

 

 

 

 

Regarding the several pre-2019-illegal practice strokes in the hazard, you’d only get a single 2sp unless you were told about it during the series or made an intervening stroke. Today this is described in 1.3c(4).

[Mr. Bean]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yup, we sure do.

 

At the World Am some 25 years ago I led my flight going into the last round. I was chopping it up for 15 holes before this incident so it really didn't affect the outcome but a similar thing happened to me.

 

Prequel - Nerves were a bit frayed as this was the final round. And on the 9th hole, a par 5, one of the guys hit a wedge over a pond to the green. Ball hits outside the hazard and rolls back into the water.

 

1 guy in the group said the other guy could take a drop on the green side of the pond. I corrected him and noted it was a yellow hazard and he'd have to go over it again. The player who hit the shot agreed with the the guy who said he could hit from the green side. The guy who gave him the wrong advice started getting hot.

 

I calmly told the player to play 2 balls but first tell us which one he wanted to count if it was allowed. And that since we were at the clubhouse we could run in and ask the pro. The player chose the ball on the green side (of course) and played over the pond with a 2nd ball. He made 9 with the correct/2nd ball and 6 with the first one.

 

The pro wasn't in the pro shop when we went in but came out onto the 10th fairway to discuss and then delivered the bad news.

 

Player was, of course, upset but so was the guy who was wrong about how to proceed.

 

So tempers were running hot; at least with those 2.

 

Anyway, after dunking my 2nd shot into the par 4 16th, I hit again and it clear the pond but rolled back inside the hazard line but was still on grass so I could easily chip the ball.

 

I take a practice chip and brush the grass. 2 of the other 3 are right there watching. 2 or 3 seconds later I do it again. And once more before hitting the chip.

 

"You touched the hazard 3 times before hitting. That's 6 strokes."

 

I looked down again and sure enough I was clearly inside the yellow painted line. 🤦‍♀️

 

Now, I believe under the current rules that would've been only 2 strokes for the mistake, yes ? And I didn't know what the rule was then but since there was zero chance of me placing high in the flight I didn't ask and didn't care.

 

They certainly could have noted that I was in the hazard before the 1st practice stroke and they certainly could have told me I committed a penalty right away, but noooooooo,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Guess they got their "revenge" for me giving them the correct way to proceed on 9.

 

 

 

 

 

Sawgrass already told you how it goes, I will only tell you that NEVER trust your buddies when it comes to Rules of Golf but CHECK the Rule yourself.

 

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Regarding the several pre-2019-illegal practice strokes in the hazard, you’d only get a single 2sp unless you were told about it during the series or made an intervening stroke. Today this is described in 1.3c(4).

nsxguy said that he "brushed the grass" in the water hazard, which would not result in a penalty.  Touching the ground was a penalty.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

nsxguy said that he "brushed the grass" in the water hazard, which would not result in a penalty.  Touching the ground was a penalty.

 

Unless it could be construed as testing the condition of the hazard.

 

I am soooooo glad that is now history. 👏

[Sawgrass]

5 minutes ago, rogolf said:

nsxguy said that he "brushed the grass" in the water hazard, which would not result in a penalty.  Touching the ground was a penalty.

Perhaps you are right about the facts. I read “practice chip” as touching the ground, but I could be wrong. 

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

This was definitely an 'a', but unfortunately, there are probably folks who would let it go then call it after the scorecard is signed, which would be incredibly bad sportsmanship in my view.  But wouldn't that only apply in stroke play?  I'm assuming in match play, if you let something go, you can't call it afterward - but I don't know that for sure.

Keep in mind the entire field is in play for stroke events. I have been through more than a few situations where players in a group said not following a rule was "okay", but somehow others found out and it resulted in a DQ. 

 

A good example in a stroke play event a player picked up a 4" putt - simply not thinking. His group let it go and said it was 'okay' as he clearly would have made it anyway. The guy actually went on to win the event. When it was announced the group behind him raised a concern that they saw him not finish a hole and assumed he must of pulled out of the stroke competition and was only playing for skins. 

 

When we looked into it the player and everyone in his group admitted he didn't hole out. We had no choice but to DQ him. He would have still won if he took his penalty and holed out. 

 

Just as often these incidents don't come out until after the event is over and then everyone looks bad that was involved. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

32 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Just as often these incidents don't come out until after the event is over and then everyone looks bad that was involved. 

 

 

Some years back I was playing in a friendly competition between three clubs, 12 players each club, stroke play Stableford. On a par5 I had driven my ball onto the fairway and was approaching it. There was a small gaggle of geese around my ball and I rolled my 3-wheel card heavily towards them. Unfortunately the cart happened to move my ball. I replaced the ball and played on, scored par + 1 penalty stroke.

 

Now, when I told to my marker (a member of one of the other clubs) that I made 6 there was this conversation:

- No, you made a par!

- Yes, but I got one penalty stroke for moving my ball in the fairway.

- We didn't see it (he sure did see it)

- Well, I did.

 

Afterwards I could not help thinking how many 'we did not see it' breaches had been overlooked by this guy and likes of him. Even in a friendly competition the best of the day should win and not the one who had most breaches overlooked.