How many penalty strokes?

[jc4birdie]

Guy hits his tee ball into unplayable area (not hazard), can't "find" it.  Drops 120 yards further up the hole, and then I find his original ball, b/c I knew where he was "looking" was a fantasy.  He takes a 1 stroke penalty. What is the correct penalty?

[antip]

Much key information is missing to answer your question. Did the guy start search for the original ball? If so, how long did he search before dropping a ball and how long from search commencement did you find the original? Was MLR E-5 in place (the local rule offering a drop in the fairway for a 2 stroke penalty for a ball lost or OOB)? Was the dropped ball played or are you asking what is the ruling prior to that ball being played?

[Halebopp]

The player may correct the mistake without a penalty as he hadn't made a stroke at the substituted ball yet. Rule 14.5.

 

Did you find the ball within the three-minute search time? If you did, the player is required to continue play with the original ball without any penalties. In case you didn't, the ball was lost and the player was required to use Stroke & Distance relief and return to the tee to play his 3rd stroke.

 

If the local rule for alternative relief for a lost ball, or a ball out of bounds was in use, the player would've needed to correct the error and use the original ball's location as the reference point and take relief accordingly, hitting his 4th stroke, or return to the tee to play his 3rd.

 

 

[cristphoto]

So if his ball was lost (?) by rule you go back to the tee and re-hit adding a penalty stroke (hitting 3 off the tee).  In our men's league with a higher % of walkers we don't do that. We drop from a consensus of where the ball went in and add 2 strokes to keep pace of play moving along.  Plus to add further complication if the player (after hitting first ball wild) goes ahead and hits a second ball off the tee without declaring its a provisional then that new ball is in play with a one stroke penalty.  Often in "social" golf this is waived but not in tournaments.  

[jc4birdie]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Much key information is missing to answer your question. Did the guy start search for the original ball? If so, how long did he search before dropping a ball and how long from search commencement did you find the original? Was MLR E-5 in place (the local rule offering a drop in the fairway for a 2 stroke penalty for a ball lost or OOB)? Was the dropped ball played or are you asking what is the ruling prior to that ball being played?

He searched for, most likely, the 3 min timeframe, but I know that he knew he wasn't searching anywhere near the correct area....he was setting up a pretext of "where" he'd drop.  

 

I'm asking what the ruling is on the incorrectly dropped ball that was played, knowing he was a 9i ahead of where his ball went into the unplayable area.  What should've happened is clear....he could have found his ball had he not been trying to BS the group by "looking" way up the hole....he'd have dropped in the fairway adjacent to where his ball was laying unplayable, hitting his 4th.

 

It was social golf, so no sense in pushing the issue.  It's just that I don't know what the penalty should've been on the dropped ball, given the obvious infraction of taking that 9i of extra distance from the general area where the errant ball clearly landed, and that I found his ball after he'd dropped and proceeded.

Edited September 24, 2021 by jc4birdie

[jc4birdie]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

The player may correct the mistake without a penalty as he hadn't made a stroke at the substituted ball yet. Rule 14.5.

 

 

 

 

Don't think this could work, given he'd already taken a clearly incorrect drop and played it 120 yards ahead of where I found his ball.  Or are you saying that after dropping and hitting, and then subsequently I found his original, that he can go back and apply the rules correctly to the original ball without extra penalty?

[rogolf]

From your further description, the player has played from a wrong place, with a serious breach (significant distance gained from correct place).  He incurs a two stroke penalty and must correct the mistake of playing from a wrong place by returning to the correct place and proceeding correctly.  The stroke made from the wrong place does not count.

If he fails to return and correct the wrong place error before teeing of the next hole, the player is dq'd (he has no valid score for the hole).

In match play, the player loses the hole as soon as he made the stroke from a wrong place.

[Halebopp]

9 minutes ago, jc4birdie said:

Don't think this could work, given he'd already taken a clearly incorrect drop and played it 120 yards ahead of where I found his ball.  Or are you saying that after dropping and hitting, and then subsequently I found his original, that he can go back and apply the rules correctly to the original ball without extra penalty?

 

You said the player dropped the ball and then you found the original ball. You didn't say anything about the player making a stroke at the substituted ball. If he did make a stroke at the ball, it's a completely different situation.

 

In that case there's a two-stroke (general) penalty for playing from a wrong place and, as it's a serious breach, the player needs to return to the tee to play his 5th stroke. If the alternative relief option for Stroke & Distance was in use, it comes with a two-stroke penalty in itself, rather than one, and then we'd need to figure out whether or not the player used reasonable judgment to determine where the original ball was lost. If he did so, there are no other penalties. In case he didn't, it would be a serious breach of playing from a wrong place and the player would be penalised two strokes and would need to play again from the correct place (from the relief area determined by the found ball). In that case the player would be playing his 6th stroke.

[Augster]

What do you mean by “unplayable area”. If it’s a penalty area, he has to abide by penalty area relief. 
 

If it’s just an area that isn’t marked as a PA, woods for example, he has to go back to the tee for lost ball or drop under 2 penalty strokes if local rule E5 was in use. 

[antip]

12 hours ago, jc4birdie said:

He searched for, most likely, the 3 min timeframe, but I know that he knew he wasn't searching anywhere near the correct area....he was setting up a pretext of "where" he'd drop.  

 

I'm asking what the ruling is on the incorrectly dropped ball that was played, knowing he was a 9i ahead of where his ball went into the unplayable area.  What should've happened is clear....he could have found his ball had he not been trying to BS the group by "looking" way up the hole....he'd have dropped in the fairway adjacent to where his ball was laying unplayable, hitting his 4th.

 

It was social golf, so no sense in pushing the issue.  It's just that I don't know what the penalty should've been on the dropped ball, given the obvious infraction of taking that 9i of extra distance from the general area where the errant ball clearly landed, and that I found his ball after he'd dropped and proceeded.

This only gets me part of the way there, it suggests a search took place and nothing was found within 3 minutes but you haven't guided on whether MLR E-5 is in place. So I have two answers:

A. If MLR E-5 is in place:

Player has put another ball another ball in play where he estimates to be the correct relief area. That gets 2 strokes penalty under MLR E-5, ie stroke from there is the fourth. Another player (that would be you) believes the place played from is incorrect (by a long way). Your only option in regular (competition/tournament) play is to register that you believe it is a wrong position and take that view to the Committee for them to consider. Social play, your only real option is to say you believe he is way out of position and note it is 2 stroke penalty, not one.

B. If MLR E-5 is NOT in place:

The player's stroke with the dropped ball is from a wrong place and a serious breach so doesn't count and he must return to the tee, next stroke is number 5. That comprises the original tee stroke plus 3 penalty strokes, being an S&D penalty and an additional general penalty for playing from a wrong place.